 Poster: A snowHead
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So our local (PdS) resort websites are announcing that all the upper lifts and any that provide links to the other resorts will be closed tomorrow. They say it's due to high winds, an avy-risk of 4/5, and the French doctors being on strike. This may well be a sensible decision, but it's the first time I remember seeing the Lift Co's restricting access openly publicised. They have been doing this on powder-days (both high and moderate avy-risk) for many years now (a lot more since covid), but it's always been by stealth. You get to the bottom station and it's either deserted with the barriers across, or there's a poor lifty half-heartedly trying to dig-out the load ramp turning you away mumbling something about too much snow or "en panne".
So ok it's a safety decision, since the recklessness you see on a dodgy powder-day as soon as the lifts open is chilling to witness for anyone with mountain awareness. But is it really the lift-co's job? Everyone in France skis off-piste at their own risk, and it's up to them to go or not go, to make their own risk assessment, and to make their own insurance arrangements. So there's no possibility that the lift-co can be held responsible for off-piste accidents; but what about the bad publicity, and the need to put the Pisteurs in harms way when a tragedy occurs  ?
Skiers from the days of skinny-skis will remember when it was different - if they could open something they would. And the few skiers who had spent many weeks learning both the techniques and picking up mountain awareness, on the whole survived. Yes people still got caught, but in much smaller numbers, and pre 24hr rolling news were not really noticed. Now the feeding frenzy (stoked by the gnar movie industry and maybe fewer powder-days) sees thousands of inexperienced and under-educated fat-ski idiots and boarders going anywhere they see an untracked line, without a second thought  .
I must say it rankles with me, but the world has moved on and become much more "managed". We certainly can't just count the bodies at the end of each powder day. It's a shame that we can't trust people to educate themselves and be responsible though, particularly if you just want to take the blue run over to the next valley for lunch. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Actually disagree.
I don't mind rocking up halfway through the day to find a lift has closed because of conditions. But I really prefer to know before the start of the day that whatever lift is shut until PIDA has done their thing.
Am I making sense? It's late!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Don't know the specifics of the area, but I would think if there's an infrastructure risk due to avalanche then they would be keen to close access, and if they know it's going to be like that, why not inform people as soon as possible. Nobody wants to lose a lift.
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| Quote: |
They say it's due to high winds, an avy-risk of 4/5, and the French doctors being on strike.
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So what is the problem? Seems perfectly reasonable - wind or avalanche danger alone could justify it.
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So there's no possibility that the lift-co can be held responsible for off-piste accidents;
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The lift company have to secure the pistes, meaning also the slopes that could slide onto them. If they can't do this control and there's an avalanche affecting someone on a piste Id guess they can be held responsible. Also it's a really bad look having slides onto what is supposedly safe controlled terrain.
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if they could open something they would
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There is no real hard evidence they can open stuff safely tomorrow. While it might be true, it seems just as likely there are legitimate reasons why the lifts can't be opened.
Fwiw I don't disagree with the suggestion there are a lot of people making terrible decisions on a powder day. I just don't think there's any real proof that's the reason for the resorts closing lifts. And even if it is, I'm not so sure it's a bad thing, sometimes you have to protect people from themselves, and it's not just themselves they affect - it's not a particularly pleasant experience for rescuers digging out bodies!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Lift closures in Les Arcs yesterday (and, I suspect, today and at least part of tomorrow) were typical of what I’ve seen for many years after this amount of snowfall, especially combined with high wind and significantly unstable snowpack as a result of a month of no fresh snow. In each case the lifts that are closed serve pistes which have steep terrain above them which could avalanche on to the piste. In the Arc 2000 bowl the one main lift that stayed open is the only one that doesn’t access pistes that are exposed to steep terrain above.
I don’t think the resort is limiting access to off piste terrain per se, it’s limiting the number of pistes which are threatened by avalanches from terrain above the pistes. Somewhat related, the road to Arc 1950 and Arc 2000 are often closed for a short period of time in the very early hours to allow avalanche clearance from the terrain above the road. there are a couple of photos this morning on Facebook from that work, showing avalanche debris more than a metre deep had covered the road and had been cleared by snowploughs.
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Some of those like the OP who remember skinny skis may have rose tinted memories.
In whistler, big white and sun peaks at least I've direct experience of slope safety work, and whilst I might think chucking a few old folk down cliffs may be more fun than using bombs, it's not a practical solution. Locals do not see the world like the OP, because that's not how it is
Talk to the patrol and they will likely help the op understand the work better.
Nonsense.
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@phil_w, well I was not going to bother posting in this thread, until I saw your comments...
I distinctly remember a well known French Mountaineer 40yrs old who happens to be a guide and a local (we bought the appt he grew up in) and circa ten years ago I was up the hill with him as he was guiding a group of friends just as the new closure protocols were starting to happen and he was very frustrated with the whole scenario as he basically said it would affect his livelihood if the mountain was closed etc
That was a long time ago and we've got used to the upper sections being closed way more than before, taking first lifts like yesterday often means hanging around for 30mins which was indeed the case yesterday.
It is happening far more, and it is a reflection of the cotton wool society we have to now endure, fortunately I can feck off and kill myself ski touring without the Woke Millennials trying to stop me 
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Ok thanks guys, so everyone's ok with it. As I said, I accept it's necessary (particular with the added element of the doctors strike), it's just such a blunt instrument if it's only about restricting reckless skiing. But as you say there are many other factors of which we might not be aware; of course if there's an infrastructure threat or risk to on-piste safety then they have to close. I will try to stop feeling annoyed by it and be content with a bit of mid-mountain side-piste until they're ready to open. Be safe out there! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| shep wrote: |
So our local (PdS) resort websites are announcing that all the upper lifts and any that provide links to the other resorts will be closed tomorrow. They say it's due to high winds, an avy-risk of 4/5, and the French doctors being on strike. This may well be a sensible decision, but it's the first time I remember seeing the Lift Co's restricting access openly publicised. They have been doing this on powder-days (both high and moderate avy-risk) for many years now (a lot more since covid), but it's always been by stealth. You get to the bottom station and it's either deserted with the barriers across, or there's a poor lifty half-heartedly trying to dig-out the load ramp turning you away mumbling something about too much snow or "en panne".
So ok it's a safety decision, since the recklessness you see on a dodgy powder-day as soon as the lifts open is chilling to witness for anyone with mountain awareness. But is it really the lift-co's job? Everyone in France skis off-piste at their own risk, and it's up to them to go or not go, to make their own risk assessment, and to make their own insurance arrangements. So there's no possibility that the lift-co can be held responsible for off-piste accidents; but what about the bad publicity, and the need to put the Pisteurs in harms way when a tragedy occurs ?
Skiers from the days of skinny-skis will remember when it was different - if they could open something they would. And the few skiers who had spent many weeks learning both the techniques and picking up mountain awareness, on the whole survived. Yes people still got caught, but in much smaller numbers, and pre 24hr rolling news were not really noticed. Now the feeding frenzy (stoked by the gnar movie industry and maybe fewer powder-days) sees thousands of inexperienced and under-educated fat-ski idiots and boarders going anywhere they see an untracked line, without a second thought .
I must say it rankles with me, but the world has moved on and become much more "managed". We certainly can't just count the bodies at the end of each powder day. It's a shame that we can't trust people to educate themselves and be responsible though, particularly if you just want to take the blue run over to the next valley for lunch. |
Upper lifts have delayed openings on powder days because they need to make that all the pistes are protected from avalanches.
A skier on a piste without any avalanche gear who gets buried by an avalanche triggered by a skier doing off-piste above is impossible to find in a timely manner. Have a search for people doing line searches with probes. It takes hours and dozens of people. With an avalanche you need to find the victim within 15 minutes otherwise the chances of survival plummet massively. There were a couple of famous cases in Tignes and Les 2 Alpes.
If a skier on a piste gets buried by an avalanche when the lifts are open that is the resort's fault and they would get sued.
Given the amount of terrain to cover in some resorts it can take a long time to secure all the pistes, especially when it is still snowing overnight. They will have a strategic plan from avalanche security for the resort. They can secure certain areas with permanently fixed Gazex and Catex systems but they don't always have them on every area where avalanches could threaten the pistes. A lot of the blasting is still done by pisteurs going around the resort and throwing sticks of dynamite down slopes.
Links get closed on high winds days because it is a pain in the back bottom for everyone when links have to close midday because the winds increase and suddenly guests are stuck 2 hour taxi drives from where they are staying.
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I suppose it also comes down to the fact that lift-served off piste is probably not the priority to a lift company; yes, there are undoubtedly a ton of experienced tourist and local skiers who only do the more adventurous stuff with the correct training and equipment, and it’s great marketing for the resort to offer it, but the lift company maintain a network of lifts and accompanying pistes primarily for users who prefer piste skiing - that will be their priority AND their bread and butter clientele - and if safety and protection from avalanches on those pistes means closing infrastructure, then it has to be accepted. Most people would accept it.
No matter how adventurous I reckon I am as a holiday piste skier, I’d rather know that things are as safe as possible for the majority like me, than offer up something less safe for a select few
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sat 10-01-26 8:49; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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They close lifts in high winds and thunder storms not to restrict off piste skiing but for the safety of people on the lifts. They close the avalanche prone areas to protect people skiing in that area from avalanches and this includes people using the pistes
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Weathercam wrote: |
It is happening far more, and it is a reflection of the cotton wool society we have to now endure, fortunately I can feck off and kill myself ski touring without the Woke Millennials trying to stop me |
More likely a reflection in improved understanding of risks, and better strategies to manage them, hopefully resulting in less people ending up dead. Particularly the ones whose job it is to get that terrain open.
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the cotton wool society we have to now endure,
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Yes, some of us are pathetic, in that we want not only to have machines to carry us up hills, but we want to be as sure as possible that the open pistes we use to come down again are not in danger of being avalanched.
If that's "woke" (and thus automatically fair game for disdain), then fine.
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You know it makes sense.
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As a matter of interest is it the lift company`s responsibility to get people safely off a mountain if the lift they`d been waiting for to download is closed?
Many years ago I was stuck at the top of a cable car lift for maybe 3 hours with two small children. (no facilities!) We`d decided it was too unpleasant and risky (high winds and heavy snow) for us to ski down, though my husband and eldest son were happy to give it a go. All the very surly operators kept saying to me, and a few others in a similar position, was that we had to ski down!
Eventually they got the cable car going and we had a very bumpy and somewhat scary ride down. It was a very unpleasant experience.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think you also have to remember there are only so many pisteurs in a resort. In Tignes it is the Regie des Pistes that declare a piste open not the lift company, the lifts can't take punters until the person in black says so. There is a colossal amount of work to do (and in the case of Tignes the pisteurs have responsibility to ensure the road down to the Dam is safe - thats what some were doing this morning). Its a big job and a big responsibility and once a sector os declared open they also have to man the first aid posts which takes them off avalanche duties. Additionally, if they trigger an avalanche on to a piste that has then to be bashed by the piste services.
Bottom line - we do not live in a theme park, its not just the flick of a switch on a morning.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@shep, they aren't closing them to deny access to off-piste though are they? Aren't they closing them to deny access to avy threatened pistes (and endangered lift stations?) and the staff and equipment to clear that risk. Nothing new about that.
Besides on a level 4 day are you sure you want to be skiing those off-piste areas?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| adithorp wrote: |
@shep, they aren't closing them to deny access to off-piste though are they? Aren't they closing them to deny access to avy threatened pistes (and endangered lift stations?) and the staff and equipment to clear that risk. Nothing new about that.
Besides on a level 4 day are you sure you want to be skiing those off-piste areas? |
And there is the issue
Too many people who believe they can ski off piste because the kit they have makes it easier and who are incapable of assessing risk and want to get out there at all costs
The sheer numbers with that attitude make it very possible avalanches will get triggered and will need rescuing alive if they are lucky
They just don’t see the risk and are shocked when the real world hits them in the face and then expect someone to rescue them
Entitlement
As Chocks say it’s not a theme park!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| adithorp wrote: |
@shep, they aren't closing them to deny access to off-piste though are they? Aren't they closing them to deny access to avy threatened pistes (and endangered lift stations?) and the staff and equipment to clear that risk. Nothing new about that.
Besides on a level 4 day are you sure you want to be skiing those off-piste areas? |
Not challenging you at all Adi, you've just hit on the two point of the discussion I guess I'm trying to explore. You're right in that correctly they won't open a piste if it's threatened by avalanche. One of the few benefits of being in a relatively low-altitude ski-area ( ) is that our pistes do not have another 2000m of untamed mountain hanging over them. The majority of off-piste terrain is either between the pistes, or over the ridge in the next (piste-free) bowl. There are localised spots where avy control has to be done before a piste is safe, the Pisteurs know all those spots, and historically on 9/10 powder days could make them safe before or soon after opening time (thanks guys!). So let's keep doing that and then get the thing open if possible, not just shut the lift for the day.
I absolutely would not be skiing the 45˚ side of the chair on an avy4 day, but it pisses me off that because of the idiots who duck the rope on that side at the top, we have to be denied the pleasure of the perfectly safe 30˚ side that the Pisteurs would be quite happy for us to all to be enjoying, if they didn't have to cater to the lowest common denominator.
So as I said, I've no problem with closure due to weather or infrastructure risk; but if it's about protecting us from ourselves, I wish we could find a better way - that's all 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
but if it's about protecting us from ourselves
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But you have no actual evidence to support this, it's just complete speculation. The reasoning of high winds alone can justify the closure.
Even if it was true you also have to consider not just the idiot that gets caught in an avalanche, there is wider knock on effect that potentially effects others - patrol have to be dragged away from other responsibilities to search, potentially you tie up helicopters that could be helping others etc.
As someone that has spent a lot of time in n American resorts where it's the norm for lifts to be closed after a big storm until they can get the whole area it serves (including off-piste) safe I actually quite like the staggered opening. Means you can go take advantage of good snow elsewhere knowing you have a fresh area waiting for you in a day or two when it does open. If you know the resort well you generally get an idea of how and when things open (even better get yourself a friend in ski patrol who can text you or get a radio and listen in  )
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| ... I actually quite like the staggered opening. ... (even better get yourself a friend in ski patrol who can text you or get a radio and listen in ) |
Mostly the locals know how it works, but you can easily tune any Chinese radio as required.
I don't think there's any way to do it other than "staggered" which makes any kind of sense. I don't like or dislike it, but it's the only efficient way to do it.
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Two skiers killed today off piste in val disere
Today totally flat light snowing quite heavy and very windy at times avi risk 4
So most lifts connecting tignes and val closed
They gambled and lost
Lift company and pisteurs did everything right warnings re dangerous off piste etc
What can you do?
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| shep wrote: |
So our local (PdS) resort websites are announcing that all the upper lifts and any that provide links to the other resorts will be closed tomorrow. They say it's due to high winds, an avy-risk of 4/5, and the French doctors being on strike. This may well be a sensible decision, but it's the first time I remember seeing the Lift Co's restricting access openly publicised. They have been doing this on powder-days (both high and moderate avy-risk) for many years now (a lot more since covid), but it's always been by stealth. You get to the bottom station and it's either deserted with the barriers across, or there's a poor lifty half-heartedly trying to dig-out the load ramp turning you away mumbling something about too much snow or "en panne".
So ok it's a safety decision, since the recklessness you see on a dodgy powder-day as soon as the lifts open is chilling to witness for anyone with mountain awareness. But is it really the lift-co's job? Everyone in France skis off-piste at their own risk, and it's up to them to go or not go, to make their own risk assessment, and to make their own insurance arrangements. So there's no possibility that the lift-co can be held responsible for off-piste accidents; but what about the bad publicity, and the need to put the Pisteurs in harms way when a tragedy occurs ?
Skiers from the days of skinny-skis will remember when it was different - if they could open something they would. And the few skiers who had spent many weeks learning both the techniques and picking up mountain awareness, on the whole survived. Yes people still got caught, but in much smaller numbers, and pre 24hr rolling news were not really noticed. Now the feeding frenzy (stoked by the gnar movie industry and maybe fewer powder-days) sees thousands of inexperienced and under-educated fat-ski idiots and boarders going anywhere they see an untracked line, without a second thought .
I must say it rankles with me, but the world has moved on and become much more "managed". We certainly can't just count the bodies at the end of each powder day. It's a shame that we can't trust people to educate themselves and be responsible though, particularly if you just want to take the blue run over to the next valley for lunch. |
The reason to do this, is to protect the secours personnel and other skiers from extremely egocentric idiots.
How many links of secours personnel being wounded or even killed do you need before you understand it is not only about YOU?
Idem, examples about egomaniac triggered avalanches dropping on open slopes where they bury innocent skiers?
There is good reason why uplift must be closed in days with avi 4-5.
Not just because of the danger caused by the mountains.
But mostly, because there is a special kind of skiers who only care about themselves.
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Lift companies need to open the lifts, asap.
Even if it's a 5.
Surf the pow.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
Lift companies need to open the lifts, asap.
Even if it's a 5.
Surf the pow. |
That would be against the law in France, as I explained above.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Onnem wrote: |
Idem, examples about egomaniac triggered avalanches dropping on open slopes where they bury innocent skiers? |
That sounds like a lift-company fault to me. As a skier on an open piste one has a reasonable expectation that there is nothing above one that could land on top of one.
It is actually very like a theme park. Teams of inspectors, engineers and safety operatives working extremely hard to make sure that the punters can defy the laws of science, safely. Inspector says ‘no’, ride don’t go - be it rollercoaster or lift!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| Onnem wrote: |
Idem, examples about egomaniac triggered avalanches dropping on open slopes where they bury innocent skiers? |
That sounds like a lift-company fault to me. As a skier on an open piste one has a reasonable expectation that there is nothing above one that could land on top of one.
It is actually very like a theme park. Teams of inspectors, engineers and safety operatives working extremely hard to make sure that the punters can defy the laws of science, safely. Inspector says ‘no’, ride don’t go - be it rollercoaster or lift! |
Are you trolling? You can't be serious.
The super selfish idiot ignores signs the terrain is off limits, triggers an avalanche, which then hits the skiers on the open piste below.
This happens multiple times per season.
I posted just one example of this happening.
The problem is not the lift company failing.
The problem is egomaniacs ignoring fences and not using common sense.
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You know it makes sense.
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I’ve actually seen a couple of people do this but also take down ropes and change a closed sign to open in an effort to win the argument.
Didn’t work. Luckily nobody hurt
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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BFM now report three fatalities not two
Attitude re opening lifts avi 5 stinks doesn’t it
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Onnem,
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There is good reason why uplift must be closed in days with avi 4-5.
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Huge numbers of lifts will typically be open on a risk 4 day
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The super selfish idiot ignores signs the terrain is off limits, triggers an avalanche, which then hits the skiers on the open piste below.
This happens multiple times per season.
I posted just one example of this happening.
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You did not post an example of this happening, in your example the avalanche didn't actually hit any skiers on the piste and I do not believe that skier triggered avalanches hit skiers on the piste multiple times per season, in fact I believe that it is vanishingly rare. Can you provide two examples of this happening in a given season?
I agree with @James_the_Last, that slope wasn't safe to open if a skier triggered avalanche could hit it
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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[quote="boarder2020"]
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I actually quite like the staggered opening. Means you can go take advantage of good snow elsewhere knowing you have a fresh area waiting for you in a day or two when it does open. |
That actually is a very good point. The drawback here is that it rarely stays cold enough for the powder to remain dry for the next day, it's usually transformed by the first afternoon. First world problem I guess 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The drawback here is that it rarely stays cold enough for the powder to remain dry for the next day, it's usually transformed by the first afternoon.
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Seems unlikely. If true, modern European skiing really does suck
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FAQ
