linso, as Kevin Mclean mentions, if you don't like the cost of something, then don't go.
I don't like the cost of Football matches, so i stopped going.
£20 to £30 for 6 - 8 hours on the mountains seems reasonable to me, and some Areas already do Family Ticket deals.
Speaking as someone who has no kids, and this may sound harsh, if Alpha male or female is paying for partner and kids, then that IS their problem.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
one of the questions being asked was 'does SkiScot miss out in the long run by not having really good family ticket deals? The thinking being that, if your kids learn to ski, they will become self paying adult skiers at some time and so on....discuss! '
Errrr.... all 5 Scottish ski resorts do have family day ticket of some sort.
Have you actually checked any of the resort web sites for their price list ?
With family day pass it, roughly, works out that one kid goes free (nevis range is £75 for 2+2).
For some resorts all under 5s are free.
There are also discounted kids / family season passes.
Especially for local kids, or those in the various ski clubs, who get really cheap deals.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
bargain, can go in yer slippers and always see the bottom of the hill:
the cheek of them Jocks charging £1.80 more AND you have to be out in the cold aw day
just mounted up santy's pressies today, taking them for a spin on new years day, should cost me about a tenner (based on a reasonable estimate of my season pass aggregate this year)
Roga - Even at Cairngorm by far the vast majority of skiers are from local area. At a rough guess at least 90% of Cairngorm skiers are within day trip-able distance. With out doubt that is the core market - those able to take advantage when the snow and weather conditions turn good.
Yes, some people come from further afield, and that is great. However the simple fact is that Scotland is not, and never has been, a big destination resort for skiing. And there is nothing wrong with that. Lets not forget that 5 million people live in Scotland!
I don't generally disagree with that, however that's not what you said above and I'd be including parts of the north of England as being within day trip-able distance (I know people who do it)!
Obviously outwith holidy periods the vast majority are from within Scotland but at the moment I'd say 50 to 60% of people skiing at Cairngorm are from England (asked a few guys in ski school today and they estimated similar figures to me!), in ski school the number is probably bigger in many lessons at the moment.
Given this and the poor level of publicity/advertising (or do you think it's good?) I'd suggest these numbers could be even greater and that's what makes the thrust of your argument, unless I'm misunderstanding it, mistaken IMHO.
Leaving aside skiers from outwith Scotland there's also a serious need to publicise what's on offer in Scotland - for example I was asked today by a young (late teen/early 20s) skier from Inverness whether there would be much skiing after December/January. He had a great day today (his first time on Sottish snow having skied a few years ago with his school abroad) and didn't have a clue how long the Scottish season typically lasted or where to get information about conditions etc.
Quote:
Most people wouldn't even dream of booking a ski holiday to Poland / southern Norway or a small resort in the Jura for example ?
Though I am sure there is also sometimes great skiing there too
Many people go skiing in Bulgaria, is that so different to say Poland? However you really do need to put the straw men away and accept nobody is suggesting Scottish sking is an alternative to week/fortnights booked well ahead to the Alps or elsewhere, the point you need to either accept or argue against is that the market could be expanded if Scotland was publicised as a viable short trip/weekend destination, particularly if people are willing to be more oportunistic in their booking habits.
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Quote:
IMHO marketing is dire, investment is sometimes made in the wrong places (certainly at some ski areas) and day to day running and customer service could sometimes be better although I've only ever had complaints about one ski area in particular I have to admit!
Rightly or wrongly it seems to have become acceptable to bash CML online.
Ah well, if you're accusing me of CML bashing I really can't win - I've been flamed elsewhere for suggesting during one of the bashing frenzies that a more understanding attitude and constructive attitude might be better and have been 'jokingly' accused of being in the CML fan club for posting positive comments on Colin's blog.
I use one ski area more than the others so yeah surprise, surprise, I've had the odd gripe - that's not bashing it's simply being honest IMHO and I'd suggest constructively made comments and criticisms are more useful than keeping shtum - again having suggested that elsewhere I've ended up being flamed!
I agree that bashing is almost a matter of course for some and most doing the bashing are unwilling to admit any positives or to comment positively when good things happen. I suspect if it had been Cairngorm that delayed opening to later in December citing too little snow on lower slopes and lack of trained Winter staff rather than Glencoe there would have been a right old bashing frenzy. Same goes for some of the things that go on at other ski areas!
Quote:
(my only gripe is the core-lifts policy but that is another topic). This then quickly translates to a general perception that "all other Scottish ski centres are badly managed and dont know what they are doing". This myth needs to be busted ASAP.
Totally agree with that last bit and it's something some of us are doing here regularly in a great many threads!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Haggis_Trap,
yes checked websites, dont forget i said i go to glencoe - yep local kids can get great deals.
'really good family ticket deals' ................?? are they?? (agreed, nevis is not bad)
'if your kids learn to ski........become self paying adults............discuss. (you all missed that bit, or didn't think it worth discussing)
I suppose i am looking at ways of making skiing more accessible and to expand year on year the numbers who take up skiing. Perhaps i naively thought that price might be a significant issue stopping families getting into skiing and that those fortunate to ski already may have an interest in expanding the sport.
as i said before.discuss, but try to be constructive.
Roga - the official figures for 'furth of Scotland' skiers is < 10%.
(even at Cairngorm)
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
For an example of the creative pricing i am talking about see the chillfactore website (i am no fan of this fridge but...)
They have a new Chief Exec who came from Alton Towers theme park and understands the concept of increasing footfall (and therefore direct and indirect spend) and of tempting and locking in new customers. Watch the special offers and discounts flow in order to 'busy up' the quieter times.
eg first 2 hours of day = 15 quid, last 2 hours 15 quid. 2for1 lessons etc (these are big discounts on their normal huge prices)
Now you may say this will not work or is not relevent or workable in SkiScot - but it will be interesting to watch the chillfactores slope visitor numbers over the next year.
Roga's comments about the number of 'locals' using SkiScot has rather put the cat amongst pidgeons - is it correct? If so it strengthens the discussion around better advertising in the North - and the short stay 'package' type' break - especially with all the airport hassle of the last 2 years. Just how much market is SkiScot missing out on?
ooh more to discuss.....come on Haggis, critical discussion please.
After all it is free
After all it is free
I have added all I can... Primarily that Scottish skiing doesn't not have huge resources, and that the vast majority of skiers are day-trippers or weekenders within easy driving distance.
The issue of marketing is an interesting one. At the end of the day there surprisingly isn't a huge budget for this...
The recent Ski-Scotland advert before the Warren Miller film tour was a good one...
One thing ski-scotland simply don't have is massive budget for tv campaigns, newspaper adverts or corporate branding. However with rise of the internet and social networking sites etc I don't think its an issue. So long as the resorts keep their ski reports updated (which they do) and the customers notified by sms / email / twitter / facebook (which they do) then people know there is a product available once snow arrives. Last years record skier numbers (the most skier days since 1994) are testament to this. So long as it snows, and people are kept updated with current conditions, then Scottish skiing will thrive.
You don't need slick corporate marketing or branding - because people love posting ski photos of their trips on facebook, chatting on ski fourms, or telling their work mates how much fun their weekend was. In many ways skiing is of very few products that promotes itself ? To take an extreme example, Chamonix has a marketing budget of almost £0 (yup zero - seriously!).
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Haggis_Trap,
good summary and i like the vids
thanks - really enjoyed the discussion AND you have changed some of my thoughts and views - which is brill
i feel quite educated about SkiScot now.
This is Snowheads at its best.
all the best
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Out of curiosity I've just pulled the accounts for Nevis and Glencoe. They make interesting reading although I suspect that the available set of Glencoe accounts relate to the change of ownership and maybe distorted.
However the accounts for Nevis, to Sept 09, were positive showing a profit, and included a marketing spend of £30k or so. Interestingly they also give a break down of sales income & expenditure but of course it's for Winter and Summer.
In the Chairman's report they note that trying to get the message across that Spring skiing is possible is a hard task. Accounts are available from the companies house web site for £1.
I still maintain that improved weather patterns represent a golden opportunity for Scottish resorts to expand their client base for Short Breaks to the wider UK Market. However, to ensure repeat business from new clients the resorts will need to improve their operations & customer service, BUT this is also an opportunity to gain extra profitability. If they take up the challenge there is a good chance that increased cash flows will fund renewed infrastructure.
For Social Networking to be a success in attracting wider business, the resorts have to ensure that visitors have the best experience they can.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Quote:
improved weather patterns... investment ... golden opportunity
One excellent winter does not equal improved weather patterns...
Even in the 1970s and 1980s Scottish winters have always been variable.
Some years good, some years bad, and hopefully a few more amazing ones such as 2009/10.
Scotland is not the alps - but its still a great place to ski when conditions allow.
If we get a run of good winters then I have no doubt the investment will come (i,e new chairs in Coire na Ciste are being seriously discussed now there is some money in the bank)
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Haggis_Trap, Fingers Crossed
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
I suspect if it had been Cairngorm that delayed opening to later in December citing too little snow on lower slopes and lack of trained Winter staff rather than Glencoe there would have been a right old bashing frenzy.
Given CML has pretty much 10x the full time staff and doesn't need to operate anything extra to offer skiing on the mid-mountain it's hardly a fair comparison? Off course pre-funicular you could ski if you wanted too off the chairlift, irrespective of whether the ski area was 'open' - the closed system is the root cause of much of the grief directed CML's way at the bookends of the season!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Haggis_Trap, I've read this thread twice now and you've valiantly defended Scottish skiing against all critics. In your opinion is there anything Scottish resorts could do, with minimal financial outlay, to improve the experience (and future repeat business) of skiers?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I don't understand why the hotels don't get their act together. They could do mini breaks of 2 or 3 nights, pre-order lift tickets/ski hire/lessons and minibus clients to the slopes. Of course it would be weather dependent but refunds could be offered it slopes were closed. Minibus trips could also be offered to other attractions in the area, if necessary.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
you've valiantly defended Scottish skiing against all critics. In your opinion is there anything Scottish resorts could do, with minimal financial outlay, to improve the experience
Obviously Scottish skiing is not perfect, and there will always peak weekends when the lifts, car parks, ski hire and cafe are very busy.
That is the nature of the game - and when well trained staff can really help to keep things flowing. Usually they are good...
As with any business it the lowest paid staff that end up being the face of the company.
Customers can go along way to improving the quality of their own Scottish experience too. Just simple stuff - like learning to read the weather forecasts, or turning up early if you need to hire skis on a busy weekend etc.
Happy New Year All
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Roga - the official figures for 'furth of Scotland' skiers is < 10%.
(even at Cairngorm)
"furth"?
I get the point though, where are these figures published, would be interested to see how they gather this information.
However, if it's less than 10%, it should and could be 10% and if it was 10% it could and should be greater! Amazing though given most of these must be people who holiday at Aviemore, giving a far greater proportion here! Are there historical figures, I'm willing to bet a fiver if there are the proportion would be greater 20 or 30 years ago so and flights getting more expensive and the credit crunch biting there could be every opportunity for expanding that market.
I notice you've ignored the related point (and many other ones), namely your erroneous assertion that:
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Scotland's market always has been home based skiers - even in the 1970s and 1980s.
The statemement is complete cobblers unless you add the word "most" in there!!
C'mon Doug, isn't it about time you admitted for once you might have made a small error?
Happy Hogmanay!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
maggi, the Crianlarich Hotel set the cat amongst the pigeons a bit last year with the Skiers Special, in the end about 10% of Glencoe's skier days passed through the hotel so others have sat up and taken notice. The Stewart Hotel, Appin, Isles of Glencoe Hotel and the Moorings in Fort William all have some good offers for skiers heading to the West.
Time to hit the Hogamany Bash along the street, so be good(ish) tonight everyone!
I am a new fan to scottish skiing. On its day it can be every bit as good as France.
I also a fan of the relaxed piste marking. They all merge into one at various points down the mountain.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
It's been a while since I asked Doug (Haggis Trap) for details of where he got the less than 10% figures above from and since I have had no answer, and in the interim have spoken to some knowledgable snowsports folk who have been 'puzzled' by said figures and where they came from too, I have to conclude that the figures are a red herring so all my original points stand, not that they didn't even if the figures were reliable lol!
Cairngorm's market, and to a lesser extent that at the other ski areas, has never soley been day trippers/locals and given current fuel prices the day trip market is increasingly likely to be squeezed. That being the case it is abundantly clear that the longer stay market (weekends, 3/4 days) needs to be expanded and in fact opportunities to that might be more successful given the current situation with fuel which might force people to consider longer stays as an alternative to lots of short journeys. Aviemore for one is well placed to take advantage of this market given the abundance of accomodation options but would need more joined up marketing and perhaps offer more discounted rooms too.
On another point, the cost of lift tickets, in the light of the recent VAT rises the issue of tax on lift tickets has I believe recently been discussed in goverment circles with the interim conclusion being that whilst an Alpine style zero rate is highly unlikely a lower rate of say 5% might be a possibility. Apparently Nevis Rance have commented that this would allow them to take around £4 off the price of a day ticket if all savings were passed on to the customer. That's a good indication of how much current rates are affecting the competiveness of Scottish ski areas and I'd urge anyone reading this to support any calls for lower rates on ski lift tickets.
Roga - the 10% figure comes from a Ski Scotland survey.
Try emailing them if you need more exact details
Though as ever you can prove anything with statistics.
The important point is that Scotland's core market has always been primarily local skiers. (even in the 1970s and 1980s!). By far the vast majority of skiers on Scottish slopes are opportunistic weekend warriors. Generally this is people who live in Scotland, or perhaps the north of England, who can travel for a day or weekend trip at relatively short notice when conditions look good. This is in total contrast to the mega alpine resorts - where holiday makers often book months in advance and fly in from all over Europe.
Where Scottish skiing sometimes trips itself is when it tries to pretend to be something that its not.
Lets face it - Aviemore will never be a destination resort like Aspen, Andora or Avoriaz.
But, like I said all along, its still a great place to ski
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Ski Scotlands research tends to agree with you Roga.
Key figures Source
Scottish 69%
70% had skied in Scotland last winter
I'm going to sit on the fence though as I'm not convinced 31% of visiters at Glencoe, Nevis, Glenshee & the Lecht are from elsewhere. Would love to see the full report.
After all it is free
After all it is free
^ Plenty English people live in Scotland (especially Edinburgh!).
The important bit of information from that link is that "most of these respondents visited on a day trip"
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
Roga - the 10% figure comes from a Ski Scotland survey.
Try emailing them if you need more exact details
Though as ever you can prove anything with statistics.
Agree there and what you get depends on methods of sampling, types of questions and wording as well as a great many other factors.
Quote:
The important point is that Scotland's core market has always been primarily local skiers. (even in the 1970s and 1980s!).
I agree but that's a very different proposition to what you originally said:
Haggis_Trap originally said wrote:
Scotland's market always has been home based skiers - even in the 1970s and 1980s.
Quote:
By far the vast majority of skiers on Scottish slopes are opportunistic weekend warriors. Generally this is people who live in Scotland, or perhaps the north of England, who can travel for a day or weekend trip at relatively short notice when conditions look good. This is in total contrast to the mega alpine resorts - where holiday makers often book months in advance and fly in from all over Europe.
I agree but that doesn't mean the weekend and short trip market can't be expanded.
Quote:
Where Scottish skiing sometimes trips itself is when it tries to pretend to be something that its not.
Lets face it - Aviemore will never be a destination resort like Aspen, Andora or Avoriaz.
But, like I said all along, its still a great place to ski
Agreed!
scottishskier wrote:
Ski Scotlands research tends to agree with you Roga.
Key figures Source
Scottish 69%
70% had skied in Scotland last winter
So their surveys vary wildly from year to year it would seem!
Anecdotally speaking though it's clear to anyone working on the hill in holiday periods (like me) that vast numbers of visitors are staying for more than a day and many of these are from south of the border so my proposition is that there's a market there - might not be the majority over any given season but it's an important proportion of the whole and could be expanded.
Quote:
I'm going to sit on the fence though as I'm not convinced 31% of visiters at Glencoe, Nevis, Glenshee & the Lecht are from elsewhere. Would love to see the full report.
I'd agree with you there, perhaps Glenshee might pick up quite a few and The Lecht some but I don't see Nevis picking up that many and Glencoe (the best kept secret in Scottish skiing) probably has very few indeed. I'd guess that the Cairngorm figures are very big on comparison with the others and that if combined with all the others skew the number of visitors from outside Scotland and probably account for most of them.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Haggis_Trap wrote:
^ Plenty English people live in Scotland (especially Edinburgh!).
Very true ... and you might add 'and Aviemore'
Depends what the original question was though does it not, e.g.:
"Are you English?"
"Have you travelled from England?"
And the conclusions that are drawn, e.g.: travelling from England = English!
I travel from England (at the moment) but I'm not English!
Quote:
The important bit of information from that link is that "most of these respondents visited on a day trip"
Yeah, most but not all - 69/70% is most but that doesn't mean we can ignore the other 30% odd percent, nor that that percentage can't be expanded!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Haggis_Trap wrote:
^ Plenty English people live in Scotland (especially Edinburgh!).
Fair point. 88% of the population in Scotland is Scottish so you could contrive that home based skiers = 81%. Seems a bit more ball park to me.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
Anecdotally speaking though it's clear to anyone working on the hill in holiday periods (like me) that vast numbers of visitors are staying for more than a day and many of these are from south of the border so my proposition is that there's a market there - might not be the majority over any given season but it's an important proportion of the whole and could be expanded.
CairnGorm is in a different situation from the other areas because there is a large repeat visitation as a potential market due the level of timeshare ownership in Aviemore, which is esp prevelent at Christmas and the weeks that can fall over half-term.
In last year's CML accounts the Chairman's report made a point that non-skiing visitation fell last winter and thus the non-skiing product clearly needed investment.
Given the above point and the fact there is a huge captive audience in Strathspey to tap into during the Christmas, Half Term & Easter holidays (whether they came with the intention to ski or not), that with such good skiing conditions a good chunk of the lost 'train ride' market was actually to be found in the more lucrative ski market?
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
