easiski, I must admit that when I'm not skiing aggressively, I quite like a boot that allows me to hang right out on front and relax a little...so very stiff flex, high forward lean...I shudder to admit but one favourite was the Sally SX92 cos you could, to an extent play with flex and forward lean very easily. It does, IMHO, make your skis quite sensitive to control inputs...
I'd also stick my amateur opinion that as with almost any sport, being able to be in the "ready position" if they still call it that seems like a good place to start?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
comprex wrote:
easiski, confused now, do you advocate a plantar flexed position as 'neutral' and doesn't that do mean unspeakable things to the arch of the foot?
I don't understand that - please repeat the question in proper english.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Megamum, now I am sure there are lots of different opinions of this, but I certainly know of a couple of very experienced instructors who actively encourage students at your stage to lift the inside ski as a way of forcing them to get onto the edge of the outside ski of the new turn. It's one of those things which you can tone down gradually as you get more used to the feeling of getting onto the new edge as you transition from turn to turn but i wouldn't concentrate too hard on stopping yourself from doing it completely right now.
easiski, confused now, do you advocate a plantar flexed position as 'neutral' and doesn't that do mean unspeakable things to the arch of the foot?
I don't understand that - please repeat the question in proper english.
It's something to do with peanuts I think.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
easiski, plantar flexed: the sole of the foot flexed away from the shin.
That's one option for ball-of-foot weighting, the other is to rotate the sole and shin forward as a unit using zeppa.
IMHO Megamum's exercise is a bit useful here, one can ask whether the skier needs to pull the load leg forward under the body to open the ankle and balance on that foot.
The trouble was once I found I could lift the inside ski to avoid the problem of it not coming round I found myself doing that rather than to solve the problem of why it wouldn't come round.
I learnt to ski 10 years back... and my instructors actively discouraged lifting the inside ski to turn... precisely because you then do not learn to steer the ski....
As Easiski and I discussed even the "stem christie" I was taught involved active steering for stemming and matching skis no lift ... My instructors were quite insistent about the no lift policy... Lifting was for drills like thousand steps etc... not for skiing
I believe this was an Australian teaching progression at the time and also Austrian(my instructor also worked in Austria and we were linked with an Austrian instructor training program for new instructors)
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comprex, I'm being awfully thick here - or maybe I'm just too tired. I don't see why you can't just stand with more weight on the front part of your foot without trying to work out the minutiae. Stand on one foot in the living room. Hop forward. Where does the hop come from? You can't bl**dy well move from the heel. When I stand on one foot I deffo have more weight on the front of it than the heel. If I want to move forward (OK I know skiing backwards is all the rage but.......) I have to push from the front of the foot. Simple - forward movement is generated by the front part of the foot. When skiing we move forward ... KISS.
After all it is free
After all it is free
easiski, I am really, really confused now.
If I'm standing in my ski boots, clicked into bindings and take a hop whilst on a nice flat section, I've always thought that I -should- look to come down in the same spot.
Certainly, I -can- hop forward in them too, but only as a choice not as a default.
I apologise for being stiffnecked on this: I've spent literal years getting toe push/toe flick -out- of my skating technique by practicing heel push on extension. Now it seems that ski extension should have a forward component and I need to throw all of the other stuff out then relearn it once a year.
KISS means I give up skiing.
If you want to start another thread on it some other time, I'd go along with it.
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easiski wrote:
FastMan, It's funny how we've come (from completely different points) to teach almost the exact same things!
Yes, and,,, well,,, no.
After spending a significant amount of time delving into the technical depths of this sport, most professional coaches/teachers seem to sort through the clutter and come to recognize the basket of basic foundation skills upon which high level performance is built, regardless of the specific venue the performer chooses to apply his or her craft. I know you've devoted a good portion of your life to the pursuit of understanding the skills, and sharing the joys, of skiing. I have too. So not really so surprising we came to the arrive at the same general place in our teaching.
Quote:
There is one point though, in relation to intermediate skiers which is that I do prefer (and the French and Italian systems do as well, but not BASI) to keep the weight mostly on the front part of the foot. This is partly because so many skiers already stand principally on their heels that this helps enormously to correct their faulty stance and consequently their faulty balance. The other reason is that it is this part of our foot that pushes us forward when we run/walk/whatever so it's logical to use this part of the foot, thus staying 'in charge'. I have checked this out with a couple of top physiologists and biomechanists (I mean the real thing as I have access when working at the University in the autumn) and they concur.
I didn't get too detailed in my original post, in an effort to KISS (keep it simple stupid, for those who think we're getting fresh). But from my bio-mechanical understanding, optimal balance is obtained by placing about 2/3 of our weight up on the balls of the feet, and one third on the heel. So, yes, dominant pressure up front does provide the optimal balance platform. It also serves to better pronate the outside foot, which directs the majority of the 2/3 up front foot pressure to the big toe ball, and thus the inside edge of the ski. And as I said earlier,,, that's just what we want.
I also strongly support the practice you suggest of nudging people toward the opposite end of the spectrum they're currently erroring toward, then later letting settle into ideal. Super effective strategy. And, yes, most intermediate skiers do tend to gravitate toward the aft end of the balance spectrum. My teaching is based on exploring and refining performance across the entirety of the spectrum right from the git-go. This develops keen self awareness of what a student is doing at any moment in time, and provides the ability to modify it as desired. It requires some time and willingness to work by the student. But oh the results if they will.
Quote:
I like to think of the action against the front of the boot as 'snuggle and squeeze' - snuggle most of the time (shins into the tongue) and squeeze the tongue for action.
I like that analogy. The racer kids may laugh at me though.
Quote:
I know about your idea - get on with it!!!
Alright, alright.
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comprex wrote:
easiski, plantar flexed: the sole of the foot flexed away from the shin.
That's one option for ball-of-foot weighting
Kinda lost me here, Comprex. Plantar flexion opens the ankle joint, which moves the lower leg rearward. Plantar flexion, in isolation, moves the Center of Mass rearward. That moves the point of balance closer to the heel than it was.
You CAN increase the ratio of front/rear foot pressure in favor of front when doing this,,, but only if you lean against the back of the boot cuff. When you do that your balance point is really aft, even though the pressure on the base of your foot is in the front. This is why easiski and I were stressing not levering against the boot cuff. We want the balance point center/fore,,, not just the base of foot pressure. That's fools gold.
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comprex, Sorry - I was doing it in my slippers (well, should have been in my socks really). It's a question of how we normally move, and using that when skiing. Try without your ski boots. I'm en route back to France tomorrow morning so will be out of touch for a couple of days. Maybe we can start a new thread when I get home? Heel push on extension? That sounds odd to me, but I know nothing about skating.
FastMan, Yes - that's what I thought Comprex meant which was why I was so confused!
Point of balance, point d'equilibre and on, and on, and on ...............
And on the subject of 'guest centred' teaching. It's no good teaching someone an advanced technique if their basics aren't correct - you just make things worse..
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
easiski wrote:
And on the subject of 'guest centred' teaching. It's no good teaching someone an advanced technique if their basics aren't correct - you just make things worse..
Absolutely,,, yet it's done everyday. Bagging blacks, rush to carve, condemn/skip the snowplow, poo-poo teaching angulation early on, admonish turning for speed control,,, and on and on and on............ God bless America.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
FastMan, NOt just the USA, most blokes over here when you quiz them on how their week went invariably say they "did" a black or a red run. That seems to be the highlight of the tour for a lot of people and a measure as to how "good" they are and how well the ski school went
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
skimottaret, Not unreasonable as many people are like to measure themselves against something and get a sense of achievement having done something 'hard', but as FastMan and easiski say, too much too soon doesn't help development in the long run.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
david@mediacopy, agreed!
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I don't see anything wrong is 'bagging' a black in your first weeks skiing whether you are in ski school or not.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
skimottaret, that is one of the challenges when teaching skiing.
You want your client to achieve their goals. For a lot of people the goal isn`t "I want to make technically perfect parallel turns" it is "I want to ski a black diamond so I can tell my buddies back home". Now this is were an instructors negotiation skills and managment of client expectations are put to the test. In most cases a compromise can be made eg. a fun technical based lesson on a slope within the clients current comfort zone working on areas of skill deficiency. You can then introduce techniques that will help a skier who ends up on a slope slightly out of their comfort zone to get down safely eg. side slipping or safety plough parallel. Then, if they are ready, and you want to put a massive smile on their face you can find an "easy" black diamond and help them down.
Now they may not look pretty but they will have achieved "their" goal by skiing the black diamond and I as an instructor would have achieved my goal too. ie. helping to improve the clients skills, arming them with techniques to help them safely negotiate slopes slightly outwith their current comfort zone and most importantly putting a huge smile on their face as they have achieved their goal and can claim bragging rights in the resort bar at the end of the day.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
JT, mrtoastie,fair dues, as long as they manage to do it standing up
mrtoastie, If it's an 'easy' black it's not a black. We have a red on the glacier that's easier than the 'official' green (which isn't there anymore because there's a snowpark on it). But it's just the start of the red - it does get red later on. LDA doesn't really do this - if it says it's black it's black, in fact some of our blues are black.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
easiski, are you saying all blacks in Europe are exactly the same difficulty.. Valentin in LDA and Face in Val D`Isere?
Only kidding.. I get what you mean..
I suppose as long as it has a black symbol and they have made there way down safely that is all that matters to them.
Been to L2A many a time.. the upside down terrain (ie. easy up top.. difficult down low.. not literally skiing upside down.. unless you hit the super pipe ) is always nerve racking for the beginner + lower intermediate.
After all it is free
After all it is free
I came across this video of a canadian guy doing ski tips for a television programme, i have no idea if he is an instructor or not but it highlights some of the narrow stance /tail swishing / inside edge lfting style as discussed a little earlier.
could some of our canadian or NA cousins offer opinion if this is typical of canadian style that was being discussed or (IMO) just unattractive skiing.
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skimottaret,
The clip was categorised under comedy. Just looked fairly old school style to me - if he's a COP instructor he's not exactly out on the most testing or varied terrain. Not typical of the "new" Canadian style IMO not enough shoulder "shrug" for starters
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skimottaret, it's hard to tell from the video ...but judging by his boots, silly salomon reinforcements, bindings and clothing, I'm going to guess this was filmed around 1999-2001 - probably earlier - maybe but I don't think so, later... So slightly dated style and not representative of current "thinking".
Assuming that my carbon dating is correct, given the then state of the art I think he's skiing rather attractively myself.
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skimottaret, did you check his piercing video???
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
skimottaret, and just my understanding, and I have a poor eye for such stuf.... but I have skied with one canadian instructor for 5 seasons and another main instructor was a canadian provincial race coach.... and neither ski anything like that video....
for a canadian instructor - missing the obligatory bob and crouch (even if they don't ski like this they learn to do the demos that way) for a start...
for a canadian racer - ummm no that is no racer skiing!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Err uhhmmmm, fatbob, good spot, as it was listed in the comedy section and does appear dated as David Murdoch, says i perhaps should have looked a little closer before posting apologies to our friends over the water for any slight even as it was unintentional....
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
skimottaret, ha ha.. even for the late nineties.. that is butt ugly skiing.. although I shouldn`t be totally harsh as he did have his boots unclipped. I can promise you that the video clip is in no way a representation of current skiing professionals in Canada... although it did highlight an extreme example of what I was discussing earlier in the thread.. narrow stance and lifting.
He was doing almost window wiper turns.. only watched it once but he appeared to just be brushing the backs of his skis out as opposed instead of doing pretty sgort radius.. (maybe his skis were just to darn straight).
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
skimottaret, That guy is a total joke. I doubt very much he is a currently certified instructor.
veeeight, thanks, that seems more like what i was expecting to see your second clip guy while being a VERY good skier does show a fairly narrow stance and some pivoting as his normal style even outside of the bumps...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
skimottaret, the second guy, Norman Kreutz, is my boss. He is a truely awesome skier and inspirational teacher...is funny see him being used as an example on Snowheads.. will have to let him know
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
skimottaret, it's very easy to get brainwashed into the new school mantra of wide stance. Firstly, as I'm sure you know, stance is not a static position, so the question you should be asking is, "Is his stance appropriate for the speed (slow), terrain (thick groomed), and type of turns (short radius)..... is the width of his stance blocking or limiting any aspect of the skiing?
On your second point, do you see pivoting, as part of skidded washed out turns in that video, or do you see pivoting as part of the blend in steering......
(ie: does he pivot his skis first, or does he put his skis on edge, then pivot as part of the blend of pivoting and edging to steer)
veeeight, no I agree with you about wide not being the be all end all. stance width should be dependent on conditions and what you are trying to do. i think before you said wide = stability and narrow = manuverablity or nimbleness? which i quite liked. His stance was just fine and the pivots seemed to blend well not "washed out" as exampled by his stopping in front of the camera very quickly, softly and quietly on his edges.
skimottaret, My stance mantra.... Wide = Stability, Narrow = Mobility.
Actually, I nicked it off another coach.....
Yes, Thomas Grandi is a different kettle of fish, I think I also mentioned before that the CSIA focus very much on all mountain, all terrain skiing, whilst the CSCF focus of speed, and err, racing Obviouslt both have a huge amount of crossover (no pun intended) but the focus and tactics are different for much of the time. So, watching Thomas "freeskiing" and a CSIA instructor freeskiing will produce two different pictures.
veeeight, gotcha.. Mobility... i think a lot of this comes down to style and "upbringing" in the way good skiers tackle things. I am not good enough nor experienced enough to comment on good skiers ability but find it interesting to see if i can try to spot where someone has learned to ski or how they were trained.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I love some of these videos showing the different techniques - I can often see clearly what is being demonstrated, for example, the extension of the outside leg of the turn to keep the turn in balance. What I wish is that I could take these onto the slope and view them immediately before trying the tips out - its far easier to keep in mind what you might like to try doing when it is fresh in your mind.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Megamum, that is what the instructor is for.... a good one will be able to show you what he wants you to do and what you are doing
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veeeight,
Those two clips.... the 1st one pretty well nails an intermdeiate gorilla turn..!! Doesn't quite have to shoulders doing it but the bottom half of the body is getting there...so NOT so stylish or attractive, IMV
2nd vid....much more like it, ....but those legs look at bit too close together from a lot of the stuff alluded to on here...
My take is that you can cream the best bits of both schools of thought and pitch it somewhere in between
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In the 3rd video, he even picks his inside ski up...!!!! again not bad from my POV.
Awareness of what to do when sounds about right.
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