 Poster: A snowHead
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| aklos wrote: |
| Because your beautiful highly moral theoretical concept no longer works on the overcrowded pistes full of undertrained amateurs that the industry pushes to have « winter fun» not bothering to add relevant training or safety layers? |
I'm struggling to understand why you think it doesn't work. Rule #2 requires you to adapt your speed to remain in control, taking into account factors such as "density of traffic". Therefore, on crowded pistes you need to slow down enough to remain in control, which by definition includes being able to obey rules #3 (not endangering those ahead) and #4 (overtaking). On crowded pistes I'll often stop at the top, then pick my way through very slowly when I see a gap.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| RickBoden wrote: |
My goodness this started off well because now degenerated into rather pointless bickering.
Having read this I can think of no better reason to invest time in upgrading your skiing ability and spend most of your time off-piste avoiding all of this. Other risks associated with skiing off piste do however apply.  |
What do you do when there’s insufficient snow for offpiste?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Who is to blame if the uphill skier overtakes the downhill skier and then brake checks to stop, causing a crash?
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@bezthespaniard, uphill skier..every skier should be able to stop/ take evasive action
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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OK, if we're locking in for the full argument.... I generally looked behind me, and uphill, before skiing across a slope and often hand signalled too. That's only sensible. But I would have been a fairly experienced skier on a slope which gave me no problem. If it's a wobbly class of 14 beginner kids below you, the sensible thing is to wait. Just like we must if driving behind a tractor on a winding country road. If the tractor driver pulls into a gateway and waves us on, that's nice. But it's not a requirement.
The suggestion that a driver cannot be expected to avoid driving into a vehicle "stopped in a spot where nobody could reasonably expect it" is nonsense, of course.
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@holidayloverxx, is he trying to say the downhill skier has now become the uphill skier? 
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@KSH, I think so
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| aklos wrote: |
| The current technology can already identify risk behavior patterns of specific individuals, associate it with the ski pass and submit for human review to proceed with soft (warning, temporary pass blockage, mandatory training) or hard enforcement (fine, permanent ban, court proceedings). Preventing many incidents before they happen. No need to be so frustrated. |
Not in any way that would be acceptable to the vast majority of people, with the serious privacy implications.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Does it make a difference if the downhill skier is wearing a helmet but the uphill one isn't?
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| bezthespaniard wrote: |
| Who is to blame if the uphill skier overtakes the downhill skier and then brake checks to stop, causing a crash? |
It is a good question. At what point does the uphill skier become the downhill skier?
I well recall somebody’s overtaking me on a cat track. He got most of the way past me, and then moved towards the steep edge. As if going through me. I fell over (rather than go down the steep edge) and took him with me. Cue his directing invective at me about how the downhill skier has the priority.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| KSH wrote: |
| @holidayloverxx, is he trying to say the downhill skier has now become the uphill skier? |
Imv, the uphill skier remains so until he has safely and completely passed the downhill one by a minimum of the length of his skis.
If he cuts across in less than the length of a ski, then he is still at fault for any collision/accident that ensues.
As for a class snaking across the piste (the instructor ought to leave a clear space at one side), it's not really difficult to ease off and time the passing safely.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I got a rollocking a couple of years ago from an instructor who objected to me passing between him and his student. The student was a good 10 yards behind him, traversing at walking pace across a very steep black run.
So far behind that it wasn't even obvious he was his student, and far enough that 2 others safely followed me through the gap.
Told him what I thought.
In reality, I don't think his student was ready for that particular run, and should have been on the adjacent one, which was wider and slightly less steep, or even the red alternative.
For those who know it, it was the new black run down to St Vigilo.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Yoda, Ski patrol stopped in a dumb spot over the blond crest and not looking like they were attending to someone. Skiier should have slowed down before the crest as normal and easily avoidable accident. They probably had a better view as looks like the go-pro is attached to their chest. I have been in this situation many times with boarders sitting down over the crest and always slow down no matter how tempting it is to get some air.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Ozboy wrote: |
| @Yoda, Ski patrol stopped in a dumb spot over the blond crest and not looking like they were attending to someone. Skiier should have slowed down before the crest as normal and easily avoidable accident. They probably had a better view as looks like the go-pro is attached to their chest. I have been in this situation many times with boarders sitting down over the crest and always slow down no matter how tempting it is to get some air. |
It's a deepfake AI video. Although very convincing.
Somehow both his skis go under/through the snowmobile track at speed and part of his legs must have hit the heavy snowmobile plus possibly one of the patrollers then does multiple tumbles through soft snow....
...yet both his skis magically stay on in one piece and his leg hasn't snapped in two.
Also no sign of a panic hockey stop attempt, just casually continuing smooth turns into the snowmobile.
Low quality, pixelated video with artifacting. And the physics of the crash and tumble make absolutely no sense.
Using an AI video to try to convince us that we need to use AI to police the slopes with some unspecified AI technology is certainly interesting.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ManiaMuse wrote: |
Somehow both his skis go under/through the snowmobile track at speed and part of his legs must have hit the heavy snowmobile plus possibly one of the patrollers then does multiple tumbles through soft snow....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| richb67 wrote: |
| looks like a troll post, 1st message is about a topic guaranteed to get discussion going |
I havent commented on the thread until now, but I think you might be on the money.
The posting style is reminiscent of someone else on here tbh............
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think there’s a stage in a skier’s life when they realise that when they were starting out they were distinctly short on control. There certainly was for me and I can think back to a couple of occasions with some shame.
It’s utterly obvious that if you’re driving a car you shouldn’t overtake unless it’s safe. It’s less obvious, for some reason, on skis, and I wonder why. Is it because everybody is going in the same direction and therefore it feels as though it should be as easy to overtake as a motorway? And the problem is that on a motorway it’s reasonably regulated and the slow are on the left (or right) and the fast are on the right (or left) therefore everybody behaves in an expected manner. And also acceleration is much easier and faster on skis than in a car - in a car you have to put your foot down; on skis you just let go.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| GreenDay wrote: |
| richb67 wrote: |
| looks like a troll post, 1st message is about a topic guaranteed to get discussion going |
I havent commented on the thread until now, but I think you might be on the money.
The posting style is reminiscent of someone else on here tbh............ |
I agree as it’s a conversation that will keep going around in circle, but what is their agenda of doing this on snowheads?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Ozboy wrote: |
| GreenDay wrote: |
| richb67 wrote: |
| looks like a troll post, 1st message is about a topic guaranteed to get discussion going |
I havent commented on the thread until now, but I think you might be on the money.
The posting style is reminiscent of someone else on here tbh............ |
I agree as it’s a conversation that will keep going around in circle, but what is their agenda of doing this on snowheads? |
Some people seem to like having the rest of us "on strings".
I can be an argumentative sod, but have never understood people who start something like this, then double down when challenged. Its odd behaviour.
Think they are the WWW equivalent of wee boys torturing ants with a magnifying glass.
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@GreenDay, I think your right, at one point I was sure I heard a Dutch accent as I read it.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| And the problem is that on a motorway it’s reasonably regulated and the slow are on the left (or right) |
I generally find that the slow are just sitting in the middle lane, totally oblivious of what's happening around them.
Meanwhile, if the OP could kindly tell us where they're heading for their next trip, location and dates.....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wasn’t there a very similar thread/argument about a year or so ago. Pointless bashing on about the same issue with the OP clearly only interested in some sort of confirmation bias from anyone that remotely leaned in the same direction. Everyone else was just point blankly argued with.
FWIW, I think the FIS rules are pretty clear. It’s the teaching of them and reminding skiers of them that seems to be too often overlooked.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@ManiaMuse, plus no one moves to react, no skis placed in a cross, no one else about...there's a lot which doesn't really stand up to scrutiny
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Jäger wrote: |
FWIW, I think the FIS rules are pretty clear. It’s the teaching of them and reminding skiers of them that seems to be too often overlooked. |
I worry that this is true. When I started there weren’t the FIS rules about but the ski instructors taught beginners behaviours and checks that were pretty close. I wonder if they do this with beginners these days.
But there will always be the usual self-entitled inconsiderate people who think they don’t apply to them.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| aklos wrote: |
| The current technology can already identify risk behavior patterns of specific individuals, associate it with the ski pass and submit for human review to proceed with soft (warning, temporary pass blockage, mandatory training) or hard enforcement (fine, permanent ban, court proceedings). Preventing many incidents before they happen. No need to be so frustrated. |
Not in any way that would be acceptable to the vast majority of people, with the serious privacy implications. |
Vast majority of people would never accept speed control cameras etc... When the number of accidents increase and the financial balance shifts, governments step in and people have to comply whatever their preferences are.
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You know it makes sense.
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"And we’re basically at the point where tech can handle the real dangers. Cameras + AI can easily control speed, flag reckless skiers and link them to their ski pass ID for enforcement. So having a rule that dumps all responsibility on uphill skiers, like they’re supposed to see the future, just isn’t justified anymore. "
Are we? some are, however it is our duty just like on the road, we watch downhill, and ski accordingly, yes there may be the odd surprise, but in general just don't ski too close to the skier in front when over taking, don't ski past your ability to turn on a tuppence, and watch where you're going. IMO the downhill skier is usually in the right.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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In the main the slopes are pretty well self policed by the slope users. Irresponsible behaviour will get called out by others on the hill.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| James the Last wrote: |
It’s utterly obvious that if you’re driving a car you shouldn’t overtake unless it’s safe. |
Saying "you shouldn’t overtake unless it’s safe" only makes sense in road traffic because the environment is structured and predictable. A typical blue piste is not. In road terms, a busy blue piste would look like this:
- pedestrians crossing anywhere, at any time, without warning (slow carvers)
- pedestrians stopping on the road at any time
- cars entering from side roads with no stop signs, no yield, no lights
- vehicles constantly changing direction without signalling or checking mirrors
- some cars driving 60 km/h (which is legal), others suddenly stopping or carving across lanes
- some vehicles overspeeding up to 120 km/h, with no speed control or enforcement
In these settings, your phrase "only overtake when it’s safe" becomes meaningless, because safety cannot be reliably assessed. It works on the roads because of many special adjustments done to make the situation predictable. Contrary to what is happening on the pistes.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@aklos, “a blue piste is not predictable”
I absolutely agree. And this is my point. On a motorway a motorist has no god-given right to overtake. They only do so when obviously safe, and within the rules. And the traffic flow is fairly structured with slow on the left etc.
Similarly on a piste a skier has no god-given right to overtake. As the traffic is somewhat haphazard, “safe” has a much higher burden than when on the roads.
Basically, if you’re stuck behind a group of learners you’ve got to stay there on piste, just as you would on a road.
But why is it so hard to get this point across to skiers? What is it about the piste environment that makes them ski differently to how they drive? I put my views above. You can probably answer better than I can!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| James the Last wrote: |
But why is it so hard to get this point across to skiers? What is it about the piste environment that makes them ski differently to how they drive? |
Not driven very much, have you?  I see some pretty poor driving pretty much every time I'm on the roads, and just like the skiing, most of the time they get away with it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| aklos wrote: |
[
In these settings, your phrase "only overtake when it’s safe" becomes meaningless, because safety cannot be reliably assessed.. |
But it can. You’ve just assessed very clearly that it’s not safe to overtake and explained it to the entire internet as well.
You have to wait until it is safe. You might drive twenty miles along a country road before overtaking. Why is the piste different?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Right, to me there are two connected things - the current rules rely on 'foreseeable/predictable situation" which does not always work on the pistes, especially as they become more and more overcrowded.
Which, in turn, 1) makes the absolute interpretation of these rules impossible (and courts agree with that) and 2) calls for better measures to make the situation more predictable (which will obviously meet backlash from both skiers and resorts).
I am not sure about the skiers self-regulation concept that your mentioned. It only works in fairly specific and well controlled areas. If we remove driver permits, road signs, traffic lights, speed control and enforcement from the roads, it will not become self regulated but rather turn into a dangerous mess.
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| aklos wrote: |
Right, to me there are two connected things - the current rules rely on 'foreseeable/predictable situation" which does not always work on the pistes, especially as they become more and more overcrowded.
Which, in turn, 1) makes the absolute interpretation of these rules impossible (and courts agree with that) and 2) calls for better measures to make the situation more predictable (which will obviously meet backlash from both skiers and resorts).
I am not sure about the skiers self-regulation concept that your mentioned. It only works in fairly specific and well controlled areas. If we remove driver permits, road signs, traffic lights, speed control and enforcement from the roads, it will not become self regulated but rather turn into a dangerous mess. |
No they dont.
As you posted earlier, skiing can have any number of variables............hence it is the uphill skiers responsibility to assess and determine their line / action / speed.
Also, its been the correct way to ski since I was taught at Glenshee / Hillend as a kid and nobody talked about FIS rules - it was and is simply common sense, like looking uphill before you set off, and not stopping just over a blind brow.
None of this is difficult to comprehend.
Also, stop with the "driving" comparisons.
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| aklos wrote: |
In road traffic, you are not required to yield to unpredictable moves, because it’s physically impossible to anticipate every sudden action. |
You presumably don't realise that cars have mirrors and skiers don't.
Seriously, the fishing expedition with the first post scored 2/10 and you did get a few bites. But the follow ups have been very weak and you've really spoiled all the good work, so overall 0/10
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 5-01-26 12:23; edited 1 time in total
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[quote="GreenDay"]
| aklos wrote: |
None of this is difficult to comprehend. Also, stop with the "driving" comparisons. |
You need to learn how human behaviour and risk actually work, and whether that past norm that you are trying to assert through a common sense notion is operationally realistic in today's conditions. In safety work, the more uncontrolled variables you add, the less you can reasonably expect one participant to absorb all the risk. That is why responsibility is distributed and cannot be relying on individual vigilance alone.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| GreenDay wrote: |
Also, stop with the "driving" comparisons. |
Given that they apparently don't actually ski it's probably the only way they can think of it, and why so much of what they write is so far wide of the mark.
Anyway this troll exercise will continue just as long as anyone keeps trying to make sensible replies to it
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| eblunt wrote: |
| But the follow ups have been very weak and you've really spoiled all the good work, so overall 0/10 |
Not everyone is at school or in a desperate need for teacher's approval here. If you have something relevant to contribute, do it.
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FAQ
