 Poster: A snowHead
|
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| Megamum wrote: |
| PM to mod has been sent. |
And hopefully they will ignore it. There's no reason to censor this thread, except possibly for language (worse was used by DH Lawrence in 1927). |
No, but perhaps they could hive off the posts to a separate thread (title to be decided by poll?) from the point where the rhetoric caused the thread to avalanche, say from Wednesday 18th December at 23:59 and onwards?
I actually find these spats quite entertaining but it's a shame that the main protagonists have little regard for the OP and the other posts by individuals who are clearly familiar with skiing in Japan.
Carry on chaps but in your own thread eh?
Merry Christmas 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
halfhand, as noted above, that is what I have suggested.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Megamum, Yep, cross-posting it's a booger. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Megamum wrote: |
| FWIW I am not a fan of censorship - everyone is entitled to their own opinions even if others don't agree with them. Hence suggesting that the thread is split at a suitable location rather than censored. |
Do we all still agree that Goldsmith is completely wrong with his attitude to off-piste responsibility? Or has CG's hissy fit and smoke blowing confused everyone?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| ... because 'the industry' is out to make avalanche retrieval a feast of tech... |
When you used to sell things for 'the industry' were you equally reluctant to sell innovations in boots, skis, boards, clothing, etc? Was your recommendation for sturdy tweed and dubbined boots rather than these new-fangled plastic boots and steel edged skis? Or is your refusal to countenance any of today's innovations a futile attempt to atone for your previous hard charging sales to punters who were abused by 'the industry'?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| PJSki wrote: |
| Megamum wrote: |
| FWIW I am not a fan of censorship - everyone is entitled to their own opinions even if others don't agree with them. Hence suggesting that the thread is split at a suitable location rather than censored. |
Do we all still agree that Goldsmith is completely wrong with his attitude to off-piste responsibility? Or has CG's hissy fit and smoke blowing confused everyone? |
It's his prerogative to take that attitude doesn't matter whether everyone else thinks he's wrong or not and his stance is not likely to affect whether a rescue attempt would be made should he have the misfortune to be caught in an avalanche. Someone did throw out the idea that he may have been playing devil's advocate but I don't think so. However, I don't know him very well but I suspect you do PJSki.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Is all this for real? I haven't a clue who either of main posters are in this thread but I believe they are both "respected" people who have made there livings from the ski industry?!?
However it just shows the pompous attitudes still in the sport today.
For what it's worth I do think there's a lot of elitist views that you can't ride off piste at all without transceivers when they are IMO only essential on true back country touring.
Now let the posh boys continue there slanting match! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Wow, what a joke.
How about you all take your bickering somewhere else and stop ruining what was an interesting thread?
edit: wot manicpb said 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Someone is going to be in trouble when the teachers find out that they have been using the computers during play time
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| When you used to sell things for 'the industry' were you equally reluctant to sell innovations in boots, skis, boards, clothing, etc? Was your recommendation for sturdy tweed and dubbined boots rather than these new-fangled plastic boots and steel edged skis? Or is your refusal to countenance any of today's innovations a futile attempt to atone for your previous hard charging sales to punters who were abused by 'the industry'? |
Three perfectly reasonable and wittily phrased questions, Rob.
1. When I sold ski hardware over two winters (for Alpine Sports, Brompton Rd, and its newly-acquired The Ski Shop, Notting Hill Gate, 1975-7) the proprietor Martin Green and his marketing director Mike Browne - who later founded Snow+Rock - were heavily into Hanson boots, Spademan bindings and Hexcel skis. This all-American trio of space-age brands would be sold on a Saturday afternoon, for hundreds of pounds, to our many well-heeled Belgravian punters. The boutique would be rammed with these intelligent and discerning consumers.
Sorry, what was your question?
2. Plastic boots (most effectively mass-produced by Lange, but also then Nordica etc.) began to replace leather boots in the late 1960s and early 1970s, so your chronology is a little defective there. I would have been physically unable to sell leather "dubbined boots" in the mid-1970s ... as I'm sure you appreciate. Perhaps I should open a 'vintage ski' outlet - London supports anything these days!
3. That's your best question, and probably the sub-conscious truth is somewhere in there. How would you like me to answer it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| How would you like me to answer it? |
I don't think that there is much that can be added to drag this back to reason and utility, so perhaps best to ignore my question and let this thread go the way of all threads.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rob@rar, in essence you're right ... and the 'disgusted of Tunbridge Val' brigade above are at perfect liberty to talk about transceivers in Niseko - or anything else they deem 'on topic'.
So, come on now, pull it back to relevance, chaps.
Would it be relevant to ask ... how many people have died in avalanches in Niseko, and what were they kitted out with?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Quote: |
Would it be relevant to ask ... how many people have died in avalanches in Niseko, and what were they kitted out with?
|
It's a bit late for that. There really isn't that much debate to be had here. I'm certainly not going to participate in something that might suggest there is more than one answer to the question "should you have rescue gear in the back country?" I don't want someone new to the field thinking that there is anything like doubt or a debate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| gorilla wrote: |
It's a bit late for that. |
Hardly. The person who started this thread was being highly topical. It's about the here and now of Niseko, and what constitutes sensible practice on its slopes.
I genuinely don't know how often people die in snow slides in Niseko (or Japan generally). Are there any stats which could be compared with the risks in other parts of the ski world?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| gorilla wrote: |
| I don't want someone new to the field thinking that there is anything like doubt or a debate. |
They should definitely be told the truth however. Too much safety gear is sold as the answer and we've seen airbag stats warped and possibly staged YouTube airbag demos. Last time I looked, all the YouTube airbag clips were successful outcomes, yet we know that isn't the reality. A newbie could be forgiven for thinking that a grand spent on kit is their safety sorted.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Bode Swiller, it'd be a little macabre and probably pulled immediately is unsuccessful airbag uses were filmed and put on YouTube! They do get reported though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| gorilla wrote: |
| Quote: |
Would it be relevant to ask ... how many people have died in avalanches in Niseko, and what were they kitted out with?
|
It's a bit late for that. There really isn't that much debate to be had here. I'm certainly not going to participate in something that might suggest there is more than one answer to the question "should you have rescue gear in the back country?" I don't want someone new to the field thinking that there is anything like doubt or a debate. |
Agreed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
ok,.. i along with others get a perverse sense of enjoyment from cg and pjski, and like to egg it along,... but agree the hijacking of yet another thread is just going too far.
however, Cg, as you seem to have catalogues of info at your fingertips for you to refer to, ... i say this as you seem to pull up scgb accounts blurb, and thread posts dating as far back as 2004 out of the bag at will, ... so to appease your adversary and keep him quiet, why do you not go back to the as you say well documented ski survey magazine edtions and just copy and paste the information he requires and post it up here. it will at last shut him up and do us all a favour.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I think the Niseko issue has been sorted.
Pjski may be hitting the same nail again and again with a large hammer, but he has a point.
DG was equipment editor of ski survey.
In that SCGB thread. DG says this...
| Quote: |
| Having learned the salutary lesson of triggering a slab avalanche in my early twenties, and losing my friend Willy Bailey (ex British Ski Team) to an avalanche in Verbier a couple of years later, I consider myself hugely lucky to have escaped death (and not only due to avalanches). |
So why the hell wouldn't he do stuff to mitigate the risk of and help those below him? Carry a shovel and a beacon. How much experience does he need to get the message?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Megamum wrote: |
why others are happy to provide the ammunition to help him do it.  |
Are you including yourself in that rank of "others"?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
abc, I guess, I sometimes don't help the issue, I ought to stick him on ignore, but I've run out of 'ignores' - he just presses all my wrong buttons - I just can't see why someone of such obvious intelligence persists in digging up such old and seemingly unimportant history.
In fact I try not to open many of his threads, but I was interested in this Japan one and disappointed that it got railroaded.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Fri 20-12-13 23:53; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
limegreen1, Gerry Aitken has written a big fat lie about me not having written about avalanche transceivers (which were covered numerous times, along with airbags) and other avalanche information - in fact, I once wrote an article about the scientists at the world-leading avalanche research lab in Davos, Switzerland. Gerry Aitken did not join the SCGB until 2001 ...
http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/user/profile.aspx/gerry-aitken-1#.UrTH2_vUbIg
... which is about 6 years after I generally stopped writing for the SCGB magazine (after writing over 150 articles between 1983 and 1995). So he knows nothing, and just makes up his lies to suit the moment.
Enough, already.
You'd like me to spend hours sourcing and scanning this stuff to satisfy either him or your goodself? After years of Aitken's smears and lies he himself should accept that on each and every occasion he's published falsehoods, the untruths have been proven with cited evidence. The fact that he can't accept another person's good faith and word is his problem in life ... not mine or anyone else's. In my view he's not a fit person to act as a director of the Ski Club of Great Britain and (as far as I can see) hasn't fulfilled the promises he gave to win votes from SCGB members to become a SCGB council member, either. Then there are the number of times he's insulted and abused members of this forum and the SCGB forum (using various false names) over a period of 12 years, often requiring deletions and/or official communications to desist. His motives (as far as one can see) are to keep the status quo in place - the hundreds of expenses-paid assignments awarded to SCGB leaders. But his 'tactics' are so crass and offensive that one wonders what they make of all this.
But thanks very much for the suggestion. The SCGB library should be able to provide the material you've requested.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
Would it be relevant to ask ... how many people have died in avalanches in Niseko, and what were they kitted out with? |
To my knowledge, in the 8 winters I've been skiing the Niseko Resort Area :
0 people have died in avalanches within the ski area boundaries
-----
2 people have been caught in seperate avalanche incidents and suffered injuries outside the ski area boundaries after exiting through the backcountry gates.
Some of the group were wearing transceivers and carrying shovel & probe.
-----
2 people have died in seperate incidents due to asphyxation when falling in glide cracks (huge holes) outside the ski area boundaries after exiting through the backcountry gates.
Both were wearing transceivers and carrying shovel & probe.
One, a Finnish skier was separated from his group and had passed away by the time his group did a lap to go look for him.
The other, a Japanese local, was skiing solo.
-----
2 people have died in seperate avalanche incidents outside the ski area boundaries after touring up from the road
Both were wearing transceivers and carrying shovel & probe.
-----
To put this in very local perspective,
2 people have died due to hypothermia and exposure after leaving the bar drunk and getting lost on the way home.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Funnily enough, I have never had to rescue anyone from an avi, but I did once rescue a guy who had fallen asleep outside an apartment block in the snow. He was that drunk that he thought we were attacking him as we carried him into the apartment foyer where at least he would not freeze to death.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
An all too common occurance unfortunately.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks for the useful information Mike.
Is there anywhere in particular that their glide cracks develop or is it just bad luck?
I guess the moral is, it's no good having the gear, but no one to dig you piy
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
My pleasure.
Typically Super Ridge in Hirafu, Mizuno sawa in Niseko Village, the second bowl in Moiwa, and Jackson's on the way back to Hanazono see the biggest cracks opening up.
They're pretty obvious.
The two guys died on an almost zero visibility day.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
We saw a huge glide crack on Jackson's last year (early Feb). One of our group dropped in to it, slowly and sort of sideways as he tried to ski around it so no damage done, but clambering out was quite tricky. The following day a group of local pisteurs (what's that word in Japanese?) were paying close attention to the same crack as we skied the same pitch.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Well this got hilarious.
Good work SnowHeads!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
rob@rar, by last year did you mean 2012???
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
DoubleBombardino, no, sorry, I meant 2013. Glad you 'dropped in' to this thread to share your experience 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
rob@rar, prego! bit of quality guiding that...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
stoat of the dead:"Pjski may be hitting the same nail again and again with a large hammer, but he has a point."
No, Gerry has a pint.
It's near-full in this photo, but it's running near-empty now. He hides behind it, as a SCGB representative and director, in this official SCGB photo (for reasons unexplained to date) but time's up now. It's time for our national skiers' organisation to explain its safety policies and practices - in all aspects - and for its representatives and directors to say something sensible for a change.
We're specifically discussing Niseko (which - no doubt - certain SCGB reps would love to rep). And we're specifically discussing avalanches in Niseko on in-bounds terrain - dangerous or fatal ones are quite rare on its slopes it would seem, even on the outer terrain (from the data provided by Mike Pow above), despite the resort's massive annual snowfall.
You, and other members of the snowHeads Avalanche Safety Brigade, insist that skiers on its off-piste slopes must carry transceivers, probes, shovels (and airbags? and mobile phones?). The Niseko guide, quoted in the opening post, takes a different point of view.
I'm inclined to side with the guide, as are many many other skiers who choose to ski off-piste without all this stuff ... taking their chances, on the basis of their experience and knowledge.
It may not be the safest or most responsible approach, in your book, but it's perfectly lawful and it honours the free traditions of skiing.
We could, of course, all drive around in ambulances ... in case we run somebody over. We could all wear helmets in West End theatres, in case the ceiling comes down. There are serious issues of commonsense, responsibility, cost and freedom to be balanced here. It's not all about 'moral judgements'.
You'd better explain your 'moral position' or 'moral high ground' a bit more credibly and eloquently, because it doesn't seem to add up. Ski resorts do not expect their punters to be rescue services, so they sell lift tickets without that imposition.
Carrying avalanche kit is optional, and long may it remain so.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guys - I've been reading this thread with interest and I for one think it has brought this topic to the fore (albeit sometimes childish)
IMO CG chooses not to ski with avi gear which is his prerogative and I don't have a problem with this - I understand this may be difficult to understand for some
But is PJSki really the director of SCGB? I find it hard to believe that firstly he would be posting in this forum and secondly someone of his stature would become involved in a cheap slanging match - I would expect someone in his position to know better - or am I wrong? (apologies for going off-topic again)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Johnor, reasonably conclusive evidence that PJSki=Gerry Aitken arose on 20 August 2013 ...
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=94856&start=1680#2331995
Gerry Aitken's Facebook account now seems to have been withdrawn.
He has also popped up, it seems, as "Pippin" on the Winterhighland forum. And it seems that a past pseudonym on snowHeads was "Tim Brown". Gerry Aitken's original posting name on snowHeads was ... "Gerry" (in 2004).
PJSki has had every opportunity to deny that he's Gerry Aitken, and thus a director of SCGB, on numerous occasions. "Gerry" has had every opportunity to continue posting as "Gerry".
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Comedy Goldsmith, how many members does the SCGB have? I'd guess less than a 5th of the number of UK skiers. What they say/think is pretty irrelevant for most of us, and most couldn't give a damn.
If you want to get into specifics, we were NOT talking about Japanese offpiste, we were talking about INBOUNDS UNGROOMED terrain. Totally different to what most of this euro-centric forum consider offpiste.
Can you find anyone, literally ANYONE, with a good amount of snow science/avalanche safety/snow craft knowledge who agrees with you?
Not wearing kit through ignorance and lack of education is one thing (and this is the category most who ski offpiste without the kit fall into). They have no real experience or knowledge to draw on to keep themselves safe, only luck. Wilfully flouting common safety practise is another entirely. In SOME places, at SOME times the safety kit isn't neccessary, but do you really think you have the knowledge to distinguish them?
Wearing helmets in theatres in driving ambulances everywhere would have a great impact on your normal activities. Obviously, as you well know, the cost-benefits of that do not work out. A more apt parallel would be wearing seatbelts. Wearing a transceiver and backpack has no impact on your skiing. You can buy a functioning transceiver for less than £100, or rent.
You yourself have lost a friend in an avalanche, have set one off yourself, and admit that to this day your decision-making offpiste is of low quality. So frankly (assuming you still actually ski), I don't trust at all in your 'experience and ability' to not set one off again - and who knows who else, other than yourself, that might endanger. People below, your own group, rescue services, etc.
There are more than enough avalanche deaths each season to show that there is a real risk. It's nothing like as controversial as the risk of head injury in the helmet debates.
Given your own direct experience of the deadliness of avalanches, I find it incredibly selfish and irresponsible that you continue to promote the idea that avi gear isn't necessary. Would you sit behind someone else in a car without wearing a seatbelt?
I think you're a dinosaur. Out of date and out of touch.
As an aside, there are places where skiing offpiste without a transceiver is not allowed - parts of Italy, some places in NA where you are not allowed out of the gates without one, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| clarky999 wrote: |
Given your own direct experience of the deadliness of avalanches, I find it incredibly selfish and irresponsible that you continue to promote the idea that avi gear isn't necessary. Would you sit behind someone else in a car without wearing a seatbelt?
I think you're a dinosaur. Out of date and out of touch.
As an aside, there are places where skiing offpiste without a transceiver is not allowed - parts of Italy, some places in NA where you are not allowed out of the gates without one, etc. |
Exactly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
