 Poster: A snowHead
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The trouble with any of this things is that if you are not strict about it and let things slide a little - it soon becomes a torrent and suddenly discipline goes completely out of the window.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| j b wrote: |
To be honest I personally am with those who want more of the decision-making delegated to the individual school rather than those wanting a blanket approach at Council level. In practice that means the rules are the same, but with absences needing parents to show that it is unavoidable (e.g. diagnosed illness) or has a benefit equivalent to attendance (which might include skiiing depending on context, e.g. previous absence record and whether it is an examination year). |
Agree 100%
| hammerite wrote: |
If you do base it on graded attainment, how do you handle the hardworking child with a good attendance record who finds learning difficult so never gets a good grade?
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A child have learning difficulty may NEED the additional days spend in class more than he needs the ski holiday. Whilst a student who's ahead of the class are much less affected by the missed days in class and benefit more from outside of classroom learning.
The fundamental problem I see in your argument is you seem to view ski holiday as a reward of some sort, to be "given out" to student who tried hard, regardless of success. I and many others consider ski holiday as additional education venue which will benefit student who are already AHEAD in classroom learning more than additional days in class.
Would schools ever dreamt of imposing a "fine" to student who miss class for regional athletic competition? How about if a kid is missing a day of school to attend the national Math Olympic? I strongly suspect not! The difference? 1) school organized vs parent organized; 2) academic related (Math Olympic but not swim meet)
| Quote: |
| Lots of talk on here about schools doing this or that. The current approach is that schools get given a reason by parents for absence. The school then determines whether it’s classed as authorised or unauthorised based on a reasonably defined criteria (the criteria is shared with parents). The school then passes that information onto the borough council. The council then determines whether they’ll issue a fine or not. Schools generally don’t get involved beyond that. |
If that being the case, only family who took their kids out "unauthorised" is subject to fines, if at all.
So perhaps this (fines) is a far less common practice as some folks make it out to be?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The original article in the opening post shows how common it is and where.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Orange200 wrote: |
| The original article in the opening post shows how common it is and where. |
Does it?
There're some numbers on what percentage were "unauthorized" and how many got fined. But I can't tell what percentage of the overall school age kids were taken out of school during term time.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| abc wrote: |
| Orange200 wrote: |
| The original article in the opening post shows how common it is and where. |
Does it?
There're some numbers on what percentage were "unauthorized" and how many got fined. But I can't tell what percentage of the overall school age kids were taken out of school during term time. |
https://department-for-education.shinyapps.io/pupil-attendance-in-schools/
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@abc, you’re making loads of unnecessary points here. Schools generally have a criteria for absences and whether they’re authorised or unauthorised (so you are aware the two scenarios you mention will nearly always be authorised). Parents are aware of the criteria. Schools don’t issue fines. Local authorities do. Teachers and headteachers don’t get massively involved in the process.
I’m not suggesting kids should have a ski holiday for working hard or for attainment purposes. It’s you who made the suggestions earlier based on attainment. Why should teachers or headteachers waste time in determining who meets certain attainment/grades to go on a ski holiday? We tend not to grade work left, right and centre in the U.K. particularly not for pupils below Y10 therefore any judgement call takes time away from our job. Our job is to educate and to provide the best chances for our children. Our job isn’t to determine who should be allowed to go on a ski holiday or not.
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Head teachers are involved as they have to decide if each request is authorised or not. If they decide everything is authorised then the LEA will never be told and thus consider fines.
There is variation on both what one head thinks is OK and also variation between LEA on whether they should fine people (shown by the face some have not issued a single fine)
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@Blackblade, I’m not arguing against myself. The teacher/headteacher doesn’t even need to decide or get involved in whether an absence is authorised or unauthorised. Parents provide a reason for the absence and someone in the admin team, who usually knows the criteria without even checking, decides if it’s authorised or unauthorised. Teachers and headteachers don’t need to get involved in this day to day.*
It leaves teachers and headteachers to concentrate on providing an education and not spending time considering ski holidays for individual pupils.
*Clearly, headteachers/teachers do get involved in absences where there’s a safeguarding or any other more serious concern.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Rob_Quads, see above.
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At all three schools ours have attended it is not the admin staff deciding it’s the head for every case that’s reported to the LEA
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| hammerite wrote: |
| @abc, you’re making loads of unnecessary points here. Schools generally have a criteria for absences and whether they’re authorised or unauthorised (so you are aware the two scenarios you mention will nearly always be authorised). Parents are aware of the criteria. |
If so, then no arguments.
Except:
| Quote: |
| I’m not suggesting kids should have a ski holiday for working hard or for attainment purposes. It’s you who made the suggestions earlier based on attainment. Why should teachers or headteachers waste time in determining who meets certain attainment/grades to go on a ski holiday? We tend not to grade work left, right and centre in the U.K. particularly not for pupils below Y10 therefore any judgement call takes time away from our job. Our job is to educate and to provide the best chances for our children. Our job isn’t to determine who should be allowed to go on a ski holiday or not. |
What exactly do you mean by "work left"?
"Attainment" would implied schoolwork that's already done by the student and therefore already "graded". It's also reasonable to accept that work done in past is a decent indicator of future work ("work left"?).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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He is saying "left, right and centre" as a metaphor for "all over the place".
As in: The UK doesn't grade work on a continuous basis across the year in the way that the USA might. My primary age kids in a British curriculum school are just about to have their one formal set assessment for the year (I think it is called the GL / Cat4....could be wrong though)
On the other hand I would expect primary teachers, due to the time they spend on a daily basis with the kids, to be able to give a response about a specific child pretty off the cuff (a simple yes or no email) without needing a grade. Obviously this changes in secondary.
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@abc, yes, as @afterski says its just a phrase used.
@afterski, I teach in primary and yes, I can pretty much answer that question off the cuff. However, the problem comes when you say yes to one child and no to another. Then parents ask for the criteria used to decide. We can't just say, "We decide off the cuff based on our feeling." It would lead to all sorts of questions about decision making and favouritism etc... Also, as you say, it becomes much more challenging for secondary due to the number of different teachers they have.
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You know it makes sense.
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There’s a lot of comments comparing skiing trips to sporting competitions, but I would argue that this isn’t a fair comparison for two reasons, the first, I’m not convinced that many sports competitions clash with school attendance, and the second, if they do, they would be max one day, not a whole week. As a schoolchild I ran xc for my county on a number of occasions but that was always at the weekend, and I have no recollection of any other pupils missing school to do sporting competitions. Maybe we just weren’t a sporty lot but I don’t believe that many children are frequently missing school for sport. For reference I was at secondary school in the 2000s.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rambotion wrote: |
| There’s a lot of comments comparing skiing trips to sporting competitions, but I would argue that this isn’t a fair comparison for two reasons, the first, I’m not convinced that many sports competitions clash with school attendance, and the second, if they do, they would be max one day, not a whole week. As a schoolchild I ran xc for my county on a number of occasions but that was always at the weekend, and I have no recollection of any other pupils missing school to do sporting competitions. Maybe we just weren’t a sporty lot but I don’t believe that many children are frequently missing school for sport. For reference I was at secondary school in the 2000s. |
My son combined both into one - skiing trips that were sporting competitions 
When he was competing, trips would generally be a good chunk of a week. Schools seem a bit more relaxed about it here so no issues (and he was at a small private school so they could be a bit more flexible), just made sure he was all up to date on assignments and up to speed with work.
Now he's back in state school, they seem even less bothered. He has played a few international hockey tournaments which required a week or 2 off - again, no major drama. It is mostly me pushing to make sure he is not missing anything.
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Poster: A snowHead
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One example of a sporting competition is the British Interschool Ski Challenge. It was held during term time on a Monday and Tuesday, children from a mix of private and state schools do it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| afterski wrote: |
He is saying "left, right and centre" as a metaphor for "all over the place".
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Thanks for the clarification. Reading from a phone can sometimes left me with half the full picture. My apology.
| rambotion wrote: |
| There’s a lot of comments comparing skiing trips to sporting competitions, but I would argue that this isn’t a fair comparison for two reasons, the first, I’m not convinced that many sports competitions clash with school attendance, and the second, if they do, they would be max one day, not a whole week. |
I think it depends on specific sports. Skiing for example, if a kid is competing, had to be away. So, it would be more than just a day.
That said, I would be exaggerating if what my "many days" were interpreted as more than 5. It was at most a week, more often just 2-3 days, though it may happen more than once a term. Moreover, it happened just about every year, if not every term. So yes, it was significant enough to impact schoolwork IF the student doesn't do something to make up the missed lessons.
I actually think missing schools for sport early on helped me to understand the impact and motivated me to make up the difference.
Still, some students were just better at school than others. Once, my old man asked for permission to take me out of school for 3 days to go on a work trip with him (to a resort). The request was denied. So he decided to make me "sick" for those days. I was a bit baffled at his lying to my teachers. It turned out, he was taking me to a real world geometry lesson (Dad was a civil engineer). I got to play with all sorts of surveying equipment, with explanation of how they connect to geometry lessons I was having at school. He probably should have explained his aim of the trip better. But he just didn't think he needed a "valid" reason, as I was far ahead of the class at that point.
I suspect other parents in other profession may have similar advantages they could have exposed their sons/daughters, which would have benefit the youngster more than a day in the classroom. On the other side of the coin, if a parent feels strong enough to take the kid out of school despite the kid in danger of falling behind, I wonder if a little bit of fine would change their mind.
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FAQ
