 Poster: A snowHead
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Boredsurfing, If you dive into the sparkling prose on the Teabangers forum, the faces wot know are saying unpaid so "Carry on Skiing Matron" . . . I still say nefarious machinations behind closed doors have made them feel safe. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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miranda,
I hope you are not misinterpreting what I was saying. Many will interpret this case in this way not me. The motivation for bringing the case must, I assume, be self interest. This is a great motivator for people all over the world. The point I was making is that to some it will add credence to the stereotype.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| So SCGB leaders paid or unpaid? |
Ah well, we've been here before. Question being "what is remuneration?" Access to free skiing that they would otherwise have to pay for - free lift pass, free accommodation, free travel (?) - is definitely remuneration in my book but whether it meets the French legal system's definition of being paid is another thing. Those freebie elements are essential in order to carry out their volunteer roles as leaders so, in my view not a declarable benefit in kind as argued by some in the past. So on balance I reckon they could successfully argue they are unpaid.
Regardless of all that, the French being the French, now that they seem to have seen off tour operator hosts, they'll probably start looking for their next victim.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Masque wrote: |
| .... Now they are just a TO...... |
To the extent that they recently gave a free (or discounted) Freshtracks holiday to a Times 'journalist' in exchange for a puff piece. If you can't beat 'em .....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Am I the only one who agrees with the ESF on this?
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Yes. Demanding some king of intruction/guiding qualification in order to ski about a load of blue runs all day is ridiculous. Unless you're suggesting that every skier out there should have one.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| So SCGB leaders paid or unpaid? |
I understand your favourite ex-rep (sacked for being a danger to others) is out in the Alps doing 'favours' for skiers in return for a free lunch and a bit of cash. Legal?
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pam w, Yes, agree that they are upholding the law, so maybe the law is at fault.
Rather than a father or a mate, I was thinking more of clubs, or other voluntary groups, who are still allowed to guide people around the slopes, maybe with little or no training.
Boredsurfing, Apparently our Ski Club is currently immune, as the leaders guide pax for expenses only, rather than for a salary.
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The really funny thing is that any one who owned a B&B / Hotel in aviemore and wanted to offer a "ski hosting" service on Cairngorm (i.e in the UK) would need the Scottish Ski Leader qualification.....
http://www.snowsportscotland.org/become-a-leader
Something for the anti-frenchie brigade to consider 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
The really funny thing is that any one who owned a B&B / Hotel in aviemore and wanted to offer a "ski hosting" service on Cairngorm (i.e in the UK) would need the Scottish Ski Leader qualification.....
http://www.snowsportscotland.org/become-a-leader
Something for the anti-frenchie brigade to consider |
If the French authorities demanded a qualification of that type for ski hosting/leading then I don't think there would be many complaints. As I understand it you might as well present your Cycling Proficiency Test as the Scottish ASL licence for all the recognition it would get in France.
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^ If anyone had lots of money / time / good lawyer I am sure they could ask Brussels if the Scottish ASL was valid in France. EU qualifications need to be valid in member countries (BUT to the same level of qualification that locals are expected to have). The arguement would then come down to if the court considered ski leading to be a branch of "instruction" or something else.
The fundamental point is that we also demand people who are "ski leading" in the UK have the correct qualifications. So clearly the French are not being totally unreasonable.
Unsurprisngly the French also have their own rules for people "ski leading" groups of school kids, or scouts etc. However these are for non-commercial purposes.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Haggis_Trap, Yes my feeling are for a non teaching qualification but the problem atm is the ESF/French have not got one or have stated what is needed.
Let's face it if you had an teaching qualification and are leading people around the slopes the ESF would still not be happy as you would/maybe giving instruction as well.
**edited to place a not where it matters **
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 21-02-13 9:59; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
The really funny thing is that any one who owned a B&B / Hotel in aviemore and wanted to offer a "ski hosting" service on Cairngorm (i.e in the UK) would need the Scottish Ski Leader qualification.....
http://www.snowsportscotland.org/become-a-leader
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If a retired ESF instructor decided to open a B&B in Scotland would he be required to take this Scottish qualification too? Or would the Scots, rather sensibly, view his medaille as an equivalence..?
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
Haggis_Trap, Yes my feeling are for a non teaching qualification but the problem atm is the ESF/French have got one or have stated what is needed.
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Is there a "not" missing from your post?
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You know it makes sense.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| So SCGB leaders paid or unpaid? |
I understand an ex-rep (sacked for being a danger to others) is out in the Alps doing 'favours' for skiers in return for a free lunch and a bit of cash. Legal? |
If anyone is guiding or leading without the official system and taking cash only that is totally illegal and very dangerous.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sat 23-02-13 10:47; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
If a retired ESF instructor decided to open a B&B in Scotland would he be required to take this Scottish qualification too? Or would the Scots, rather sensibly, view his medaille as an equivalence..? |
Hopefully the French instructor would be given an equivalence.
Although he should have to give a practical demonstration that he can prepare breakfast porridge.... 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| So SCGB leaders paid or unpaid? |
I understand an ex-rep (sacked for being a danger to others) is out in the Alps doing 'favours' for skiers in return for a free lunch and a bit of cash. Legal? |
Rarely do I agree with you but on this one you are spot on. Nope, when it's for cash that is totally illegal and dangerous. |
+1 and what is the effect on your own personal insurance in this case? Void I would imagine if the insurance compnay found out?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
Haggis_Trap, Yes my feeling are for a non teaching qualification but the problem atm is the ESF/French have got one or have stated what is needed.
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Is there a "not" missing from your post? |
DOH.. cheers
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Haggis_Trap,
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The really funny thing is that any one who owned a B&B / Hotel in aviemore and wanted to offer a "ski hosting" service on Cairngorm (i.e in the UK) would need the Scottish Ski Leader qualification.....
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Are you sure ? Is that a legal requirement ? An unqualified leader in Scotland would certainly not get insurance, but not sure they'd get arrested !
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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So to carry on enjoying a hosting/leading service in France
join the SCGB - for which you have to pay
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
The really funny thing is that any one who owned a B&B / Hotel in aviemore and wanted to offer a "ski hosting" service on Cairngorm (i.e in the UK) would need the Scottish Ski Leader qualification.....
http://www.snowsportscotland.org/become-a-leader
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If a retired ESF instructor decided to open a B&B in Scotland would he be required to take this Scottish qualification too? Or would the Scots, rather sensibly, view his medaille as an equivalence..? |
Yes... assuming their level of qualification was equivalent to BASI L2 (the standard required by locals for teaching on snow in the UK).
The main issue here is that the French don't have a qualification, or culture of, "ski leading" being offered as a commercial activity..
However they are not being unreasonable to outlaw UK companies from using totally unqualified "ski leaders".
In the UK we would do exactly the same thing (i.e in the distant past unqualified / unregistered ski schools have been banned from offering their services on Cairngorm)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Boredsurfing, or go to Italy, Austria, USA, Canada...
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
The really funny thing is that any one who owned a B&B / Hotel in aviemore and wanted to offer a "ski hosting" service on Cairngorm (i.e in the UK) would need the Scottish Ski Leader qualification.....
http://www.snowsportscotland.org/become-a-leader
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If a retired ESF instructor decided to open a B&B in Scotland would he be required to take this Scottish qualification too? Or would the Scots, rather sensibly, view his medaille as an equivalence..? |
Yes... assuming their level of qualification was equivalent to BASI L2 (the standard required by locals for teaching on snow in the UK).
The main issue here is that the French don't have a qualification, or culture of, "ski leading" being offered as a commercial activity..
However they are not being unreasonable to outlaw UK companies from using totally unqualified "ski leaders".
In the UK we would do exactly the same thing (i.e in the distant past unqualified / unregistered ski schools have been banned from offering their services on Cairngorm) |
In this case I agree, but with my previous comment I was cheekily making the leap to the debate regarding the 'portability' of full-on instructor qualifications...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Saw this on the French news today (BFM), they covered it very seriously, not a pique of Daily Mail or Fox News-esque xenophobic outrage.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
From Le Ski facebook page;
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| The ESF head office and ESF Meribel have decided to attach themselves to this case and have been awarded damages by the local court for loss of earnings. A statement released yesterday by the ESF asserts that they stand to make no financial gain from this action. This is misleading. The Albertville court has awarded damages. |
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Which is at odds with the press-release from the ESF:
http://www.esf-uk.co.uk/news
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“ESF has incorrectly been cited as being the organisation for taking the Le Ski to court for its own protectionism. It should be stressed that ESF has not brought the action in the French courts, but the Public Ministry’s (French Administration) did so in pursuing action against Le Ski for non-compliance with French regulations, after a Border Police Patrol Control found them to be contravening French law.
Under Article L.212-1 of the Sport Code in France, it is legal requirement to have a qualification to teach or lead skiing if remuneration is received.
The laws governing sport in France say that it is illegal to ‘teach, lead, guide, animate’ without an appropriate professional qualification. For professionals, and in particular for ESF, security on ski slopes is of paramount importance. Wintersports touring needs to be conducted with maximum security for those being escorted on the slopes with qualified guides/instructors. France recognises the equivalent professional qualifications for instructors and guides from other countries. Any qualified ski instructor and guide is allowed to operate in France and there is cooperation between European Ski Schools, so the qualifications obtained are to reach the European standards terms of certification. Certificates to operate officially are issued directly by the Ministry of Sports.
ESF will not receive any re-numeration as a result of this judgement other than its legal fees being paid for representing them as a “Civil Party” and importantly, ESF has never sought otherwise. The fine required by the Public Ministry to Le Ski is factored upon an infringement of law and missing Social Taxes to be paid on such activity. Contrary to some opinion, there is no financial gain to ESF.
This is not an ESF led court action, but the organisation has rightly shown its support for French law to be upheld and that for those organisations using hosting or other personnel to ‘guide’ such people must possess a valid qualifications to do so.
ESF is committed to ensuring the safety of UK tourists using French resorts for wintersports.
ESF reiterates its commitment to supporting the UK ski industry and will work with UK tour operators in finding workable solutions for lawful guiding on the French ski slopes”. |
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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feef, the statement you quoted from Le Ski is making reference to the statement you quoted from the ESF... The French press also said they would receive about 22k (but this will possibly only cover costs I guess).
As an aside, why do ESF never use the definitive article when referring to themselves? The have to in French so why not in English?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The ASL is no good as it is not a professional qualification. It is the equivalent of the French club type exams. You won't be able to force an equivalence on the French for their professional exams.
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You know it makes sense.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
feef, the statement you quoted from Le Ski is making reference to the statement you quoted from the ESF... The French press also said they would receive about 22k (but this will possibly only cover costs I guess).
As an aside, why do ESF never use the definitive article when referring to themselves? The have to in French so why not in English? |
No the press release from Le Ski states
"The ESF head office and ESF Meribel have decided to attach themselves to this case and have been awarded damages by the local court for loss of earnings"
That is not the same as costs.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| feef wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
feef, the statement you quoted from Le Ski is making reference to the statement you quoted from the ESF... The French press also said they would receive about 22k (but this will possibly only cover costs I guess).
As an aside, why do ESF never use the definitive article when referring to themselves? The have to in French so why not in English? |
No the press release from Le Ski states
"The ESF head office and ESF Meribel have decided to attach themselves to this case and have been awarded damages by the local court for loss of earnings"
That is not the same as costs. |
Here's the latest (as of this morning):
http://www.ledauphine.com/faits-divers/2013/02/20/un-tour-operateur-anglais-condamne-a-22-500-d-amende
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| Il devra verser 5 000 € de dommages et intérêts au syndicat national de l’école du ski français et 4 000 € au syndicat local de Méribel. |
So the ESF get 9,000€, and their press release denying it is lies.
Also interesting, for those following the TO wage debate, is this line confirming that part of the total fine of 22,500 was for paying staff under the French minimum wage (7,500€ for this):
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| Le prévenu a par ailleurs été condamné à cinq amendes de 1 500 € pour avoir rémunéré ses salariés en dessous du Smic. |
To recap, the prosecution originally wanted 15,000 in fines with 3 months suspended prison time just for the 'guiding' offences.
http://www.ledauphine.com/faits-divers/2013/01/12/le-responsable-d-un-tour-operateur-risque-de-la-prison-avec-sursis
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| dorsetboy wrote: |
| The school teacher situation depends entirely on the local authority and/or the governors of the school. |
If the school wanted morning-only lessons and then supervised (by teachers) free skiing in the afternoon then I guess this week's judgement makes that impossible? |
From my (limited) knowledge of the school ski industry I'm not sure the impact will be huge. Looking at the big operators, I know of one that doesn't offer France at all, another one that has less than 1% of their groups travelling there this year, and a third company that is still offering France but getting very few takers.
For school groups, France is far more expensive than Austria or Italy and less "UK school friendly". So I'd guess that the ruling will have little to no impact on the 99% of schools that either travel elsewhere or don't free ski anyway.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I can't help wondering if the minimum wage issue had been addressed would the ski hosting issue have been pursued.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Elizabeth B,
Totally agree, the smaller Italian resorts have always been much more school friendly than some of the larger French ones, which frankly, dont rely on the business that school groups provide. For example, some of the hotels in Claviere, Italy would be pretty much empty throughout the season were it not for British school groups coming out, so the whole resort is incredibly helpful and want to keep school groups coming back.
I think kids skiing with teachers is on its way out/ gone anyway, i've only ever seen one group do it, so i'm not sure whether this ruling would have an effect on that anyway - getting insuarance seems hard enough as it is.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| I can't help wondering if the minimum wage issue had been addressed would the ski hosting issue have been pursued. |
good point. I think we all know what the next step for the Minimum wage thing is. We all know who is paid well under it? all chalet staff.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| Hells Bells wrote: |
| I can't help wondering if the minimum wage issue had been addressed would the ski hosting issue have been pursued. |
good point. I think we all know what the next step for the Minimum wage thing is. We all know who is paid well under it? all chalet staff. |
Just made a separate thread on this side-issue with links to the Dauphine, think this thread has enough going on! http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=98198&highlight=
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Hells Bells, Dwarf Vader,
Everyone is on under min wage - I get around 100 quid a week, which condisering im essential on call 24 hours a day is bug all. (But more than some!!) But then i get free accom and food, travel, insurance, ski hire and a lift pass. Can you imagine the cost if i and every other rep, barman, chalet girl etc was paid "properly"? Carnage. 
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dorsetboy, I agree skiing with teachers isn't that common, but I've worked with a number af schools that have allowed it. Most have done it well although here has been the odd one where I've wanted to get as far away from them as possible.
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| dorsetboy wrote: |
Hells Bells, Dwarf Vader,
Everyone is on under min wage - I get around 100 quid a week, which condisering im essential on call 24 hours a day is bug all. (But more than some!!) But then i get free accom and food, travel, insurance, ski hire and a lift pass. Can you imagine the cost if i and every other rep, barman, chalet girl etc was paid "properly"? Carnage. |
I get paid 500€ a week to work in a ski shop, my employer also pays the rent on my private apartment during the winter and I can borrow any skis I want - he still seems to make a profit though.
Does your lift pass, food and easyjet return flight to resort really work out at 400€ a week? 
Last edited by After all it is free  on Thu 21-02-13 12:20; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
But then i get free accom and food, travel, insurance, ski hire and a lift pass.
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Few young people of the kind of age/skill/qualification level employed by the TOs could afford, on the minimum wage in England, even to pay for rent and food. Most seasonal workers can also afford to get drunk fairly often and ski a lot.
Their overall package does seem to add up to more than the "Smic" but the benefits in kind aren't taken into account. Would it be so difficult for the TOs just to advertise jobs, take the best applicants and pay whatever is necessary, leaving their employees to sort out their own accommodation etc? The British applicants would obviously have to compete against locals, many of them with access to cheap accommodation, and eastern Europeans etc.
But we're all in favour of fair competition and doing away with protectionism, aren't we?
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For working as a ski host I got £80/wk. And then accommodation, food*, lift pass, coach travel to/from resort and hire provided. The argument was that the provision of those other parts makes up for the 'balance' of a normal wage. During a normal week the pay worked out at about £1/hr.
If I'd been paid minimum wage, everyone would have been paying £2000 for their week in a chalet. Not going to happen anytime soon.
*food was included, but we weren't budgeted for... so that money didn't really exist.
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FAQ
