Electric Vehicle route to the alps

A snowHead

We did our first trip in the EV3 in March.

The French and Swiss motorway networks are really putting the infrastructure in place, and we saw costs under €0.60 per kwh in places.

The biggest issue in the way down was self inflicted. We couldn't get the Ionity or Electroverse Apps to work. We have the cards now for the next trip. We had issues with the Total Energy chargers but had the app on the way back for it. The only tap and charge chargers we found were Shell and they were busy.

The open Tesla chargers were great and we found one with about 30 chargers just off the autoroute near Dijon.

On the way back it went like a dream, very happy, electricity costs of about £60.00 plus tolls.

14 hours door to door to West London on Easter Monday. Very similar to our old diesel.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Skoal, Assume that is a Kia? and they all have the same software, can you search for fast charging stations en route at all? I just hired an EV6 and couldn't see how to do that (for middle/end of journey).

Or did you use something like ABRP to plan the journey?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I once did a trial of reprogramming all 30 ECUs on a Volvo S80. At the time, Volvo considered the software in each module to be a spare part and had a central database that kept track of the revision state of each individual vehicle, would be interested to know if Polestar has followed the same model.

Ford back then didn't have nearly as close a link between the design of the cars and how you serviced and updated them.

You'll need to Register first of course.

We went to Lens a few months after our longer trip to Switzerland and I used the same process to do some forward planning. I actually reused the spreadsheets described on p.23 but obviously with far fewer waypoints. It ran like this.

1. Do a route plan using ViaMichelin and choose a primary route.
2. Go to the autoroute provider to get a list of aires/restoroutes with EV charging.
3. Use ABRP to find charging waypoints for cross-country segments (often in zones commerical or hyper/supermarkets).
4. Check these against Electroverse and Tesla.
5. Use ViaMichelin to get the distances between each site in [2,3]
6a. Put these into the cumulative kms spreadsheet (as on p.23)
6b. Put in your kms-per-1% charge to get the %charge version of [6a]
7. If necessary, research destination fast charger sites using Electroverse & Tesla

Bear in mind that Tesla sites tend not to be shown on the Electroverse app, because they’re not part of the scheme.

As mentioned, I have to do all this because the Peugeot satnav is useless in terms of anything EV-related. Whereas something like a Tesla is doing most of this for you in real-time. And my view is that the likes of ABRP and ViaMichelin (the latter gives pretty accurate estimates of charge% consumed between waypoints) unfortunately have map database errors in them which could cause significant problems if you used them while in transit. For example, both didn’t recognise that some single-site A26 autoroute service stations are accessible in both directions. And both occasionally throw up bonkers charging waypoints way off the main route.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@LaForet, This is what I did in a Tesla driving from Leeds to Verbier and back.

1. Inputted destination into the vehicle
2. Stopped when it told me to
3. Restarted journey when it told me to

I think your 7 steps is what I experienced when renting a non Tesla last week.

After all it is free

And your advantage is also that the Tesla nav will check the active status of waypoint charging stations and if they’re fully-occupied and obviously in heavy demand, suggest alternatives nearby, and/or modify the route plan accordingly.

And given the existential predictions around AI, we’re mostly still a million miles away from having the equivalent of a skilled navigator next to us that as drivers, we can just talk to. For example “OK, I think we should do some shopping as it looks like we’ll arrive at the apartment past closing time. So where should we stop if we’re going to spend 35-40 minutes in a supermarket anyway?”

LeFornet - Grok is actually not too bad at doing that sort of a redirect. I tried a couple of scenarios and it did quite a good job of meeting the ask i.e. go via a park we can spend 30 minutes at etc.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

@kitenski, it's buried in the menus, along with preferring motorway etc. It has a similar setting to what Tesla seems to have, planing charges at optimum points rather than 80% each time. We did 3 charges on the way home and stopped at each for longer than the charge anyway to re fresh ourselves.

It doesn't show Tesla stations but I have the app and could look for them independently. TBH we stumbled on the Dijon charging station looking for another charging point.

The biggest mistake we made on the way down, was trying to rely on apps when our signal was weak. We have an unlimited O2 account so roaming shouldn't have been an issue. Having the Total app was a great help on the way back, plus we knew where to go for Telsla.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

snow reports

I was prompted to put all out journey logs into a spreadsheet and it underlined how much faster charging is after the car's been driven for a while versus cold in the morning. At the end of day#1 I charged it at 0.96 kWh/min just after we checked-in to the hotel, but in the morning from cold at the same Tesla station nearby, it was only charging at 0.29 kWh/min.

So the lesson is - if you have the option, charge-up for the next day at the end of the previous, rather than from cold.

And looking at the numbers, I'd revise the time down to 40-50 minutes each of the two days (Brighton->Champagne->Switzerland) spent on charging just for the sake of it, so to speak. That is, when we weren't already waiting at LeShuttle, or stopped for a rest break/lunch or shopping. So that's an extra 1h20m to 1h40m over an ICEV for a 500-mile journey. And strictly speaking, you'd have to subtract the time to refuel the ICEV, even if it's only 10 minutes. TO be scrupulous, these are charging times and don't include waiting. On our trip, we only waited once for 10 minutes. On the way back, we didn't wait at all, but obviously this may vary.

We have a Hyundai Kona, and I've never even tried using the inbuilt software to navigate to chargers. My approach is:
1. At a stop, use Google Maps to view the overall route of the day.
2. Eyeball a town roughly where I expect the next stop to be (e.g. a typical driving day is 4 stints, so for first stop, look for somewhere just over 1/4 of the way (as the first stint is a bit longer, as starting with more charge))
3. Enter the town from step 2 into ChargeMap app to find somewhere with multiple (4+) rapid chargers en route. If intending to stop for food, check what's nearby, and also quick check of current state of chargers (e.g. if all in use, look for an alternative)
4. Chargemap will give me a link to open the charger in Google Maps. Check the distance is as expected, and do rough calculation of how much charge we need to get there with sufficient margin.
5. Set destination in Google Maps
This takes about 5 minutes during each stop.

I've used this approach for ~10 trips to the alps, and a few other trips needing multiple charging stops. It is easier with experience, as there are some stops you know and reuse. The biggest problem I have is my phone tends to lose signal when crossing a border, and only starts working reliably after a restart. Up till now I've always had a passenger with a smartphone, so we double up the navigation if a stint crosses a border

You know it makes sense.

While I do complain occasionally about the Volvo software, it is similar to the Tesla in that you put in what charge cards / systems you want to use for preference (Tesla, Electroverse, Ionity for us) , then like ABPR, what % you want to arrive at your destination with, and it tells you where to stop and for how long.

Simples...

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Final stat from my analysis of the Switzerland trip of 1,062 miles is cost - 9.1p/mile using Electroverse and Tesla public fast charging.

This compares to 1.8p-2p/mile home charging and 24p/mile for my ICEV (pre-Iran prices).

So clearly almost x5 more expensive than when charging up at home, but still significantly cheaper than doing the trip in our ICEV (admittedly a thirsty 3-litre turbo 6-cyl M235i Convertible).

A snowHead

Yeah that’s not really a nationally representative comparator…

A snowHead

The costs typically aren't really that important for me personally. Even if it costs the same as it would in an ICE car thats fine as I know that 90% of the driving will be done at the cheaper rate. This is just the edge case where I need to use public charging. The year fuel/energy costs is the real comparison

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I have done the sums on an EV and did a tarriff check to see if the cheap overnight charging rate would save me loads.

My energy mix is mainly gas, so the 40% premium to go on an EV tarrif works out at £113 a month more to get the 5p electricity, there is a saving but not quite the clear cut saving that the headline 1.5p a mile shows. I do about 1000 miles a month at 40mpg (so 250KW I guess) pre Iran price gives 25 gallons at £6.00 (£150) vs £113 plus £12.50 (£125.50) so it seems I should stay on my standard tarrif, and just charge at 20p a unit.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

@blahblahblah, who are you with that charges a 40% premium for cheap overnight?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

40% premium on cost of gas, British gas unit price moves from 5p to 7p a KW. I use much more gas than electricty, 40,000 a year.

I checked against Octopus as well, they also increase the electricty rate by 10p in the evening.

Just pointing out its not clear cut if you are paying a premium for non EV use which is never talked about.

You'll need to Register first of course.

@blahblahblah, not my Octopus tariff - Intelligent Octopus Go - which currently is 4.96p/kWh between 11:30 and 05:30, and 26.54p 5:30am - 11:30pm. (45.44p per day standing)

(Our Gas from Octopus is at 5.66p / kWh - not sure what your unit is - cubic metres or KWh - it's about 10KwH per m*3 )

Because we charge our battery at night too (to cover morning usage before solar kicks in) when you add in EV charging our usage last month was 300kWh at the cheap rate, 45kWh at the standard.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@blahblahblah, how does your electric tariff affect your gas tariff, I didn't realise the two were tied? I was on the tracker Octopus gas where the price changed daily and Intelligent Octopus Go for the EV charging.

After all it is free

I know this question is off-topic but I didn’t think it merited a new thread so I’m posting it here….

I’m probably going to take the plunge and change my ICE car for an EV so I was doing a little research and stumbled across this comment on the RAC website. “ A constant speed, with little or no regeneration – where kinetic energy is harvested and sent back to charge the car’s battery on deceleration, potentially boosting range as you drive – depletes EV range faster, so you may want to take a more direct route on slower roads to maximise your potential distance.”

I would assume the RAC know what they are talking about but this makes no sense to me and would seem to violate a few laws of physics. I appreciate a direct route may be a good idea but the idea of regeneration ‘boosting range’ seems counterintuitive and violates a few laws of physics. Thoughts?

I can't see how that works. I've got a hybrid and whilst it recharges nicely rolling downhill I've burnt through loads of battery getting up the hill in the first place.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

It’s a bit of an odd statement from the RAC which seems to conflate two issues, regen braking and speed-related efficiency. Returning some energy to the battery by regeneration braking is a good idea. Separately, driving at a lower speed will provide more efficiency from the drive train (mainly for aerodynamic reasons). So driving at a lower average speed, especially if it includes a more direct route, will get you more miles per kWHour, although it might mean a slower journey. I’m not sure the RAC’s statement is helpful for those who don’t have much understanding of EVs.

I’m now in to the fourth year of EV ownership, including a number of drives to the Alps. I’ve not felt the need to change how I drive at all. Still drive at the same speed La as before, still run things like air-conditioning, heated seats, etc just as before. Very quickly realised that range anxiety was not justified, and I should just drive the car without making any significant accommodations because it was an EV.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

@rob@rar, Do you still plan stops meticulously or are you more blasé about it now?

snow reports

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

@rod@rar this is exactly how I use mine. I think sometimes people over complicate driving an EV. I charge mine to 100% at home then put the Ski resort into the satnav and do what it tells me to do. The satnav adjusts for how I’m driving And how busy the charge stops are and I just charge for how long it tells me to. Normally ends up being a bit longer because we have a bite to eat or a coffee. I’ve done three trips to the Alps and back now and I think you end up stopping possibly once more than you were in a petrol diesel. If we do an overnight stop, we choose a hotel with on-site charging and then I don’t think it’s any more stops at all. Cost Wise it might be a tiny bit cheaper if not the same as normal fuel but the rest of the time I’m charging at home and it’s cheap. In short, it’s all very simple.

A snowHead

@Warnergb7, which car do you have?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I assume it is not politically correct to point out EV range at 130+ kmh drops like a stone. I just checked and my range would drop to 180 miles from 345 (alledged) miles, and nobody wants to drive up an alp on 8% charge. That said Rob has real world experience and I am just using theory. EVs for most people most the time are fine/great, but a trip to the Alps is the outlier for many that is a problem. Obviously super fast charging solves this to an extent.

I have not taken delivery of the car as yet.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

@kitenski it’s a Porsche taycan. @blahblahblah yes range goes down at speed and even worse it goes down in the cold! In the worst conditions at 130kph I got between 200 and 230 miles from 85%ish charged down to between 5 and 10% charge. Car tends to then find a good charger and it’s back at 80% in 25 minutes or less. Because you start at home on 100% I get to Reims from London, charge overnight and then it’s 2 stops. I normally go to a supermarket near the bottom of the slopes, charge while you shop and then drive up.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@Warnergb7, oh great thanks! Good to know it's not just the Tesla that people trust to route them, I think further back someone else said they let the Volvo car nav sort it all out.

How is it BTW? It's on my possible list for a 2nd hand one when my Tesla lease is up....

You'll need to Register first of course.

@blahblahblah, you’re right to point out that driving an EV to the Alps is an outlier situation. It’s absolutely the worst case scenario for driving an EV: very long distance route, mostly driving at motorway speeds, done in winter weather, with lots of elevation change. This means it’s the least efficient driving that I do all year. I’ve always done the drive to the Alps in a single day as I live about 90 minutes from Folkestone, and when I first bought the EV (a Tesla Model Y) I hoped that I would be able to do the same but accepted that if I had to break the journey overnight that would be a small price to pay for the convenience of the rest of the year. But over the last three winters I’ve not found a significant difference in the journey compared to the diesel cars I previously drove to the Alps. For me it takes about 90 minutes longer than it used to be, but I still complete the journey easily in a single travel day, with the bonus of spending less on energy/fuel to get there. For the first couple of trips I did lots of planning about where I might want to charge, and with hindsight I interfered with what the car would have suggested, resulting in a longer journey. This winter I simply stuck the destination in to the satnav and followed the directions exactly. Result was the quickest journey yet, with zero navigation effort in my part. EV charging facilities in the larger resorts seem to be improving every year, and I’m lucky to have 6 slow speed chargers just a couple of minutes walk from my apartment in Les Arcs so arriving with 10% battery charge isn’t a problem, plus there are two high speed chargers just down the valley which I can use when I go grocery shopping or when arriving/departing. One of them is Tesla Supercharger which cost just 22 cents per kWh when I used it this winter, the cheapest high speed charging I’ve had ever.

For the first few months of EV ownership I had the same range anxieties as the majority of owners will experience, I suspect, but since then I’ve not had any concerns about planning longer routes. These days I don’t bother much with researching possible charging locations. They seem to be widely enough distributed for me not to worry about charging away from home, and the car does a good job of route planning, including charging stops.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I think that is a very fair (lived in) assesment. I find the whole war of the propulsion units a bit odd.

The spread of chargers slow or fast will make it simpler and technology on charging seems to be very fast (forgive the pun).

After all it is free

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

@rob@rar, not a problem for us at home, but it most definitely is in France. Not for the journey, but our neighbour has to dangle a cable over his balcony and use another neighbour's parking space to charge his for the journey home. If that space is occupied, he would be stuck.

Help!!

Electric Vehicle route to the alps

snowHeads Forum Index >>> The Piste