 Poster: A snowHead
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dorsetboy, thanks for that.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| dorsetboy wrote: |
| The school teacher situation depends entirely on the local authority and/or the governors of the school. |
If the school wanted morning-only lessons and then supervised (by teachers) free skiing in the afternoon then I guess this week's judgement makes that impossible? I've taught for Interski in Italy (just once, so not a big sample) and the pupils I was teaching did ski for about an hour after their formal ski lessons finished. As far as I could tell it was their teachers who supervised the kids (who were 13 and 14 years old).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar,
Im not sure, i guess if all they were doing were supervising, not providing any teaching, guiding, or leading - ie pretty much leaving it up to the kids where they went and just monitoring behaviour they could perhaps get around it? But that seems to me to be on shakey ground for the H&S side of things in the UK, and insurance etc etc etc. Bit of a mare school trips anyway, without the added faff of having to worry about whether a parent, or now the French, will take you to court for skiing with little Johnny outside a lesson when he falls over and breaks himself.
I think both this judgement and the blame culture back home will probably put an end to teachers skiing with kids without instructors. Non schools, it might be different.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w,
Yep, and there is the irony of banning guiding - gets rid of the bloke who would be able to say "now look, you are too useless to ski that safely"! 
Parents can do as they wish with their kids on the slopes, but "unqualified" teachers, nope!
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| dorsetboy wrote: |
Yep, and there is the irony of banning guiding - gets rid of the bloke who would be able to say "now look, you are too useless to ski that safely"!
Parents can do as they wish with their kids on the slopes, but "unqualified" teachers, nope! |
Very much so. I see it daily when some kid is just not enjoying it and/or is in danger just so daddy can brag how little "Sofia has done a black today" They are the ones who need prosecuting.
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As a single chap I have often selected a company on the basis of the fact that they provided hosting. When I do this in the future I will, by definition go to a non-French resort. So the ESF have shot themselves and their local economy in the foot.
I am not sure of the impact on SCGB leaders. It will completely undermine that organisation if it does mean the end of leaders.
Suspect this might be overturned on appeal.
This will I am afraid just bolster the French people's reputation for selfishness and arrogance. Whether they deserve that reputation or not
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| Mark1863 wrote: |
This will I am afraid just bolster the French people's reputation for selfishness and arrogance. |
Personally, I think it's a really good thing that British people who see this court ruling as confirming their belief that "the French people" are selfish and arrogant, and who make references to wars etc., will no longer be going to France; I suspect such people don't do much for the reputation of "les anglais" 
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I suspect from the lack of much comment and the rather 'laissez-faire' atmosphere over in the sKGB mausoleum . . . I reckon they've done a deal to not be targeted by either the ESF or the authorities.
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Doesn't the Ski Club of Great Britain offer some sort of in-resort hosting for their members? I wonder how this is going to effect them?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I do know, from good sources, that the SCGB has recently been in discussion with UK instructor/leader qualifying organisations about increasing the validity/recognition of the SCGB leader 'qualification'. So I'd be surprised if a 'deal' has been struck with any overseas bodies, especially given the Club's desire to lead skiers off-piste on the basis of a few days training.
A Club leader has recently endured a prosecution in Switzerland, not fully resolved after several years (as most recently officially reported), there were unconfirmed reports of some problem in Les Arcs recently, and the leader service in Mayrhofen is not happening this winter.
I joined the SCGB in 1962 but can't endorse the continuance of these activities any longer. The Club should and could have become a proper qualifying body of ski instructors in the 1960s onwards. The massive annual cost of around £1/4 million to maintain this semi-amateur service is no longer justified.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Comedy Goldsmith, I'm sure the club is seeking some sort of equivalency qualification to ring-fence it leader program from attention. I can see absolutely no reason for the club to work with or have any magnanimity toward the rest of it's competing TOs in this matter if there is a chance to keep leading when they can't.
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The National Ski Federation of Great Britain was established in the early 60's when the SCGB found administrating the national teams too much work and expense. The Sports Council funded the NSFGB and indeed their offices were in the SCGB attic in Eaton Square. The Sports Council wanted skiing to have a Coaching Scheme in line with other sports and part of this was the ASSI qualifiction. The SCGB initiated a qualification for pre ski fitness but not for ski instructing. Thay had no power to do this. In 1962 BAPSI was established and the rest is recent history. Despite wanting to pass on the responsibility of the National Teams to the NSFGB and indeed doing so, the SCGB has continued to want to influence British ski instruction and competition when in reality they were/are only a ski club.
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You know it makes sense.
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Alpine Logic, Now they are just a TO trading on past pretensions to glory . . . a real history which they appear to now be squandering.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Alpine Logic, excellent potted history. Couldn't have written it better myself!
All I'd add is that BAPSI (which became BASI) could and should have been an off-shoot of the SCGB. The Club should have been strongly represented in Aviemore, and keenly interested in qualifiying the first generation of British ski instructors. It's my impression that the Club's 'Belgravia issue' forged an aloof attitude to Scottish skiing. The SCGB was initially rooted in Scotland - in terms of core enthusiasts - because that's where you could ski economically in the first half of the 20th century.
That's not to deny that there were those who could afford to fly or train it to Switzerland/Austria ... which was relatively very expensive before charter flights existed.
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Poster: A snowHead
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There is a post (yes really) on the SCGB board this afternoon in response to a member's question, that the leading service is unaffected by the court decision because the leaders are unpaid volunteers. I know - we can all argue that one back and forth. I checked the website for a few of the French leader resorts and the leading service was being publicised as normal.
The post went on to say that further details of the judgement were awaited, so obviously that may not be the end of it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| It's my impression that the Club's 'Belgravia issue' forged an aloof attitude to Scottish skiing. |
You could put it that way yes, it'd certainly be possible to further suggest that 'SCGB' is to this day more a swear word than anything else in Scottish hard core skiing circles despite (or perhaps because of) more recent 'cosying up' between BASI and the club as the former organisation follows the Alpine pot of gold more and more.
Ironic in a way as more and more skiers on a budget, and potential or even actual club members, from south of the border find their way 'back' to the Scottish slopes, something that's really very apparent this half-term in Aviemore!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
kat.ryb, this is Interskis page on school trips. I assume before 10am and after 3pm would be up to the teachers in the school party to organise. From experience friends kids complained they weren't allowed to ski after ski school had finished.
http://www.interski.co.uk/snowsportschool.php |
I've done a few years with Interski, lessons started at 10, finished at 3, no skiing for the kids after lessons, they were away to do other activities, like skating, disco or whatever.
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Apparently, paid guides, who are to be banned by this ruling, are deemed unsafe by the French authorities, but unpaid ones are deemed safe and still allowed to operate.
Where's the logic to that argument?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Where's the logic to that argument?
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Employment is subject to laws which don't apply to families, or friends, etc. It's not exactly illogical. If I am kind enough to give you a lift in my car, that's fine. But if I require you to pay for the privilege, all kinds of laws and regulations come into play.
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| stephen buck wrote: |
| Where's the logic to that argument? |
Welcome to France.
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If the ESF say that safety on the slopes is their priority and is the main reason behind this ruling, I still don't see how an unpaid guide is deemed safe and a paid one is not?
I've read elsewhere that there are a good number of French clubs and associations etc that use unpaid guides, and the French would not want to put their roles at risk - maybe that is the real reason that unpaid guides will be tolerated.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 20-02-13 20:00; edited 1 time in total
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Bode Swiller, spot on!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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From Le Ski facebook page;
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| The ESF head office and ESF Meribel have decided to attach themselves to this case and have been awarded damages by the local court for loss of earnings. A statement released yesterday by the ESF asserts that they stand to make no financial gain from this action. This is misleading. The Albertville court has awarded damages. |
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| Quote: |
The massive annual cost of around £1/4 million to maintain this semi-amateur service is no longer justified.
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It is if the majority of the members deem it to be so. Now the SCGB has entered the world of on-line voting for the AGM it would be easy to put to the test.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
I still don't see how an unpaid guide is deemed safe and a paid one is not?
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that's not what's being said. I suppose they would argue that if an unpaid guide, or a daft-headed father, is shepherding folk round the slopes in an unsafe manner that's to be regretted, but not something which can be challenged in a court, however stupid the father might be in taking 5 year olds snowploughing down black slopes. .
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'm sure that davidof has stated previously that the most "qualified" member of a party can be considered responsible for any problems under french law. Not 100% and can't face trawling through threads for it.
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How about a TO contract that says "You are paid std weekly pittance for the following duties: Transfer rep, dishpig assistance whatever. Under no circumstances are you to ski with customers of Shonky TO Name here. However in your considerable free time you are free to spend it as you wish but you must ensure you are adequately insured - insert name of appropriate insurer as example. We will pay you an allowance for personal insurance"
"Free skiers" then act as informal carousel with people social skiing with each other's guests. All the free skiers keep the punters happy. Appropriate insurer to play the game found. Free skiers who take the wee wee find dishpig duties increased considerably.
Suspect it falls down on implied terms of contract that French court might impute.
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You know it makes sense.
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fatbob, I suspect the vast majority of British TOs are already breaking so many French employment rules and regulations that they'd be reluctant to rock the boat for fear that their entire business model could suffer.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| fatbob wrote: |
Suspect it falls down on implied terms of contract that French court might impute. |
And if the guests are to know about this "service" you are going to need to advertise in your brochure and website and so it is then obviously a service the tour op is providing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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fatbob, there will doubtless be a number of weasel-wording used to try to circumvent this and there will be more summonses. As long as the kermits don't demand that 'hosts' pass the TT I can see a lot of L2s not looking to teach but just having a cheap season's skiing and fun.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pam w, I guess we're coming at it from opposite view points. My argument would be that avoiding any accidents in the first place should be the No 1 priority, and not whether a guide, whether paid or unpaid, could be held accountable afterwards in a court.
Taking that viewpoint, I still can't see that a paid guide is any more or less likely to cause or be involved in an accident than an unpaid one.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It might be an idea if all British tour operators stopped using the ESF and directed the business towards the International ski schools or the newly formed British ski schools in the various French resorts. The down side of this is of course that many of the hotels and chalets used by the British companies are owned by ESF related families. At the end of the day its all down to money. We must of course understand that the ESF is a union, with full time employees who have to be seen to be acting on behalf of the membership. In other words,they have to be seen as doing some work. This is an easy, and prominent issue. Ski hosting and piste guiding came to the fore in the late 70's when Neilson, a small ,new tour company began trading, and employed many BASI member as ski guides. This kind of employment gave many British ski instructors alpine experience which allowed many to go on and become BASI trainers. At the time there was no opposition from the french ski schools. However at this time it was also possible to ski for free in many alpine resorts on presentation of a Grade 3 BASI licence.In 1981, it was possible to ski in Cortina without a lift pass, as long as you showed you're ISIA stamp to the lift operator. At that time only the Grade 1 Ski Teachers were issued with this stamp. However, its still not logical that 18-20 year olds,with limited skiing experience should be leading holidaymakers around high mountains in winter without some form of training. Both Britain and France have qualifications for such an activity. It would be easy to devise a course to meet both market and legal criteria. I'm sure there must be many ESF ski school directors who value Brithish custom concerned how their union's action may affect their turnover.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Maybe Le Ski should offer some free holidays to ESF instructors from other resorts.
It would be interesting to see what the appeals court had to say regarding a non-qualified ski host social skiing with a qualified french ESF instructor . . .
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Snow and Sunshine wrote: |
Maybe Le Ski should offer some free holidays to ESF instructors from other resorts.
It would be interesting to see what the appeals court had to say regarding a non-qualified ski host social skiing with a qualified french ESF instructor . . . |
Why would ESF instructors from other resorts take "a free holiday" - without payment for their time to ski with holidaymakers during the ski season - from Le Ski 
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| Quote: |
I guess we're coming at it from opposite view points.
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well I was coming at it from the point of view of the French law, which seems the relevant one, in this particular case.
The law lays down certain requirements of people who are, in their job, responsible for groups of people undertaking various sports/activities. It doesn't lay the same requirements on somebody's father, or their mate.
Your point of view might be perfectly logical if you were starting with a blank sheet and thinking about mountain safety, but that's not really the case here, is it? The Court deals with the law as it is.
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3 weeks ago, 5 guys came on one of our holidays. They wanted guiding round the slopes, showing the best cafes, the best runs, a little off piste here and there, the best bars, etc.
I hired a UIAGM mountain guide (and charged the guys for this). Everyone was happy. The guys had someone who knew the slopes, cafes, off piste, bars, etc. The guide had a week's work, etc.
What’s the problem?
If you want guiding round the slopes get someone whose job it is to do this and who has been certified and able to do it.
Am I the only one who agrees with the ESF on this?
PS - I don't work for the ESF
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Wayne,
What was the cost of this service per person
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wayne, not really that handy when you're on holiday by yourself or kids and others with you are in ski lessons. Would be a pretty expensive week.
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So SCGB leaders paid or unpaid?
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FAQ
dy well climb up and get it" look about her. I almost cheered outloud.
