Interesting News regarding the Eurotest

A snowHead

I agree with that. I think it should exist to allow there to be high end instructors and for me it would be more a case of is it correct to only have a limited time if your an ISIA. I personally love it when I see a lot of people passing at a test as its great to see the emotion and appreciate how hard they have worked to make it through.

My main gripe is whilst the ET remains candidates blaiming and claiming it to be impossible on other factors than there physical and skiing ability. Have they really done whats required to make sure its only about the skiing and not due to other factors?

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

stewart woodward, Can't see that attachment.

Unfortunately even with being able to travel to different countries to test and being allowed to do as many as they want a year (unlike other nations). The Pass rate for basi members is still very very low in comparison with the other nations, young and old alike.

Aple du huez this year 9% basi pass rate, compared to a 40%+ rate of french candidates.

And this includes a copious amount of younger guys that aren't quite at the level, feel bad saying that as one of our guys missed it by 0.04 sec and i feel thats close enough! hehe but line has to be drawn somewhere i guess. If there was a high percentage of young guys getting it there may be a stronger case for the age angle. but as it is i think its a hard argument to prove either way.

So maybe a move to increase the ET level percentage would be better and easier to argue like those have in this tread, using other sporting examples (not the golf one!). That may have more impact than the Age route which has been brought up and very quickly dismissed in meetings which JJC has been present in.

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If the purpose of ET is to determine if you're fit enough to keep up with clients or if you're technically proficient, the ISTD tech is plenty capable of doing these already. What then is its purpose? (of course we all know the answer to that one!)

But to be charitable, maybe it serves to provide one objective assessment or maybe it ensures a modicum of experience in a race course (may come in handy if a flavour of racing is requested by a client). If so it is set at too high a level and is not fit for purpose. If it were set at an appropriate level, it would not be so infamously the career limiting step for older aspiring instructors. Many of the best instructors are older instructors. This isn't just down to instructing experience but also down to maturity and perhaps what they may bring to their instructing from previous walks of life. If, as is apparently the case, the ET does discriminate disproportionately against older instructors so that those who are physically and technically up to performing the job are excluded, this isn't a level playing field and is illegal.

Obviously challenges that make demands on strength and fitness get harder with age and to suggest otherwise is disingenuous. If older instructors who are otherwise up to the mark are not to be effectively barred from making ISTD and if an age handicap is deemed too complicated to administer the obvious solution is simply to drop the level required for everyone to a more achievable one.

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jjc, I've seen folks say that they will 'worry about eurotest after passing ISTD'... to me this seems kind of backwards, as I see Eurotest as a measure of technical skills. I would have thought starting work on Eurotest would help with ISTD, and ISIA and v.v. This being the case I'd have thought starting to learn to race asap would be of benefit to allow time to get to grips with what it is going to take...

Am I being silly? or would more benefit from a longer term approach to the ET?

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Perhaps we are looking at this whole issue wrongly?

If were were to accept that the ET is a crucial and intergral requirement of the day to day abilities of the highest level of instructor.......

Then it is clear that this level of performance must be maintained and therefore the ET should not be a single, once in a lifetime requirement but a test that requires regular revalidation in order to continue to be able to teach in France.

I think BASI should actualy propose that very idea, and suggest that ESF must require a simmilar annual re testing Very Happy

if their instructors are to be able to continue teaching. I just wonder how long it would be before the ET was binned by the french if suddenly they faced the risk of being unable to work if they could not continue to meet its standard.

After all if it is a genuine and valid requirement to be able to teach then surely that ability must be maintained throughout a teacher/instructors working life?

I wonder just how such an about face would be viewed by the french as it would suddenly expose the test for what it truely is.

After all it is free

Can people with qualifications from other countries (ie NZ), take the the ET, without starting into the BASI system? If they passed would they be allowed to teach? I'm thinking about heading back to Europe to teach, but am not certain that I want to go through the BASI system, as it looks stupidly expensive.

little tiger, your spot on! the earlier you start the better, makes all the techs easier and teaching as you have a better understanding after training technique intensely.

it is hard when you think of how long the season is. to fit in basi courses, training for the courses, ET training, Work, maybe a Test and be able to pay for it all is tough.

I struggled with trying to complete ISTD asap as 2 courses i needed were on the same week, ended up doing the adaptive 2nd dsic and then coming back and doing telemark later as thats the one i wanted but couldn't do it as mountain safety clashed with it.

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jjc, yeah that is how I saw it... starting early you can take more time - but the working on ET will be part of working on ISIA/ISTD... Not racing at all until after ISIA/ISTD makes no sense to me... so much to learn and the basis is good technique - so start early and learn the two together...

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Well if you boys want changes made and BASI's support, i'd get about it asap. all the info was sent off to brussels in January to get the ET set as a standard in Europe and having the professional cardy thingy.... not really sure about that bit.

But test hasn't changed in 10 years (i think), it could be another 10 years before it changes again.

You know it makes sense.

that is interesting that basi have sent off stuff to brussels in january ,the membership are never made aware of such things so never really have much of a chance to put there point across ,unfortuanatly there are some people who have a vested interest in things remaining exactly as they are.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

you have to remember that for the french the et is the minium technical level required for further training at ensa,

its a one off test ,i have been to many and seen many differences ,for a candidate only just close to the level many different factors can make a huge difference (slope ,the set ,conditions under foot, weather and so on , a big physical guy will be generally quicker on a flatter gliding course than on a steep turny one .

somebody who misses by less than a tenth could find themselves a couple of seconds off a few days later somewhere else

if you have a bad run of this it can take one or two seasons and a huge amount of money because when your running close you have to go to everyone just in case the luck comes to you, this is not an objective test . its a filter which in reality is run by the french ,it works for them because they want young stagieres to make there esf syndicates to work .

for basi they are not strong enough to dare side with isia because to many near the top dont want to rock the boat and thats why people that find that they have run out of money,broken themselves or decide the risk is to high , and have to mention the legal angles and so on,

A snowHead

A snowHead

Personally from what I've observed I think the Level 4 Tech is harder than the ET, and I know there are others who feel the same.

JJC do you know many people who've passed the Tech but struggle to pass the ET? I've heard more stories in recent years of it being the other way round.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I can only think of two and both are really close. I see it more as a psychological barrier for one of those candidates that we have worked with rather than a skiing problem. It’s a shame we can’t use our training times as evidence but you have to be able to do it on the day. Fortunately he isn’t deterred and I have no doubt it’s a question of when he gets it than will he (he is nearly 40) fingers crossed for them at the end of season tests as they both really deserve it.

I would like to think the level 4 tech should be harder than the ET. You have to ski consistently well over a week in all kinds of terrain. If you can ski good bumps, variables, long turns and short turns at ISTD standard being able to ski clean long turns between gates for 1 minute shouldn’t be to much of an ask.

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jjc, interesting to hear about the variations in pass rates of BASI versus other candidates. any theories as to why? is it simply that most alpine bods have raced from a young age?

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yep i agree with that (so if you have not started training sl or gs until your in your early 30s good luck cos its gonna be really tough)

which is why it has ageism issues, it helps your tech skiing hugely ,but in 6 years of teaching i never had a client that required my level to be at eurotest levels .

we are trying to be ski intructors and funnily enough most of the work is mid to bottom end

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stewart woodward, I have googled you and now know exactly who you are. I have been nothing but helpful and kind to you at no cost at every test i have seen you at (regardless of the rude un informed comments you have made in person and also now on this forum) because I and the rest of the BASI openers genuinely want to see BASI members passing and help! I have not said anything to personally attack you at any point and wont! I am just trying to help shed light on the reasons I believe the test exists and help those who want to have a good crack at it without having them put off before they have even tried because they are 30+.

If you want a personal conversation on the ET and help on the real reasons you’re not passing feel free to private message me. I will ignore your comments and try to help!

This is Craig commenting now but all posts have been a mixture of myself and James.

I will happily come back in 10 years at 33 and hope to be faster than i am now. If I can’t hack it then cest la vie ill try something else! I currently have that decision to make on if to try for the next Olympics or not. I am sitting at home after two recent surgery’s (my 3rd and 4th) and waiting for a third that I am not sure if will be in time to get me back next season (I am fairly knackered already Very Happy

). I am pretty sure ill give it a good go though because I would rather not make it knowing I wasn’t good enough than to always wonder what if or blame my circumstances.

The French have asked me to ski slower before because I was skiing quicker than my calibration, do you really think that would be the case if they wanted to keep you all out? I think they are just trying to maintain a standard! As do most qualifications in most walks of life!

jjc,

Hi Craig. I just wanted to know who was commenting and was not intending to be rude or attack you, James or Jes. It is obvious from the posts that it was more than one person commenting. Unlike lots of people on this forum i do not hide behind an alias and am prepared to state my own personal views.

I know about your injuries and the best of luck for your 'olympic dream'. My 'Olympic dream' is to pass the ET and at 33 had not even started BASI.

ps. I have just googled 'stewart woodward'. I am not the Rocket Scientist wink

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jimmer, you need to be BASI L2 as a minimum, or join the system of one of the other countires that participate, eg France.

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It would appear to be impossible to come up with any meaningful statistics on the relative difficulty of the Tech v. the ET, but 1) Tech is more relevant to ski teaching than a GS. 2) Personally I don't think that getting the L4 should be a requirement for being able to teach skiing without restriction in Europe. ISIA stamp should suffice. Anything more is overkill - in reality most lessons most places on this planet are taught satisfactorily by instructors with lower qualifications than that still!

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good conversation all, thanks for all the informative comments.

a couple really got me thinking, the L4 Tech is a really tough course and not to be underestimated. You need to train hard and ski virtually full time for a few years to stand a good chance of passing it. Two friends got their passes today and they were both the "top dogs" from my L2 a few years ago. Very fit committed ski instructors who put in a lot of time on planks and in the gym.

I have trained with several people with ET passes and they were more concerned about the L4 tech. However this doesnt make the ET a fair test. It is a lottery, jjc, I have to say it stinks to hear that you get told to slow down, i heard that from another BASI opener a couple years and was pretty shocked, to me it sounds commonplace and in my view confirms the test is rigged and completely unreliable.

I am all for a timed test and i hope that the ET procedures get reviewed and modified to make the results more consistent.

beanie1, Will BASI push for the ISIA test which seems to have addressed the inconsistencies or at least some changes to make it more reliable? or will they kowtow to the French who as sixman says just use it as a filter to keep cheap labour in the ESF pyramid and wages high.

beanie1, can you confirm that BASI has submitted an application to the EU? If so i think that info should be published to members. I agree fully with sixman comments on this.

skimottaret,

You know it makes sense.

The posts on here seem to fall into 2 camps.

1. Comments regarding how to achieve the ET, mainly made by current / ex racers who are above the standard so can 'cruise' an ET pass time and therefore don't see the issues facing non schoolboy age at start trainees.
2. Comments by committed individuals often starting BASI in their 30's, who want to pass, but simply see the ET as the wrong type of exam (in it's current format and difficulty) to enable teaching skiing to the public.

The problem for a lot of people over 30 is they are balancing a working life and a training life. Training for something they don't see as necessary for the career they are pursuing. They also have to go to work on Monday morning. Break a leg badly during an October stage and it can have dire consequences for them. It's the reality for them.

Do you really have to drive a formula 1 car around Monaco to be able to teach someone to drive in Surrey?

With regard to age not really being a barrier performance wise for the ET.
Running.
The running world has age adjusted charts for performance. They are accurate. If you train hard at 45 and become as fit as you can be and run, say, 100m sprint or a marathon, the tables will tell you what you would have achieved at say 25 at peak fitness. They work. They have been compiled over decades. They confirm there is a slowing down of performance, especially in shorter events eg. track, with age. Hence also vets categories 40, 50. etc so races are fair. It is very uncommon for a 40 year old to win a race outright (ie first past the post) on the track.
Can you imagine a 45 year old running the 400m hurdles, roughly the same duration as the ET, and winning the race?
However that same 45 year old may be fit, able to demonstrate hurdling as a coach to a high level and coach the Olympic squad. Why? Because they have the experience, knowledge and skill to do so and demo well too. They don't have to be able to hurdle within 82% of the world champs time to do it. It would be irrelevant. It is irrelevant and therefore isn't included in the qualifications needed to coach. They are also sensible enough to see and have documented proof via the tables, that a 45 year old would struggle badly with a non age adjusted system if they implemented one. So they don't.

So what about safety?
Sailing.
Similar to skiing. A group of people, usually 3 or 4 to around 12 people on a yacht. Same hostile conditions. Same life threatening scenarios if you get it wrong.
The RYA examine to Yachtmaster standard, the highest qualification. This is achievable by 60 year olds. As long as they can cope with the demanding weather etc and are competent they will pass. Why? Because they have demonstrated knowledge, safety, leadership ability and are able to handle a yacht in any situation. Same as skiing.
The RYA don't ask you to complete a single handed race against Helen McArthur within 82% of her time. Because it is irrelevant to teaching, safety and demonstrating things well. They ask to see you doing the do. To a standard. then pass or fail. Racing irrelevant.

Upholding of standards.
If we agree that the ET is a valuable and necessary qualification to enable teaching then we should embrace it and uphold the standard. Some say on this forum that it promotes excellent skiing and demo ability and keeps instructors standards high. I can agree with that. So if we need to pass the ET to be at the standard necessary to teach, de facto it must be necessary to keep to that standard always. There is no difference teaching someone in 2002 a technique and demo-ing it to them and teaching someone in 2022 the same thing, when you might be 55 instead of 35. If we need to be at ET standard to do it at all, then we must keep to that standard. If we don't need to continue at that standard then it is redundant from the start isn't it?
We therefore should be lobbying to re test every 5 years. Pass and continue teaching. Fail and your out until you pass.
The Gas industry in the UK operates this system. They set a standard (achievable standard) of safety. They examine you on it every 5 years. You pass and continue. You fail and you are de registered until you re sit and pass. No ifs or buts because safety is at stake. The standard doesn't drop. It is fairly set.
So if our beloved ET is necessary, achievable and fairly set we must make it mandatory to re take regularly through out our ski teaching careers to ensure the fair standard of fitness, racing ability and demo's are always to the same high standard.
It will, of course, mean many British and French ski schools closing down. Many instructors permanently excluded, many BASI trainers having to step down. This can only be a good thing though as they plainly are not up to the agreed necessary standard to be a qualified ski teacher agreed by BASI, ENSA et al. It can't be a part time thing can it? If it is the necessary standard it has to be continuous.

So in a nutshell either agree it is not a relevant qualification for reasons of difficulty, inappropriateness to the job, ageist etc.
Or agree it is a necessary level to be at to do the job in which case it has to be continuous and re tested regularly to uphold that standard.
There is no in between.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Cripes Dogging, that is a heck of a second post on SnowHeads!

Welcome, welcome....I don't think anyone has ever summed it up better, I relish your input in the future on all sorts of subjects (you have set yourself a high standard to keep to!).
FWIW....put me in the first set of opinions.

A snowHead

Dogging, Welcome to snowHead

A snowHead

Dogging, good post, all points bleedin' obvious (even to those with interests to protect, whether they care to admit it or not), but good to say them again anyway

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Dogging, welcome to snowHeads. Very Happy

That's a phenomenally lucid post!

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Stewart Woodward, Re: Turkeys not voting for Christmas.

BASI is a democracy, all members are entitled to one vote. The problem is that most of the ISTD / Eurotest decisions are made behind closed doors by people who have vested interests - a fact already alluded to in several posts. If a 'rump', not necessarily a majority, of members believe (like the ISIA) that the Eurotest is an unfair encubrance they should make their opinions known to BASI and BASI should then reconsider there current alignment to the French, Austrian and Italian camp. I speak from intimate knowledge of the machinations of the BASI Board.
AND. while I have been unable to read the legal interpretation proivided by Helen Mountfield, your are corect Educationis not exempt from the Age Discrimation Act. Which means that BASI's advice is either out of date, an inadequate interpretation or has been 'adjusted' to suit the position of the Board at the time.

This link is for a download of the ISIA minutes held in St Christophe in January 2011. The voting table on page 3 is worthy of note. http://www.isiaski.org/download/20110118_st-anton_dv_protokoll_en.pdf

JJC, Not quite sure how to read your position in all of this. Some of your postings are demonstrably elitist, others are more pragmatic and reflect a mature understanding of the need for the industry to provide an appropriate service to the public.

Dogging, You are entirely logical and correct, your examples are well contructed and faultless. In 2000 the French were granted, by the EU, a temporary derogation which allowed them to as the host nation to ban ski instructors who had not passed a specific test (which has since become the Eurotest). In their submission to the EU the French quite specifically and singularly stated that the test was an indication 'safety'. For various reasons which I will explain in later posts the derogation was made permanent 2 years later, however the justification for the derogation remains 'safety'. DOGGING did omit to indicate that while BASI require their other 'safety' tests, eg First Aid, etc. to be renewed via a pass / fail test they have remained consistent by insisting that this particular safety test, the Eurotest, should also be renewed on a pass / fail basis. It is worth noting that there have been no destructive posts in response to yours. (destructive as opposed to constructive)

JJC, Slikedges and others. try to differentiate between skill and performance. It is a physiological fact that performance will deteriorate with age. Reaction time, muscle synaptic response time and the ability of the 'muscles to synthesise energy' (I won't give you all the full version of Krebs Cycle) will all take longer with age. Depth of vision is poorer (corrective lenses make a slight but not significant difference) Recent research indicates that while balance is not significantly affected by age the ability to compensate for being out of balance is affected (on an exponential scale from mid 30's). Skill on the other hand can continue to improve with age provided the athletes cognative function remains, ie. they are able to understand what they are doing or what it is they are trying to learn.

Conclusion: This is a good thread, but it is a wasted thread if it remains within SNOWHEADS. If you are unhappy with
the Eurotest, either because the standard is inappropriate, it fails to take into account age or it just plain should not exist then you should take your concerns to BASI and make sure that as many of your instructor friends do the same. The vested interests have already entrenched themselves within the BASI hierarchy but the aspirant ISTD's never have the opportunity to express their opinion.

Finally: European legislation does not require absolute parity of training standards. The host nation (ie. France, Austria etc) can only prevent a migrant from working if they can prove that there is substantial difference in training in one or more area.

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Bindingcheck, Welcome. Good post and interesting comments, especially given the current membership \ qualification splits for BASI given in a different thread.

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Oops, Just spotted several typo errors in my previous post the worst of which was in the 4th paragraph when writing about 'safety'. It should have read " to be renewed via a pass / fail test they have remained inconsistent by insisting that this particular safety test, "

Sorry

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Bindingcheck,

James will now comment under JJC James and I will use the JJC account.

I am going to attempt to express my views although be aware writing is not my strong point so I apologise in advance if anything sounds either elitist or non understanding, this is not my intention.

Reasons for posting:
I started contributing to this thread to try and show another side to the coin and hopefully help anyone wanting to pass. The majority of posts on here are by people who are unhappy with the ET and its place in the system (I honestly do understand your concerns). Although talking to plenty of candidates on our camps and at tests this is not a good representative of the many positive views candidates taking the test have. There are plenty out there of all ages who have been trying for some time or who are new to it who accept the test and are working hard to get it. I just didn’t want people put off ever having a go because they are told it’s impossible on here because they are 30+ when that is just not true.

Passing the ET and the common mistakes made:
Fitness: You need to be fit with good core and dynamic strength (to be able to demonstrate the skills required to perform at the standard) and of course some level of cardio.
There are some very specific exercises that are great and relevant for skiing and if done in a structured way will be able to help get even the older candidate to the fitness levels required. I did offer to send some fitness ideas to anyone who wanted them and only got one request. If you want to get to the level of fitness required it might help to see what the guys you are chasing are doing.

Equipment: From my experience skis can make a huge difference, I have sets that are 8 tenths slower in a straight line over 15 seconds. This is because they are training sets and I don’t treat them as well. Always waxing your skis “with good wax” is important. The more wax you run in the faster they will be. Also make sure you have no burs and a consistent smooth sharp edge this will increase your ability to make shorter pressure and not hold on to the turn for to long It is also important to have your boots set up properly, my runs have varied by over a second depending on which boot set up I have. These are all things you can change without changing your skiing or going to the gym and will make a huge difference. It will also mean you can ski much more efficiently when free skiing.

Psychology: Hugely relevant to this thread. If you believe you are too old to pass or have any other kind of negative thoughts your mind naturally tends to want to prove yourself right! Its important to go in with the confidence that you have trained properly in the gym, the equipment your on is working well and that you have done the appropriate training to be at the level and now it is just down to your skiing on the day. Trying to just get lucky and not believing in yourself wont work.

Race chasing: This does not work. If you can’t ski consistently close to the level you are going to struggle every where you go. Its going to affect you psychologically and the further into the hole you go the harder it is to bounce back. Some hills will suit people better but from going to most venues I would say it’s fairly consistent what I see. The same people are close and the same are a long way off. Its extremely expensive driving across Europe staying in hotels and paying entry fees. Would it not be better to invest in training closer to home until you are able to go to a test confident and not hoping it’s a give away (I think this has only happened once)

Training: Do a lot of research before picking where to train. Look at the coaches back grounds, the venues, the other athletes in the training groups (its important to have people to chase) I understand it’s a massive investment so be careful in making sure your getting a program that meets your demands as a candidate.

From my experience attending a lot of tests most of these things are being done badly. This thread is evidence of some of the psychological barriers. I have never seen skis that look like they are really well prepared and there are usually a lot of very unfit looking candidates young and old. I also often see the same candidates making the same mistakes at different tests time and time again.

I appreciate its hard to train and get a lot of these things right when you already have a busy schedule but remember it is essential and you are trying to pass a top level qualification. Ski instructing is and should be a career in itself, if you are doing it as a career change you need to be prepared to make sacrifices and dedicate a lot of time to it in the same way I would if I wanted to become say an accountant or electrician in later life.

Age and its effects in relation to the ET:

I don’t question that age is going to affect your physical ability and never have. From reading some posts with regards to the running system etc I have done a bit of research and the studies I have read suggest on peaking at 25 if you were to train just as hard at 35, 45 and 55 these would be the differences. At 35 there is no substantial difference at 45 there is on average a 3% decline in sprinting 4-4.5% long distance running and 2% swimming (this explains why when I am flat out in front crawl I still get overtaken by 70 year old women doing breast stoke and having a chat) and by 55 all round fitness will have decreased on average by 4% from peak. These percentages are based on if you have trained just as hard and are not reflective of Jo Blogs who has not been in a gym since he was 25. Remember also that not everyone has the same peak or potential. There are people with fast twitch slow twitch muscle fibres, people with more efficient ATP PC, anaerobic and aerobic systems. Then you have different heights, weights and shapes etc etc. The list goes on. If you watch world cup ski racing the beauty is there does not seem to be one generic body type that makes you fast, it is largley skill based.

So how does all this relate to the ET. We all know you need to be in good shape to pass the ET but you don’t need to be the fittest person in the world or even close. Can a 35 or 45 year old achieve the fitness levels required to pass the ET? Evidently yes as there is a 45 year old opener and from looking at those running charts and masters results a lot of 55 year old runners are in better shape than me Embarassed

before their times are even converted. I would be more inclined to agree if at the tests everyone was skiing to the same technical standard and looked in good shape and still not passing but this really isn’t the case and I think it is a bit of a cop out to blame it purely on this and not at all on the other aspects mentioned above.

Should there be time allowance for age? If there was I don’t think it would or should be a huge % difference to how close you would have to be and from my experience wouldn’t make much if any impact to most. On a whole we are still to far out to worry about this. Does this then mean its pitched to high or we are not training correctly and getting everything right in order to pass it?

Of course if you are in your 50’s or 60’s and only just starting out it will be a really tall order. I think a lot of top level qualifications requiring your physical or academic ability would be.

My thoughts on levels of instructor:

I still stand by my view that the ET and level 4 would help provide potential employers with a view as to who they are employing and has its place in the system. If I was to run a ski school I would want at least a few at ET/level 4 standard. For me this works the same way employers have the pick of applicants with 3rd 2:1 or 1st class degree’s and many job postings suggest you will be paid according to your qualifications and experience. I know it’s been pointed out that a large amount of lessons are of a low standard and I see no problem in a level 2 or ISIA taking these. However for example if some of my friends or family wanted a lesson as I quite often suggest they do, I would be disappointed if they had someone who couldn’t meet the Level 4 tech requirements and be at least close to the current ET standard. Should you be blocked from working in certain places because you’re not a level 4? I don’t necessarily think so. If you’re qualified to teach to a certain standard you should be able to do so, but the level 4 should exist to show the next level and ability of an instructor and does serve a valid purpose (you could compare it to say a masters in the academic world). You have mentioned re testing and I think this is a great idea, it would encourage us all to maintain a high standard and keep pushing to improve and adapt our skills. Skiing is a progressing sport and the instructors should progress with it to be able to teach it.

In conclusion:

Whilst the test is part of the level 4 and you require it to achieve your goals. Try and be honest with yourself if you are really hitting the mark on all aspects that go into getting a great time. Are your skis as good as the openers? Are your boots set up properly for you? Have you put the right wax on for the snow condition? Do you believe deep down your ready and can pass? Have you done everything you can do to ensure your fit enough? Have you done sufficient training on your technical ability?

As pointed out by James and Bindingcheck if you feel strongly about it then you need to voice these opinions to someone that can make a difference. From my personal perspective I don’t think its all about job protectionism and rather than just getting rid of the ET you would need to open a full discussion on all aspects of the system and what is required to deliver the correct standard of ski instructor to the client. Are some parts to easy? Are some parts to hard? Should we start re testing? I am just trying to look at it from all angles.

This thread has been good and helped me look at things from another perspective and should help me improve the way I do things. I wish everyone the best of luck if you’re either trying to pass the test or get it changed I hope it works out for you and we can get some more top level British ski instructors.

Craig

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jjc, thanks for taking the time to write up your thoughts , this has been an excellent thread with a lot of good points from people with very differing viewpoints. I would like to get any info you had on specific fitness for GS racing, been meaning to ask but was busy skiing last week!

for reference i am a UK based 48 year old and started skiing at 28 and started BASI at 44 completing all my ISIA modules in 3 seasons and perhaps fall into your negative Psychology camp. I like the teaching as well as training element of instructing. I have done only a very limited amount of race training and had two injuries race training which kept me off skis for a while . I think you perhaps underestimate the fear factor of injuries to us oldies. how many in your camps injure out during the season?, i would think a fair few judging by the number of junior racers and FIS racers i hear of blowing knees etc... me missing a season or several months due to a training injury just doesnt stack up so perhaps i come across as negative.

At my age I would need to spend 4 days a week in the gym for 6 months to even get close to being ready to train hard for the ET (not unreasonable ) and I have to say then spending 6 - 12 weeks on a glacier in the off season at huge cost just to potentially get near the standard AND finally traveling around europe taking multiple ET's as the results dont bear any relation to how good you are doesnt seem worth it to me. How many of your trainees have got the ET in their first go even having trained hard, have talent, athleticism and followed your plans to the letter? I would doubt many if any. the results are so inconsistent due to the structure of the test it probably to you feels like people are "chasing tests" when in reality they are hoping to get a fair crack. Why do pass results swing from a few percent to 10's of percent at each ET? are the candidates that different? to me it is down to the poor way the calibration is done and using the fastest opener (even if the fastest guy gets told to slow down on his second race) BASI has been sending a TD to ensure fairness, can we not get a reoprt on this?

I take your point about trying to ski consistently to your calibration but hearing that openers get told to slow down so that a reasonable amount get through on the second run doesnt like a consistent fair method of testing skill and is open to abuse and rigging. Just read the ISIA minutes and you see years of ski instructor associations arguing amoungst themselves and ISIA proving beyond any reasonable doubt the current test is flawed fundamentally. An alternative consistent test is formulated and tested but rejected by FEMPS and now we hear BASI as well to keep the status quo .. and i hate to say it but it reeks of keeping a small amount of the membership (a few hundred current ISTD's in better paying jobs.

It might be useful to take some of the pertinent questions raised here about age discrimination, ET procedural inconsistencies, etc and send an open letter to BASI asking for an explanation.

Help!!

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