 Poster: A snowHead
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stewart woodward,
Interesting data. Did they say how many failures there were? It would be interesting to see the pass rate at each age group.
On it's own the data shows a dramatic drop off with advancing age (ignoring under 19s) - however I guess fewer older people took the test so it's not clear what the data shows.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yeah the numbers of passes on their own aren't really useful, could be that 100% of over 35s passed and there were only that many entrants (obviously unlikely).
Pass rate might actually tell you something...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| stewart woodward, Are those the historic totals for the entire membership over the time the euro test has been a requirement ? |
I asked 'I hereby request copies of all analysis & data in connection with Age Discrimination regarding the Eurotest'. The data is their reply.
I have just received another email from BASI stating 'I was remiss in mentioning that these statistics are for the time-period of seasons 2008/9 to 2010/11'. So 3 years data.
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[quote="stewart woodward"]
| jjc james wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
Surely, if age difference has been properly considered and discounted then there will be proper analysis to support that assertion. Show me the data and I'll quite happily shut up!
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Thats fair, have you asked for it properly? On here doesn't count. |
As jjc james said on here'dosen't count' so i asked BASI for the data and analysis. No analysis of how the data has been interpretated has been provided but here is the data;
3 passes under 19 years old
27 passes 20 -25
20 passes 26 - 30
7 passes 31 -35
3 passes 36 -40
2 passes over 40 years old.
This totals 62 passes which really suprises me as i thought there would be more.
So 5 passes or 8% for the over 35's. |
It would be interesting to know where the passes were obtained too, as I can think of at least one test that might have skewed the stats a bit............ 
EDIT:- in fairness the one I'm thinking of was before the data supplied I think.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| jjc wrote: |
| iskar, I guess Sir Alex being top goal scorer in the Scottish league in 66 showed he could kick a ball |
There is only ONE result in 66 that matters 
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It looks like I'm one of the 7 people in the 31-35 age band who passed in that time period (Dec 08 ). I did 5 days of training in order to get to the level. What I really noticed about everyone else who was training for the Eurotest was how inefficient their training was. Each day a lot of people did about 3 warm up runs, followed by a few runs through the gates gradually getting up to speed. By the time they were actually starting to train at speed I was going home having made the improvements that I needed and I was still fresh to plan and makes my changes for the following day. They then started getting tired while they were trying to improve (or just going through the motions without clear goals on what to change). I think most people could get through the Eurotest a lot easier if they learned how to train properly/effectively.
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Simon, that suggests to me you were skiing at the level already, and 5 days was enough for you to apply those skills and physical abilities to the GS course. Significant competition experience might have helped too
However, as one of those who takes ages to get up to speed in the morning, any tips on how you get up to full tilt so quickly?
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| Wayne wrote: |
| skimottaret wrote: |
| for someone who could care less about the ET and the working rights of members within the EU you sure do shout loud |
Ah, it's a little soon for an argumentum ad hominem (details), my opinon is that it's a bit of a shame but no worries, that's the way of these arguments. (Not exactly Goodwin’s Law, but there’s still time )
It's quite simple.
If you want to work in the Snowdonia National Park as a Ranger, you need to be able to speak fluent Welsh.
....Why when they all speak English anyway?
If you want to work with me (in my part time summer job) you'll need a PHD.
....Why when anyone with an MA could do the job just as well?
If you want to teach skiing in France then (sooner or later) you'll need to pass the Eurotest.
....Why when you'll normally teach clients that don't need this level of skill?
If you want to teach skiing independently in our area (my winter job) you'll need to charge a set level.
....Why when cartels are illegal under local and EU laws?
Etc
Etc
Answer, as that is what the group/organisation in control has decided are the criteria. Jobs for the locals ?, pulling up the drawbridge ?, or is it maintaining standards ?, ensuring quality/safety ?. Those who fulfil the criteria will point to the later options, those without, at the former pair. All of the above examples are current criteria and may or may not be illegal but they are still in place and no amount of internet chat will alter this.
So, on that note, I'll take skimottaret's, point to note and say again
| Wayne wrote: |
| That’s me out of it. |
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This is tantamount to saying that debate and agitation to change/reform anything is pointless.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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simon_bates,
| Quote: |
| Each day a lot of people did about 3 warm up runs, followed by a few runs through the gates gradually getting up to speed. |
I've seen that as well and it struck me as not the ideal way to go about it.
balernoStu If I get around to more GS race training I'll be trying to make the first 2 runs of the day my fastest, and treating those runs in the same way as I'd hope to treat the race. So, a proper course inspection, course visualisation, piste warm up, and then 2 fast 'race' runs with the focus of 'racing' the course and getting a good time (whether timed or not). The following runs then have a specific technical focus as required.
That way I get to practice 'racing', all the other non 'technical' elements and ensure that the I'm fast out of the gate on my first run. On the day there is no building up speed and\or learning the course over a number of runs.
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| balernoStu wrote: |
Simon, that suggests to me you were skiing at the level already, and 5 days was enough for you to apply those skills and physical abilities to the GS course. Significant competition experience might have helped too
However, as one of those who takes ages to get up to speed in the morning, any tips on how you get up to full tilt so quickly? |
Yes, competition (and training) experience from other events definitely helped a lot, and it's only through all the mistakes I made that I was able to be so ruthlessly efficient in training for the Eurotest. I was 1.6 secs off the pace before the week of training so decided to improve 0.4 secs each day for 5 days so that I'd pass by about 0.5 secs.
Tips for other people:
Get properly warmed up physically and mentally before you start. You can warm up the muscles before you get on the snow. You can get a clear plan in your head of how you are going to use your training session before you arrive at the lift. Most days I did 1 on skis warm up run to find balance and get some adrenalin flowing (I find stamping before I start, going really fast and cranking the skis right over and taking some air help with that). The first day was probably 2 runs outside of the gates. I then did 1 inspection run and made sure I knew where all the gates where. That meant I could have drawn the course, counted the number of gates by visualising skiing it, etc. So not just having a look but properly memorising it.
Then when I skied the course, the first run had to be full speed. The same as it would be on the test day. That way my brain's only response to going round gates is to go full speed and attack. If you go into the course skiing slower then you are possibly concerned about making a mistake, missing a gate, etc. Just make sure you know the course and believe in yourself. The confidence will make mistakes less likely, and even if something does go wrong the first time you try attacking from the start then that's what training is for! If you are the first person in your training group to attack the course then you are probably the strongest candidate in the group for passing the Eurotest. Run 1 on race day is the test so you have to prepare for that.
Once first run in gates is done on first day then coach will give you feedback. Decide whether you just made a mistake somewhere and just need to concentrate/be more determined through that section, or if there is a technical change to make. Then make the change. Don't do the next run until you know what the change you need to make is and have that clear in your head. Then change it. Do about 3 more runs to continue making the change, again making sure that you are clear in your head before each run on what you are going to do. Then establish what the goal for the next day is (either by talking to coach or doing a final run for further feedback). Then go home so that you will come out fresh tomorrow knowing what you will do the next day. There's no need to keep training until you get tired and start making mistakes and getting frustrated. Ski training is not Eurotest fitness training. You do the fitness training in the gym etc beforehand. The Eurotest is only 1 (or 2) quality runs in a day so doing 4-6 in training is fine IF you made the improvements.
When you come out the next day, know that the changes you made the day before are done. If you made a 3% improvement on an area of skill on day 1 then start day 2 with that 3% improvement. Just be confident that you will do that (warm up physically and mentally first) and you will. Then get on with making the goal you'd set for that training session in the same way.
Doing runs through gates without being mentally strong to attack and improve just allows you to relapse to how you were skiing yesterday before you made improvements and gets you tired so you are less able to develop when you actually get round to it, and probably get more frustrated.
I'm keen to know if any of that resonates with anyone currently training, or helps at all. It's all just my opinion and I'm happy to discuss it further. Also everyone needs to find a way to train that works for them, but hopefully this helps somebody.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| bobmcstuff wrote: |
Yeah the numbers of passes on their own aren't really useful, could be that 100% of over 35s passed and there were only that many entrants (obviously unlikely).
Pass rate might actually tell you something... |
There are two aspects to potential discrimination:
Direct discrimination - is it harder for an older skier to pass the test. Pass rate would be a proxy, but to take a fair view you would have to look at the complete training time/effort required.
Indirect discrimination - what number of skiers of each age band decide to progress beyond ISIA because they are not willing to take the (perceived or actual) risks involved in training for and taking part in the Eurotest.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| I asked 'I hereby request copies of all analysis & data in connection with Age Discrimination regarding the Eurotest'. The data is their reply. |
Which only demonstrates either a fundamental lack of understanding of what is required to demonstrate statistical proof - or a lack of willingness to undertake any proper analysis.
Good on you for asking stewart woodward.
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FlyingStantoni, interesting they only used three years worth of data, either they dont have records going back, it was too much hassle to compile or possibly a large chunk of passes happened at the Garmsich Giveaway and that would skew the results...
Would you think that the data supports a claim that "Our own statistics show that there is no correlation between age and the pass rate and 19% of people passing the Test have been over 30."
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You know it makes sense.
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simon_bates, good training tips
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| simon_bates, good training tips |
+1
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Poster: A snowHead
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Would you think that the data supports a claim that "Our own statistics show that there is no correlation between age and the pass rate and 19% of people passing the Test have been over 30." |
Number of passes banded into age ranges supports nothing.
My stats is a tad rusty, but I would have thought you'd need to use T-test against an hypothesis (something along the lines) that race time has no relationship to age.
There must be a statistician in the house...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| skimottaret wrote: |
| simon_bates, good training tips |
+1 |
Yes, thanks Simon, and possibly worthy of a separate thread.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| skimottaret wrote: |
FlyingStantoni, interesting they only used three years worth of data, either they dont have records going back, it was too much hassle to compile or possibly a large chunk of passes happened at the Garmsich Giveaway and that would skew the results...
Would you think that the data supports a claim that "Our own statistics show that there is no correlation between age and the pass rate and 19% of people passing the Test have been over 30." |
yes, I would like to kow how many brits and how many total passed at that infamous test in garmisch.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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A good report on Facebook from the recent ISIA off piste security work shop in Davos a few weeks ago
http://www.facebook.com/IASIsnowsports
Sounds like it was a worthwhile event for the ISIA member nations. Derek Tate ( alpine trainer) and Robbie Fenlon ( IFMGA / mountain security trainer) attended for IASI
PSG
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skir67 - It was about the 20 mark I think....
Simon - good points if you're a strong candidate and doing a test next wk for instance. Totally agree you've got to give the first run hell and be physically and mentally ready for that run. If you're the fella I'm thinking of, you've a background in competitive skiing so understand how to dredge every bit of performance out of your bones so to speak. Personally I always found my second run was always considerably slower, even allowing for a more chopped up course. I do think if you're fit you can get more out of the wk or two before the test than some people do. Always something to do in the afternoon - starts, gliding and tucks for those flat bits, terrain changes, practicing high line and low line gs turns etc etc etc...
Obviously going super aggressive if you're just starting out on race training might have its pitfalls though.
Not too sure about those stats from basi - think they may be a wee bit skewed with a couple of tests where half the field got through in France and Austria which as far as i know hasn't been replicated in the last few seasons...Also think having a bit of age behind you can make you a wee bit smarter in passing. Lots of tactics to think about, as well as knowing how to get yourself properly fit and getting seriously tuned skis....
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Jonnie wrote: |
| Simon - good points if you're a strong candidate and doing a test next wk for instance. |
Exactly my thoughts - just what you should be doing if you are basically up to it but need some rough edges knocking into shape to get "match-fit". I think a rather different approach would be required though if you are a strong skier just approaching the idea of the speed test. From what little I've seen of trainees, and in my own training (for my summer slalom racing) there are a few fundamentals that need addressing before you get anywhere close to the level Simon is talking about.
1) Unless you've spent a long time racing you are almost certainly not carving as much and as cleanly as you think you are, and getting insufficient edge angle. In general skiing (even as an ISIA) you probably pivot to get that bit more when turns get tight, rather than going for higher edge angles. This dumps speed incredibly quickly. As an example, in training tonight (OK, slalom not GS) I was doing all I could to generate speed but making little difference. Then one run I got so late I was forced to just do all I could to get my legs around the gates and recover my line - which resulted in much higher edge angles, much less pressure on the ski, but a much cleaner carve, and I cut 0.4 seconds in a 9 second run. That would be 2.4 seconds on a 60 second run - an absolute age.
2) Once you have the pivot/edge blend under control, you need to think about line. Then think about line. Then think about line some more. The finally think about line again. You will almost certainly take too direct a line between gates, requiring too tight a turn at the gate - and dump speed on every turn. Sort out line and life gets a whole lot faster (and the G-forces go up and technique goes out of the window...so back to step 1) again)
3) Once you have the technique, and the line, you need to train your mind to react "properly" when things don't go right - because you will make mistakes on pretty much every run, and you need to recover in the most efficient way possible. This only comes with practice - so you do need to spend a lot of time in gates getting your head around what it feels to be like in a course. GS is less of a problem psychologically than SL, as you're not throwing yourself directly through poles, but you still need to commit to a tight line around gates that have the potential to cause you significant damage if you mess up big time - so you need to build up that experience of what is recoverable and how to avoid getting yourself into deeper trouble.
Those seem to me to be the basics - along with the fitness (as mentioned so frequently by jjc) required to keep in control when going at full tilt. Once you've got those fundamentals (and they're a lot harder to acquire than to describe) you're in a position to then take the approach Simon describes.
(Just the view of a johnny-come-lately racer who's highly unlikely ever to come close to the ET)
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| Jonnie wrote: |
| Not too sure about those stats from basi - think they may be a wee bit skewed with a couple of tests where half the field got through in France and Austria which as far as i know hasn't been replicated in the last few seasons...Also think having a bit of age behind you can make you a wee bit smarter in passing. Lots of tactics to think about, as well as knowing how to get yourself properly fit and getting seriously tuned skis. |
There was one in Alpe d'Huez in Dec 2008 where 51 out of 83 passed. Not sure how many were BASI members, but it's within the timeframe for the passes that they gave you.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| GrahamN, The point I was trying to make (and I suspect Simon too) is that that 1st run of the day gives you the chance to practice being a racer. |
Good point.
| Quote: |
| The point about being a racer is to get down the course as fast as YOU can, irrespective of your given skill set. |
For general fun racing...yes. For the ET...no; if your skill set is insufficient to get you a pass mark you're wasting your time and money entering.
| Quote: |
| By treating the initial run as a 'race', by doing a 'real' course inspection, practicing visualization skills, working out the best line, considering tactics and finally 'racing' the course develops and refines the full range of skills needed on the day. |
Yes, with minor reservations. If your skill set is such that you have to take a more conservative line or use more conservative tactics than are appropriate to making the grade, then you are ingraining those relationships between what a course looks like in inspection and what it will feel like to ski at your current skill set. If your skill set then improves, you will have to unlearn that relationship and learn a new one appropriate to your new skill set. If deeply ingrained, that can be a problem. If as part of that acquisition of inspection skills, though, you develop an understanding of the different lines the different skill sets allow.....then that reservation falls, but that's pretty advanced. (Although since at ET level you are becoming an L4, and qualified to coach racers, that would be a highly useful understanding to acquire).
Don't skimp on warmup runs out of the gates though. In addition to getting muscles warmed up and moving, take the opportunity to dial in your optimum balance skills, if you have a technical weakness (maybe are a bit slow to angulate, maybe have a temptation to pivot a bit), run through a few drills within those warmups to remind yourself what you should be doing. Not to the extent that you tire yourself out, but the skiing equivalent of that first cup of coffee when you get into the office in the morning.
| Quote: |
| I have a suspicion that the learning & development process probably already ingrained by previous Instructor training actually inhibits 'race' development for some and requires a significant change of mindset. |
Absolutely. Now the main lessons season at our slope is drawing to an end I'm having to get back into "race-mode" for the summer. Takes me about a month. And at the end of the last racing season it took me quite a while to get back into "Instructor mode". Looking at race timings in winter and summer races over the last couple of years, I'm as much as 10% slower in the winter. 
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| ... at ET level you are becoming an L4 |
There is nothing in the rules that requires you to do the Eurotest last, one approach is to start training for it after L2.
It can be worth being able to race with minimal warmup. You might draw an early bib and not have much time, or as at recent races in Meribel the only available warmup slopes may not be as well pisted as the race slope.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If you don't attack the course and ski like you should pass this year...then you'll be one year older when you do!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Graham N - If it makes you feel better I remember one of the Canadian coaches spent a LOT of time telling us how getting his CSIA L3 had totally ruined his racing... took him a season to get back into it after all the time spent perfecting instructor turns.
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| little tiger wrote: |
| Graham N - If it makes you feel better I remember one of the Canadian coaches spent a LOT of time telling us how getting his CSIA L3 had totally ruined his racing... took him a season to get back into it after all the time spent perfecting instructor turns. |
Makes you wonder
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret,
BASI seem to be getting a bit of a pasting on Facebook at the moment. The replies to some of the questions are as vague & inaccurate as some of the replies on this thread and the 'what is the point of ISIA' thread.
I think i have sussed out who Beanie1 is though 
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Poster: A snowHead
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stewart woodward, not sure they are getting a pasting imo just a lot of people spurred into discussion mainly through Phils thought provoking blogs...
didnt mean to out anyone but that is one drawback or feature of FB is that everyone knows who is talking... personally i prefer open discussion but there are a few that would prefer anonymous...
also good in the sense that only people who are on the BASI page can see the discussions, anyone i think can join and it isnt restricted to members only but it will bring the association less into disrepute than an open forum like this one
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Tania from BASI has published some more information on the Green paper on the BASI members area if anyone is interested...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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stewart woodward,
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I think i have sussed out who Beanie1 is though
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It was never a secret - I think my name was mentioned in the enews when I first started.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
not sure they are getting a pasting imo just a lot of people spurred into discussion mainly through Phils thought provoking blogs...
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I agree, debate is healthy. As I've posted on FB though, BASI doesn't have the resource to actively join in with all the debates that take place in social media. They are all followed though (by me), and I summarise and compile a report for Tania each month, which goes to the senior management team and the Board.
Where questions with factual rather than subjective answers are asked, I try to get answers to these.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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[quote="beanie1"]
| Quote: |
I agree, debate is healthy. |
If i recall correctly BASI used to have a forum page but it got closed down because they didn't like some of the debates.
With the new social sites debate will happen so i applaud BASI for taking action and creating a specific area for these debates.
| Quote: |
| Where questions with factual rather than answers are asked, I try to get answers to these. |
Answers seem to be more forthcoming when they have been asked on social sites rather than by letter to BASI. i.e The 5 month delay in replying to the group letter regarding age discrimination.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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A question to anyone who would know.
Do FIS points in masters races exempt a candidate from the Eurotest?
Are these points easier to achieve as the masters races are age handicapped?
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| Dunk wrote: |
Do FIS points in masters races exempt a candidate from the Eurotest? |
Interesting point. The exemption for FIS points is currently 100 for men & 85 for women. The agreement doesn't actually state that they cannot be from Masters races.
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| Dunk wrote: |
| Do FIS points in masters races exempt a candidate from the Eurotest? |
They shouldn't do.
FIS Masters races don't use a calculated penalty, so you can't compare the results from one race to the next, the points given just depend on who turns up that day.
French (non FIS) masters races do calculate penalties and there is some overlap of people doing them and also doing races alongside kids. I helped out at this one so have a feel for the standard, stewart woodward has done FFS Masters races too.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stewart woodward, I imagine they only do it for regular alpine, otherwise you could enter a FIS freestyle discipline and score under 100 fis points coming last as they go the opposite way to 1000.
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FAQ
The piste patrol guys and the Doctor weren't too impressed either 