altis, that looks very much like what my instructor was demonstrating to me. The big thing was to keep the shoulders square down the mountain, he had me doing it with my poles balanced on the backs of my wrists to try and keep me straight. It wasn't the easiest drill that I'd ever done.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Megamum, Probably easier than side-slipping the whole way down from the Plan Boe gondola to the bar in Arraba... all on one leg because my legs were so screwed that I couldn't get them to turn on demand in the alternately slushy/icy moguls that littered the piste all the way down. I couldn't even change sides/legs as the left leg flatly refused to do anything at all on demand. Not an experience I'd care to repeat, but it got me down.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Schuss in Boots, On the occasions I've resorted to side slipping for a longer distance I have a marked preference for doing it facing left with right leg down the mountain - no doubt it's my strongest leg. The problem arrives once you have exhausted the strongest leg as it sounds like you found out in Arraba!!
Snow patrol turns (to reach real steep spots to help somebody).
Just another tool!
Means to be extremlly forward, that your skis bend in the middle and their tails are up the snow
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 28-02-11 23:12; edited 1 time in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Megamum, it's not an easy exercise. Mrs A has great problems with it.
To pull it off convincingly, you'll need delicate edge control and a strong awareness of rotation.
Definitely one worth practising many times on an easy slope before you need to use it in earnest.
On the occasions I've resorted to side slipping for a longer distance I have a marked preference for doing it facing left with right leg down the mountain - no doubt it's my strongest leg.
that's my preference too, and would always be my choice when it really matters. An instructor once suggested to me that whenever I start skiing - on any slope - I make my first turn the other way, and stop the other way too, when it's not crucial, and also practice lots of sideslips the other side. So I do try to do all that - when I remember.
cbr7, any videos of that "snow patrol" manoevre?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
altis, I don't think I cracked it, but the instructor started to work hard with me on it down some quieter red slopes as a tool to help with steeper bits. I think I also had a starter on it with IO skiing at HH in the Autumn IIRC. I couldn't do it in as small a corridor as the chap on that video, but did manage in in a far smaller space than I expected to. The instructor told me to turn, edges in and just about stop, then to turn again in the opposite direction and edges in and stop again (repeat as reqd) - it felt very like that video looked and must have been leading towards a very similar result IMO. I will have to do some more practice and see if I can manage proper braccage (which I'm sure I can't spell and its on the other page to copy ) I also used the very short turns and approached that braccage/hockey stop type turn on many occasions in Les Arcs to find the narrow corridors of slightly more skiable snow on the very sheer scraped pistes that we had that week. It really put the lessons into practice and I was very pleased with the outcome esp. as I grew into my larger wider skis that I started on last year and was actually managing to get them turned without problem.
pam w, I should discipline myself to do something similar!
After all it is free
After all it is free
Megamum wrote:
I couldn't do it in as small a corridor as the chap on that video, but did manage in in a far smaller space than I expected to. The instructor told me to turn, edges in and just about stop, then to turn again in the opposite direction and edges in and stop again (repeat as reqd)
If you're struggling to turn like that in a narrow corridor it's either because you're not rotating your skis quickly enough, or you're using too much edge grip so the skis can't skid very easily. As these two things are related it might well be a bit of both.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
rob@rar, it sounds like you recognise what he was trying to get me to do I don't know that I was failing as bad as really struggling, but I couldn't do it as fluidly as the instructor when we practised, however when free skiing either get it right or ski the sheer stuff did rather concentrate the mind to try and do it in as small a space as possible. The trouble is you can't see yourself doing it to know if you were getting it right, though I did manage to get down some fairly iffy looking slopes trying it. I think it was probably too much edges as much as anything is there a trick I could try to free that aspect of the turn up?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Megamum wrote:
I think it was probably too much edges as much as anything is there a trick I could try to free that aspect of the turn up?
Having seen you ski I think that's probably right. I don't think there's any guaranteed trick to develop those skills, but keep practicing side-slips, tighty, skiddy turns. I think for you the main thing is to understand that you are trying to do: you want to make the skis skid not grip.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
The bit I find tricky is maintaining an even slip around the turn and tend to put most of the speed reduction into the end of the turn when the skis are sideways, this tends to force my upper body round as well.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
tiffin,
Quote:
The bit I find tricky is maintaining an even slip around the turn and tend to put most of the speed reduction into the end of the turn when the skis are sideways...
Good steered turns (with a consistent degree of pivot throughout the arc) are more difficult to learn (shallower learning curve) than good carved turns (steeper learning curve). On a gentle slope at slow speed, practise feeling for the centre of the inside edge of the new outside ski really early in the turn, and being careful not to use too much edge, standing on this patiently whilst ensuring to stay centre balanced around the whole turn. This can be done skiing just with outside ski dominant to begin with, graduating to outside ski only. You can then go on to varying the rate of pivot you apply for each turn but always spreading the amount of pivot evenly throughout the arc. Remember to finish the turn. Then go on to moderate slopes and moderate speeds. Used together with appropriate movement and timing it will eventually allow you to control speed very fluidly and safely on "ice" (hardpack) without resorting to classic short swings (if your skis have edges!).
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
On the original question. Picture a road about 3m wide, with edges that are unusable and unskiable. Steep for a road but gentle for a piste. Covered in hard packed snow, but not ice, with occasional footprints and other undulations. A very long road. How do the experts ski down such a road? I snowploughed down most of it, I felt in control, my speed was OK and was consistent. The idea of short swings or (as someone wrote above) "linked hockey stops" down such a long road sounds like very hard work with hundreds of opportunities to mess up a turn and get hurt.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I didn't expect this thread to go to 4+ pages, clearly I am not the only person that is finding the tips and advice useful
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I once snowploughed my way down a very long cat-track. Took so much effort that I got the most appalling cramp in my gluteus maximus. Definitely would have been better to put a series of skiddy turns in as that takes significantly less effort.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Adrian, 3m wide with unskiable sides so 2m? skiable width is very narrow - I don't think I can remember such a path of any length on piste. Not sure how an expert would ski down such a path but I guess you could plough, do linked side-slips, or do shortish fastish skiddy turns. If the sides were raised up but skiable, depending on the traffic, you could ski the side ridge with short skidded turns. If you could ski the whole 3m width and get an edge, if "gentle for a piste" and not a lot of traffic, you could rail whilst standing tall and predominantly weighting the outside edge of the inside ski. The latter is my favourite technique for cat tracks if there isn't too much traffic as it's the least tiring and the most fun. Not the kind of track the OP was talking about though.
edited to better address the poster's point
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Adrian, no expert, but variations of edge rolls, side slips(of various angles), riding up/down the edges, short turns, snowplow seem to get me down most roads pretty comfortably... occasionally tuck turns or straight running but mostly not needed or too fast for traffic... Sometimes longer turns with a little bit of skid angle rather than the edge rolls... Usually no hockey stops needed as speed checking not required to that degree...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar, you need to spend more time on Central Theme ! I had a similar experience to Adrian once (Klosters IIRC), where my tails hit both banks of the trench down the road if I went into too wide a snowplough - and it went on for at least 2km . That required some diligent application of A-framing to get the edges on enough to get any kind of braking effect, and my legs were toast at the end of it .
Having spent most of the last 5 months snowploughing down Dendix at ~0 mph I was really wondering whether this was doing my skiing any good. This year though I have lost count of the number of <3m wide icy/bumpy switchback tracks I've had to get down at the end of some great off-piste runs (Verbier, La Grave, Serre Chevalier), and that [practice has paid off big time. Fast turns and side slips are a definite possibility, but there's a non-zero chance of catching an edge somewhere - particularly when the track is extremely bumpy - which is not advisable if there's a serious drop to one side of the track. If the snow is grippy and bumpy then traditional bumps technique - scraping down the back side of the bump and maybe some absopttion on the front side of the bump works. When it gets icier though, put in an efficient snowplough and you can get down most of them in pretty good shape - just make sure you get the hips as far forward as possible and you get rid of the thigh burn, and it's a pretty sweet feeling being balanced and stacked over the hips and feet. If bumpy you need serious independent movement of each leg to absorp a bump on one leg while the other is on flat snow. If you get to somewhere that needs a bit more braking rotate one of the legs in to make a parallel sideslip/bump turn for a brief while and then back out again to the plough when you've slowed down a bit and before you start drifting off to the side of the track. Works really well.
rob@rar, you need to spend more time on Central Theme
Wash your mouth out! I haven't done any CT stuff for many months My buttock cramp was many moons ago.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Thanks for the ideas. GrahamN's snowplough tale closely matches my experience and I, also, was concerned about catching an edge. The road I am thinking of was mostly flat, the verges quite variable between rocks, grass, bare tarmac, soft stuff over any of the above, and precipice. The road was not U-shaped so could not sideslip along the edge.
slikedges, would you please clarify the phrase "you could rail whilst standing tall and predominantly weighting the outside edge of the inside ski".
little tiger, would you please clarify the term "edge rolls".
Adrian, work on your 180 sideslip skills on a groomed trail, so you can then use it on that cat road. 180 sideslips consist of doing a sideslip with your skis point to one side of the slope, then quickly pivoting your skis 180 degrees so you're suddenly sideslipping with your skis pointing to the other side of the slope, all the while maintaining a straight down the falline path of travel. When you learn to do 180 sideslips, you could ski that road straight down, pivoting into a sideslip whenever speed gets too high, then pivoting back into going straight again once you've reduced speed back below your comfort zone threshold. Compared to trying to wedge the whole dang thing, it would be a very relaxing way to descend it.
This is a move I even use on open trails. When skiing at high speed, and approaching a blind drop, I'll throw in a 180 sideslip mid turn, drop my speed a tad, peak over the precipice to make sure all is clear, then pivot the skis straight again and continue my turn.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Adrian, if the path is flat across, makes it easier to snowplough or do short skiddy turns and even if not U-shaped a series of linked side slips works well if steep enough. Good job such narrow trails are rarely encountered on piste! By rail I mean skiing on the edges and riding the sidecut of the ski without greatly influencing the ski radius by pressing or edging the skis much. On shallow terrain this is best done by standing tall on the outside edge of the inside ski with skis close together - feels almost like skiing on inside ski alone.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 2-03-11 20:51; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
slikedges, I was confused too but I get you now. For me, little left/right switches where your skis are close together & get angled back and forth 30 to 45 degrees or so to the fall-line whilst torso & motion are directly down the fall-line just isn't tiring and it's also quite a lot of fun, a lot more fun than trying to turn, sideslip or hockey-stop your way down. When you wrote 'railing', I too thought you were meant using the railtracks & just couldn't imagine in what circumstances that narrow, steep and busy cat tracks like the little black bit at the top of the Aiguille Rouge referenced by megamum could ever be suitable for that kind of 'railing' let alone be much fun for you or anyone else around you.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
moffatross, Well. I'd like to think of it as a black, but the path route I refererenced from the top of Auguille rouge with the sheer edge was marked as a red (though it joined a bit of red/black once it was done). I looked enviously at the real black section (v. enviously - it didn't have a sheer drop off!), but the red path with the sheer edge seemed the lesser of the two evils (but, believe me I got damn close to chancing my arm on the black as the red path looked so forbidding), there was just a zillion folks also trying to do the black that put me off it - if it had of been empty I'd have chanced side slipping it I think.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Check wedeln is recommended by Joubert the master.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Megamum, honestly, you didn't miss much. The top bit, weaving between lots of people standing along its length all looking very confused as if they'd never seen a bump before doesn't give you much chance to appreciate the view and I suspect that would have been a better one on the red track underneath anyway. It does open up a bit but even if you'd managed to get off the cable car first or somehow when it wasn't busy, it'd be blink and it's over stuff all the same before rejoining the red. You'd have passed Genepy/Varet which are nice runs into the bowl on the way down to Villaroger from the summit but having to use that bottleneck of a cable car to get to them was a pain in the rear. The Lanchettes chair was a much less busy option for getting you into the same bowl (albeit a bit lower) or for the run through the forests down to Villaroger and for the wild & bonkers Drosset through the scrub and over the road to Pre St Esprit. They were all immensely more satisfying for me than the run off the top, with or without its black bit.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
For those interested, we had a bit of a track for a runout today, so here's how at least one professional does it - and this is pretty typical in my experience. Mix of short radius turns, a bit of side-slipping on occasion, and a lot of snow-ploughing when more care is required and/or the track ahead is not too clear. (The full runout was actually about a good 20 minutes of this). This was actually pretty mild for this year - I've had much bumpier and much icier, and some a bit narrower too.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
GrahamN, wow! that was narrow, rather you than me I think. That's kind of how I tackle things - a bit of everything, but I tend to be doing it where there is wee bit more room than that
moffatross, It does seem rather tight and abrupt at the very top, before the red path joins it at the end of it's second stretch. The other nasty looking bit occurs very soon after at another narrow intersection that was littered with small moguls and bodies when we got there. I don't quite know how I got down that bit of it still standing, but I did - the rest of the black/red and red sections past the mid station and on down were a piece-of-cake in comparison!! That was last year though. We didn't go up this year on account of the fact that we didn't know how 'sheer' some bits might be, though we did hear tales that it was where the most skiable snow was being found it still didn't encourage us up there.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
GrahamN, nice video. From the noises the camera(wo?)man appears to be doing lots of turns or lots of changes of ski edge at the start, but later on the noises are quite consistent. Suggesting to me that the camera(wo?)man changed to a steady snowplough. I think I have done that track a couple of times after skiing from the Foglietta, it is long and challenging with all the little changes of angle and the occasional tree root etc.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Megamum, when I was there it was all nice, chalky, compacted powder but as you note, way too busy to enjoy.
GrahamN, that looks very similar to the traverse back through the trees, Chancel side of La Grave.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
moffatross, you might mean the same or a similar thing but to clarify, I do mean leaving clean lines. It's a bit of a thread drift as it wouldn't be appropriate/possible in the situation the OP (Megamum) described. For the situation Adrian described (?2m wide, gradient "gentle for a piste", "mostly flat" across) it's possible if there isn't much traffic though you might pick up a bit of speed! I first noticed the technique not long after I started skiing again several years ago. Two ESF instructors were returning along the not narrow but pretty busy green back to Courchevel 1850 chatting together in a relaxed manner but passing everyone without having to tuck, skate or step. I noticed they were standing very tall and with a very narrow stance and were leaving pencil lines. I tried to copy them but couldn't. It wasn't until a couple of years later, learning to rail both edges on one ski that I realised how it was done!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Adrian, yes, that was my headcam, and I was doing mostly parallel short turns to start with, then more snowplough later on - with the odd bit of parallel to give the hip muscles a rest.
moffatross, actually rather different in character. The LG traverses tend to be much bumpier, and more multiple single skier deep rut lines (i.e. way narrower, but can jump from rut to rut for a bit of variation) - requiring more active skiing and snowploughs are not really an option. I may be able to upload something of those traverses (from last year) this evening. This year (in Feb) the Chancel side was quite fun to ski as there had been no snow for so long that there were dozens of different ruts all through the woods, and you could pick and choose with gay abandon, although 'grip was at a premium' in places. The Vallon side was a bit trickier as there were fewer options and the tracks were all pretty icy.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
slikedges, no I don't think so. I'm going to have to experiment with that, but only somewhere where I can't do any harm to anyone around me.
GrahamN, the drop left and the darkness in the trees evoked memories from last Easter nonetheless. I actually remember the traverse Vallons side being rather less exhausting, despite more twists, more dead ends and more tree roots but less demanding perhaps because it was the last run of the day and a cold beer was waiting in the village.
moffatross, the feeling is akin to stepping up onto an uphill ski and balancing on its outside edge, try it, it's a really good technique for getting about quickly and effortlessly on gentle gradients, though because it's inside ski it does take some getting used to initially
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Hmmm, faced with a cat track like the one in GrahamN's video, I'd be putting in side slips to take off the speed, but they'd all be with the left ski as the lower ski - so that the failsafe result is to fall into the mountain, not over the edge!
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Not an experience I'd care to repeat, but it got me down. 
I don't know that I was failing as bad as really struggling, but I couldn't do it as fluidly as the instructor when we practised, however when free skiing either get it right or ski the sheer stuff did rather concentrate the mind to try and do it in as small a space as possible. The trouble is you can't see yourself doing it to know if you were getting it right, though I did manage to get down some fairly iffy looking slopes trying it. I think it was probably too much edges as much as anything is there a trick I could try to free that aspect of the turn up?
! I had a similar experience to Adrian once (Klosters IIRC), where my tails hit both banks of the trench down the road if I went into too wide a snowplough - and it went on for at least 2km 
. That required some diligent application of A-framing to get the edges on enough to get any kind of braking effect, and my legs were toast at the end of it 
.
My buttock cramp was many moons ago.
