 Poster: A snowHead
|
| 8611 wrote: |
Uh oh.... Italian media now reporting that cctv shows the female proprietor leaving the premises with the nights takings after the fire began, not a great look will be chokey now for sure
Civil law system doesn't allow you ski pass an accident without offering assistance |
Have seen this in UK media too now. Lost for words.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Daft Punk wannabes?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Yeah its horrific. With a massive indulgence of tolerance you could say you're fleeing a bar not really thinking straight or at all and grab the till and get out, but the suggestion is she left by a side exit that her unfortunate patrons don't appear to have known about. She could have directed people to go that way too, and that's what any responsible business owner should have done, least not a business involving loads of teenagers and young people. But instead she prioritised cash, while literally scores of people died. Classic extractive petty business owner mentality.
I appreciate its a media scrum and maybe the coverage is unfair but it looks like they have deliberately targetted a very young market, have actively promoted a gimick to generate sales which they knew years ago was dangerous, probably skimped on fire resistence in their renovations and certainly narrowed the exit route, don't appear to have trained staff in fire evacuation at all and amid all this she grabs the till and not the teenagers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Just out of curiosity, were any of the staff amongst the fatalities, or did they use another exit.
Not suggesting they deliberately let the customers die. They may well have used a different exit when the bar closed, and being aware of it, their own natural reaction would be to use that in an emergency.
Better staff training might have saved more lives.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Didnt see it reported in the English media but did see in the European media that both the DJ and the door man had died trying to rescue people. Also, the bar manager is in a coma with very serious burns.
Not sure about the poor waitress who was up on the shoulders. Not really her fault tbh but it would be an awful burden to bear. Christ its so awful thinking about the amount of kids who didn't get out of there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Seven kids from my daughter's previous school in Lausanne sadly lost their lives in this, including one of her former classmates whose sister was also a victim.
My wife attended the funeral yesterday. How can their parents ever begin to cope with losing both of their kids in this tragedy.
Today is a national day of mourning in Switzerland. We'll be observing a minute's silence at work at 2pm, and church bells throughout the country will ring. There is also a memorial service for all the victims in Martigny this afternoon, attended by the President and representatives of all the countries whose children lost their lives
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Terrible! The effect this will have on just that one family is difficult to comprehend but also to consider this for multiple families and the links between them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
In Grindelwald and on the train at 1400 but the minute was observed.
@Whitters, we will never come close to understanding their pain, and for the rest of their lives sadly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
And, the owner of the bar has now been taken into custody - according to BBC news.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| 8611 wrote: |
Not sure about the poor waitress who was up on the shoulders. Not really her fault tbh but it would be an awful burden to bear. |
Guardian reporting she died.....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@valais2, I stayed in one of the chalets in the development to the right of the chairlift up Le Face, Bellevarde in VT, if you can picture it, the year after the chalet had been finished. There was smoke coming out of the top of the fireplace construction in the main, triple height room.
Went back the following year, and was on the lift, looked over, and the chalet had burnt to the ground.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
@joffy69, ...that's very salutary. We initially were pretty fed up with having to remove our fireplace after the adverse inspection. It only took me a short while to recognise that we needed to undertake full renovation. During the work we found that that stone fireplace and its natural rock support was poorly tied into the main structure, that there was an electrical conduit far too close to the thermal brickwork, and multiple sources of small leaks of hot gases. The inspectors were right, and it was imperative that the work was done.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Here I am, it's 3am UK time, and I had to get up and do something. Every night I wake up thinking of the fire. I don't think I am dreaming about it but it certainly comes to me time and time again.
We had two shocks over Christmas. Before New Year, we were first on the scene of a nasty road traffic accident. Narrow road up to Nax, and at the first switchbacks going up, a small Mitsubishi hatchback shot past us, weaving up the turns ahead - really fast. We followed the road left, then right, and immediately ahead I saw two cars jammed across the road. The youth driving the hatchback was out of his car and kicking it, while an elderly woman was distraught next to her small car. Both cars were totalled, with all airbags activated. The front offside of both cars had contacted, and were a mess of wheels torn off, everything bent and torn, and engine oil and gearbox oil flowing freely onto the road. In a moment we realised that there was a further person in the front of the woman's car, an elderly man with facial injuries, glass embedded in his forehead and in a terrible state of shock. We did all we could; ensuring the rescue services were coming, calming people, stopping traffic, tending to the guy.
All that stayed with me. A woman and man, driving down the hill, their lives fine, then not.
And then came New Year.
We knew people who had been affected by being at the scene of the fire. We didn't know any of the victims directly. But the Grom had been up there, and had stayed out of the crowded bars. Since then, we have not wanted to intrude on the grieving relatives or the emergency services, we stayed away from that part of Crans but were still questioned by journalists. Now back in England, I can't get either incident out of my head - it's that feeling of '...if only one thing had been different in each case, then both these things would not have happened....'. Right now, I think of how awful the experiences of the dead must have been, and how terrible the impact of the injuries will be on the survivors. We had a friend who was terribly burnt when he was young. He needed so many procedures as he grew.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sat 10-01-26 21:12; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
@valais2,
Be mindful of your own health.
In no way am I an expert, but I know PTSD can effect even those on the periphery of traumatic events.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
@valais2, 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
@valais2, given the experiences you have been through it would be strange - indeed worrying - if you were not feeling it. That is not a "disorder" - the term "PTSD" gets chucked around when it's not appropriate. It might be more disordered if you weren't thinking about those things at all. But it must all be painful and sad. Sympathies.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Origen wrote: |
| @valais2, given the experiences you have been through it would be strange - indeed worrying - if you were not feeling it. That is not a "disorder" - the term "PTSD" gets chucked around when it's not appropriate. It might be more disordered if you weren't thinking about those things at all. But it must all be painful and sad. Sympathies. |
Thanks indeed - wise words
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
@Origen, I think mozwold was merely suggesting that valais2 should try (insofar as that's possible...) to guard against becoming ill, not that he is ill.
@valais2, you are in my thoughts. This has had a surprising effect on me, considering how long ago it was that Crans held a place in my life, albeit an important one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
@KSH, ...there's quite a weight this year from Gaza, Ukraine, Sudan and other conflicts...I try never to forget that the figures - such as yesterday: '...one paramedic killed in a double-tap strike in Oreshnik...' - are describing individual lives. Keeping that perspective - which I feel is absolutely essential - makes the deaths in Crans keen in memory....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@valais2, indeed
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| valais2 wrote: |
| Here I am, it's 3am UK time, and I had to get up and do something. Every night I wake up thinking of the fire. I don't think I am dreaming about it but it certainly comes to me time and time again. |
I feel for you having been in a similar position in the past. Be kind to yourself. It's easy to say "I'm fine" but you aren't and won't be for a little while. If you accept that and that it will take time to recover, as for a physical injury, then it's easier to bear. Well, it was for me anyway. Actually, looking on the positive, if you weren't impacted by these events then that would be symptomatic of a rather damaged psyche.
Wishing you all the very best.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| KSH wrote: |
@Origen, I think mozwold was merely suggesting that valais2 should try (insofar as that's possible...) to guard against becoming ill, not that he is ill.
|
He's not ill, he's been hit by severe shock and is reacting in a completely normal way. Even medics and firefighters accustomed to such events are shown to be impacted.
I've seen people die right in front of me and I held up my brother as he struggled to breathe due to a ruptured diaphragm ... next to the body of my sister-in-law which was still in the car that they'd just crashed. I had the same symptoms as @valais2 for quite some while thereafter.
These are traumatic events; they recur and you, despite knowing it's pointless, go over and over how, with one minor change in circumstances, they might not have. It is not a weakness or an illness, it's an injury and it takes some time for recovery and, just as you wouldn't kick someone recovering from a broken leg, it's a good idea to think about what you say and write in order not to metaphorically do that to those impacted by these things.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Blackblade, I'm so sorry, truly dreadful circumstances. I don't think anyone is denying what you're saying about the impact of such events, are they?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
@Blackblade, ...goodness me, that's grim. Very grim. So sorry you and family went through that.
The boundaries of 'normal' emotional reaction to extreme events are interesting and important. When reactions decay into self-centredness, obsession or absence of thought for others I guess that's when we know we have crossed the boundary...
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
@valais2, indeed. And that's when it's usually time to seek (but, sadly, not always find) professional help and when, more for ease of reference than anything else, words like disorder or illness (apologies if I used that word too loosely) come into play.
It's difficult, though, to steer the correct path between pulling oneself together and deciding to seek help. I know that I for one don't always get this right.
Anyway, I do know that loads of people on here are rooting for you, if that's any help.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
That’s awful news. Fires in crowded bars at night are every resort worker’s nightmare.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
@KSH, ...indeed it is, and much appreciated.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
@valais2, I couldn't get it out of my head for a few nights after the event. This despite me only being in relative proximity and i have no connexion to the people involved or the local community. If I had those connections, I imagine it would be worse and its understandable its affecting those that do have links. All the best .
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| 8611 wrote: |
Didnt see it reported in the English media but did see in the European media that both the DJ and the door man had died trying to rescue people. Also, the bar manager is in a coma with very serious burns.
Not sure about the poor waitress who was up on the shoulders. Not really her fault tbh but it would be an awful burden to bear. Christ its so awful thinking about the amount of kids who didn't get out of there. |
She died.
Everyone should read this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| KSH wrote: |
| @Blackblade, I'm so sorry, truly dreadful circumstances. I don't think anyone is denying what you're saying about the impact of such events, are they? |
Thank you ... but it was a long time ago and I am over it now. I don't think anyone is denying the impact but I was reacting to the 'ill' statement; it's not 'ill' when you are injured by an event or events. Viewing it as an injury helped me and, I hope, might just provide some comfort to valais2 as he deals with what he's experienced.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| valais2 wrote: |
@Blackblade, ...goodness me, that's grim. Very grim. So sorry you and family went through that.
The boundaries of 'normal' emotional reaction to extreme events are interesting and important. When reactions decay into self-centredness, obsession or absence of thought for others I guess that's when we know we have crossed the boundary... |
Very true. I think focussing on others and their situation helps actually. However, as I said, be kind to yourself and give yourself time to recover without analysing it too much ...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
@Blackblade, I've already apologised for the use of the word 'ill'. It was loosely used to indicate a condition for which medical help might be sought, including PTSD, which was mentioned before.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| KSH wrote: |
| @Blackblade, I've already apologised for the use of the word 'ill'. It was loosely used to indicate a condition for which medical help might be sought, including PTSD, which was mentioned before. |
Hey, wasn't criticising you at all ... just making a point. No need to apologise at all ... we all have different perspectives and I just wanted to, hopefully gently but perhaps I was too strident, share mine.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| boris997 wrote: |
| That’s awful news. Fires in crowded bars at night are every resort worker’s nightmare. |
Indeed, though ski resort hotel fires might also cause some sleepless nights...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Blackblade, noted, thanks. It's more than understandable that you're sensitive to thoughtless wording like mine.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Blackblade wrote: |
| KSH wrote: |
| @Blackblade, I'm so sorry, truly dreadful circumstances. I don't think anyone is denying what you're saying about the impact of such events, are they? |
Thank you ... but it was a long time ago and I am over it now. I don't think anyone is denying the impact but I was reacting to the 'ill' statement; it's not 'ill' when you are injured by an event or events. Viewing it as an injury helped me and, I hope, might just provide some comfort to valais2 as he deals with what he's experienced. |
I think that's a good definition, seems much more accurate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
We were back in UK when the memorial service was held at Martigny, along with the minutes of silence and the local moments when firefighters met publicly. We would not have attended since we were not sufficiently close to anyone directly affected, and the service was full of those who were. The services I hope provided some solace and emotional support to the families and those those attending the fire.
We were less engaged with creation of a heart on the slopes and other events (see BBC) which we felt run the risk of grandstanding. Meanwhile is there anything to do personally? Not really - everything seems to be moving and moving fast. The very serious impacts of the fire continue to unfold, and they are important and deep: recognition of the long and difficult road to recovery of the survivors, all of whom appear to be in national centres of excellence for care; criminal proceedings for the owners of the 'lounge'; serious questions of the local Commune and its offices; actions in other Cantons (but not all) to review and implement regulations; and the established press is asking fundamental questions or whether the federal system and its culture is falling behind the requirements of the modern world....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
the risk of grandstanding
|
Mmm. Maybe it's just me and my uptight Britishness, but these "public outpourings of emotion" from people not directly affected bother me. I feel they are often self-indulgent. When my OH died suddenly the fantastic turnout at his funeral, at a natural burial ground, was wonderful, and appreciated. But I KNEW all those people and that was weeks later. The news got around our immediate neighbour hood pretty quickly - the two ambulances and a helicopter landing on the beach were a bit of a clue - and one lovely neighbour came down to see me the following hours. It was brave of him but I couldn't cope with it - asked one of the family to speak to him and thank him. If a whole lot of people had responsed to some Facebook notification of a "tribute", and brought bunches of flowers to leave outside the house, I'd have been freaked, to be honest.
When somebody died in the terraced streets where I grew up the protocol was that we closed our curtains and (as kids) weren't allowed to play in the street as we usually did. I think that "showed respect" but the (very recent) language of paying "tribute" to somebody who has died puzzles me. What value can there be in a "tribute" from somebody who doesn't know one thing about the person who has died?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
