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The future for skiing?

 Poster: A snowHead
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Assuming skiing even survives global warming for much longer, is skiing going to go the same way and be only for the mega-rich?

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/mar/02/wentworth-golf-club-reignwood-yan-bin

You could see that as being a pretty attractive with the increasing wealth of the uber-wealthy. Into skiing, got a billion or 2 knocking about, why not buy a ski resort for you and a few of your uber-rich friends?


Though I'd have considered myself reasonably well-off (relatively) once upon a time, we certainly feel we are not in the ski resort target market - and indeed Vail would seem to confirm that. If you look at their corporate presentations their target market is definitely high-end

Of course skiing has always been to some extent a rich-persons sport, but the question is how rich?
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@stuarth, There is the Yellowstone Club already.
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@rjs,

I guess my question is were we in a blip of semi-affordable (to the moderately well off at least) skiing which is now disappearing with the likes of Vail?
If you read there investor presentation, what they are doing makes a lot of sense from a business perspective.
And is the eventual logical but much more extreme progression that it all end up like the Wentworth/Yellowstone club example? Probably not, but wouldn't discount it - the golf club over the road from me has joining fees of $45000 and it's probably not the most exclusive around here Shocked
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But will the actions of the new owner of the Wentworth club have any bearing on the thousands of public and moderately-priced private golf clubs around the country? Difficult to see them all going for a small, extremely rich customer base. I'd say the same with skiing. There might be room for a small number of resorts which target the super wealthy, but I don't think there's room for all of them to go up market.
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The situation in the Alps is more like different people own a green or a tee of a golf course so it would be harder for a rich investor to buy a whole ski resort. If only a few really high resorts were able to operate at some point in the future due to climate change then it could be possible for those resorts to get gradually bought up over time.
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I read that when published, and thought more about the "real estate" development angle, which is key to recent ski developments at least.

Sundance already exists of course. Wiegele had plans for a private resort but didn't go with it.
A few resorts are owned by rich people still, and one or two own some of the smaller heliski operators.

My personal view is that the model isn't really the same as the golf club because the ski resort only works
for a very narrow period of time. Plus living in Virginia Water is possibly more attractive to the potential
client base than living in your average ski resort area. Even so, one or two billionaires dabbling in golf
is unlikely to affect the local council-owned golf course much.
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@rob@rar,

Yeah, I think that might be right - but there are a lot of golf course (in NA at least) that definitely have steep joining/membership fees. I should add that the public course that is just over the road from me the other way isn't too shabby! https://golfnorthlands.com/

Is this a better business model for ski resorts? It would seem so as there is only so much money you can make on lift passes, so to make more you need to get people spending more, and able to travel more to justify your international season passes (again in themselves an attractive business model) - ie with higher discretionary income. Perhaps this really only applies to the North America market where the mountains tend to own or have stakes in everything - but I'm sure the Vails of the world have their eye on Europe as it is a bigger market.

Going to the extreme again... consider if you do have a few billion to invest and you want to attract the uber wealthy market investors to pay your debenture, it's not going to be the low-profile small resort you buy and make exclusive, it would be the Whistler-Blackcomb, St Anton, Verbier, Val D'Isere type places. It would most definitely suck to not be able to ski these places.


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 4-03-21 19:00; edited 1 time in total
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@stuarth, IIRC there's a private village at Northstar (California) with its own gondola to access the mountain. I'm not sure if it also gets you membership of the country club with its members-only on-mountain restaurants, or whether that is extra. Either way, if you can afford a lodge in the VIP village, you can probably get into the country club.

Seems like a more workable angle from a ski perspective - high end accommodation with private/priority access. Maybe we've all been overlooking the potential of the cheap end of Les Deux Alpes (can't remember what it's called, just that it has it's "own" chair onto the mountain Happy
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Quote:

semi-affordable (to the moderately well off at least) skiing which is now disappearing with the likes of Vail?


An epic season pass that gets you unlimited skiing at Vail (and a bunch more resorts) is £717. Much cheaper than some of the big European resorts and you get access to many more places. If anything Vail has made skiing cheaper to those serious skiers looking to do plenty of days (not hard as Breck and Whistler are open over 5 months most seasons).

For those just looking for a few cheap days skiing of course Vail doesn't make sense - there are much cheaper options to be had close by though. Loveland full price day ticket is about £65 but there are deals available, which can bring down the cost.

I am amazed by how much some people on here spend on ski trips. While it's certainly not a cheap sport, it doesn't have to be as expensive as some make out. I can do a 3 month trip to British Columbia from UK including everything (flights, accomodation, lift, pass, food, insurance, transfers etc.) for under £3k (extra months would be about£400 each). Not cheap, but not out the reach of normal people either. If you really want to ski you an make it happen, if you are more interested in nice restaurants and luxury accommodation it will cost a lot more.
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Like everything - it used to be known as the "mixed" economy.

I have little doubt that there is scope for a few rich/luvvy resorts, like certain cruise lines, but equally there will be an ordinary people's market because ther are not enough uber rich/luvvies.

May be there will be some resorts where you can "reserve" a chair or gondola so you do not have to travel with plebs like me. May be you will even be able to reserve a piste or itiinerary for a price BUT they will still need everyone else to keep the local economy turning.
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Quote:

I read that when published, and thought more about the "real estate" development angle, which is key to recent ski developments at least.


I think that's just the way it works in North America. Ski resorts are built primarily to sell real estate (rather than naturally developing from real villages as more common in Europe). Then you have a relationship between the two where real estate is sold to make money to upgrade ski area, which in turn creates more demand for new real estate.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
boarder2020 wrote:
Quote:

semi-affordable (to the moderately well off at least) skiing which is now disappearing with the likes of Vail?


An epic season pass that gets you unlimited skiing at Vail (and a bunch more resorts) is £717. Much cheaper than some of the big European resorts and you get access to many more places. If anything Vail has made skiing cheaper to those serious skiers looking to do plenty of days (not hard as Breck and Whistler are open over 5 months most seasons).

For those just looking for a few cheap days skiing of course Vail doesn't make sense - there are much cheaper options to be had close by though. Loveland full price day ticket is about £65 but there are deals available, which can bring down the cost.

I am amazed by how much some people on here spend on ski trips. While it's certainly not a cheap sport, it doesn't have to be as expensive as some make out. I can do a 3 month trip to British Columbia from UK including everything (flights, accomodation, lift, pass, food, insurance, transfers etc.) for under £3k (extra months would be about£400 each). Not cheap, but not out the reach of normal people either. If you really want to ski you an make it happen, if you are more interested in nice restaurants and luxury accommodation it will cost a lot more.


Yes and no...
I think my WB pass (particularly as I now can get a student one! Razz ) is probably cheaper - it was when I had an Epic pass too. I don't think you can ski Whistler (or anywhere) for much less than I do per day since I have a cheap pass, ski quite a lot of days (normally - not so much this year!), take my own lunch, can drive there easy enough. However staying in Whistler is a _lot_ more expensive, the hotels got way more expensive and this even pushed down to the hostels, and many hotels made minimum 3 night stays. Food got a lot more expensive. My kids train in Whistler so we used to stay there to save driving, and have done for many years so I have a pretty good idea how this has changed.
If you stay in a hotel, it is more expensive, and this is likely because the hotels are targeting a different, more wealthy market that is travelling for weekend trips at short notice.

Is this the start of a slippery slope?
(and not the required for skiing good type of slippery slope! Razz )


Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 4-03-21 20:43; edited 2 times in total
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Sorry, I'm missing the connection between the Guardian article and Vail/skiing.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
boarder2020 wrote:
Quote:

I read that when published, and thought more about the "real estate" development angle, which is key to recent ski developments at least.


I think that's just the way it works in North America. Ski resorts are built primarily to sell real estate (rather than naturally developing from real villages as more common in Europe). Then you have a relationship between the two where real estate is sold to make money to upgrade ski area, which in turn creates more demand for new real estate.


That is mostly true, and the ownership thing makes a lot of difference.
That said, I'm not sure European resorts are immune - particularly if there are some areas that are going to be in a tight financial spot with COVID. The multi-area pass model like the Epic pass makes a lot of sense, and may be the only really long term way to run a viable ski resort business. If the same happens in Europe, then it changes the way people go skiing, less of the pick a week at one place and that's that, and more of the pick and choose where and when to go. In turn this would change how resort hotel and restaurants operate, again perhaps with a shift to a demographic that can make this work.
The there's the example like Northstar with private lifts, private restaurants,... this again is linked to property ownership, but doesn't have to be, just like when you pay your $45000 to join the golf club - you don't own anything, but you get exclusivity. No reason that would not be just as attractive in Europe as North America.


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 4-03-21 20:17; edited 1 time in total
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
abc wrote:
Sorry, I'm missing the connection between the Guardian article and Vail/skiing.


Nothing direct , just a trend - that is the extreme version where you market becomes extremely narrowed and you go for a small number of super-wealthy. Obviously Vail isn't there, but is aiming for a richer demographic which for sure has priced some people out
The vague connection is that many of us would consider ourselves relatively wealthy, partaking in a rich person sport, just like the pretty well off people at Wentworth (well maybe not quite as well off as those quite well of people!), who are then themselves priced out of the market


Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 4-03-21 20:16; edited 2 times in total
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 Poster: A snowHead
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Whistler accomodation has always been crazy though, too much demand and not enough beds. Even before epic it was a problem with stories in pique of people paying to rent a bathtub to sleep in! I did notice el furnies had put up their prices, used to be $5 a main course and now $8 which on the face of it seems like a huge increase, but £4.50 for pub food is probably better value than I'm getting anywhere in UK so for a ski resort still seems reasonable.
I don't think anybody is going to Whistler for affordability though - if you want that plenty of better options in BC. It's kind of like me saying everything in Zermatt is too expensive - yeah of course it's Switzerland should have went somewhere else.
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Well I'm hoping that admin's good value bashes will ensure I still have access to reasonably priced skiing for the rest of my skiing days! snowHead Toofy Grin
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Quote:

Sorry, I'm missing the connection between the Guardian article and Vail/skiing


Vail are the bad guys and responsible for everything wrong with the ski industry. Get with the program NehNeh Like you I don't really see the link, and generally think Vail get a pretty bad rep when I think they've actually made things better for skiers as a whole.

Quote:

it changes the way people go skiing, less of the pick a week at one place and that's that, and more of the pick and choose where and when to go.


I'm not sure how you are saying this is a bad thing? People that want to ski more get a much lower cost per day and have much more flexibility and choice. Most people would still go for a week at a time, they would maybe consider doing more weeks and maybe some extra weekends. I'm not going to criticise anything that gets skiers more time on snow!
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snowdave wrote:

Seems like a more workable angle from a ski perspective - high end accommodation with private/priority access. Maybe we've all been overlooking the potential of the cheap end of Les Deux Alpes (can't remember what it's called, just that it has it's "own" chair onto the mountain Happy


Really, where? As a resident here I've completely missed it rolling eyes
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boarder2020 wrote:
Quote:

Sorry, I'm missing the connection between the Guardian article and Vail/skiing


Vail are the bad guys and responsible for everything wrong with the ski industry. Get with the program NehNeh Like you I don't really see the link, and generally think Vail get a pretty bad rep when I think they've actually made things better for skiers as a whole.

Quote:

it changes the way people go skiing, less of the pick a week at one place and that's that, and more of the pick and choose where and when to go.


I'm not sure how you are saying this is a bad thing? People that want to ski more get a much lower cost per day and have much more flexibility and choice. Most people would still go for a week at a time, they would maybe consider doing more weeks and maybe some extra weekends. I'm not going to criticise anything that gets skiers more time on snow!


I don't think that's the case at all. In fact you could consider them the good guys because they have come up with a way of making the ski resort business viable, rather than them all going bust.
But undeniably a side-effect, and one that they do not try to hide, is the target market is for the high-end demographic.
You are right, in that places like Whistler have always been expensive - there are many times someone from Intrawest has tried to sell me an apartment, and I have skied with some very wealthy people indeed there long before Vail was anything but just a resort in Colorado that WB marketing had some overlay on their website to show how much smaller than WB it was!

Sorry, I think you missed my point. My only point was Vail (who I think you'd agree are pretty influential in the direction of skiing, hence why I use them as an example), themselves say they are targeting a high end demographic. Is this part of a wider trend that will eventually have a lot of us feeling like the people in the article - ie well off, but not well off enough? Will there be a trend towards private uber-rich resorts (I think the prevailing thought is there is not) This is a question, not a statement.
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Go back to the 1970s and skiing was probably a bit more egalitarian. In North America there were myriad amateur clubs. Even here in England there were hundreds of people from all sorts of backgrounds skiing on snowy weekends using inexpensive rope tows.

In Scotland and the Alps the sport was already accessible by then because of the involvement of schools and the enthusiasm of thousands of local households.

These were the boom years of the 1960s and 1970s when the burgeoning population started skiing and ski resorts developed rapidly.

Roll forward five decades and i wonder if covid might be a punctuation mark in the contraction of the sport ? Is it possible to imagine it being the point at which Baby boomers drop out of the sport en masse?

Coupled with climate change, heightened environmental awareness, increased cost, more hassle and fewer younger people, it might be a case of before covid and after.

I hope not.
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I'm afraid I don't sharing your sense of dread.

stuarth wrote:

Nothing direct , just a trend - that is the extreme version where you market becomes extremely narrowed and you go for a small number of super-wealthy. Obviously Vail isn't there, but is aiming for a richer demographic which for sure has priced some people out

If I were running a business, AND have a choice to choose which segment of the market my business should focus on (most businesses don't have the luxury of such choice), I would definitely focus on the ultra rich as one of my top choice!

Why? They're not subject to the wimp of economic cycle. So I have the most stable customer base, which could very well be the core of my revenue stream.

Look at airlines, they make their money from business travelers who pay many times of the thrifty tourist for the same seat on the plane! Without them, many planes simply can't get off the ground! (like right now)

Unlike the golf course in the article, airlines and ski resorts are not making the service exclusive to only the rich. In fact, they're discounting the excess capacity to the masses, making it semi-affordable to even the less than wealthy.

Quote:
The vague connection is that many of us would consider ourselves relatively wealthy, partaking in a rich person sport, just like the pretty well off people at Wentworth (well maybe not quite as well off as those quite well of people!), who are then themselves priced out of the market

I never felt that way about skiing. I started skiing on a little bump in the middle of flat land, on a graduate student's stipend. I never thought of it as a "rich person sport". It was a lot cheaper than car racing, motor boating, probably cheaper than drinking and smoking!rolling eyes

Yes, the cost of skiing has steadily creeped up over the decades. But my income has increased from my graduate student days too. So skiing hasn't entered my consciousness as a "luxury item". I understand it's not cheap. It's not very affordable to the lower income families. But I don't sense any hint of it being price out of my reach. And I'm not wealthy, (ok, maybe relative to some), just a solid upper-middle-class work-a-bee...

Now, it would be great if all business focus on me and people like me Laughing But in reality, I'm in the "economical danger zone". I can lose my job in a bad economy. I may get sick and other personal issues that takes me away from the slope. I don't even ski enough to justify buying a ski condo... Why would a ski resort focus on wringing any money out of a dry stone like me... Toofy Grin


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 4-03-21 22:17; edited 1 time in total
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Does anyone actually own the big high-profile Alpine ski resorts and be in a position to sell it to some billionaire's outfit?

Certainly a lot of them in Switzerland and France occupy the alps (the name is a clue) belonging to the villages below for whom they have been communal summer grazing for centuries. Operation of resorts is contracted to a ski lift company but they can (and sometimes are) replaced with another; I suspect the choice of contract depends a lot on the benefit to the villagers - employing them to operate lifts and instruct, enabling them to fill their hotels and self-catering properties with paying guests, to run profitable restaurants up the mountains and back in the villages, and so on. Turning into an exclusive resort for a much smaller number of the very rich would fail on many of those criteria.

Even if somewhere like Courcheval 1800 managed that (the likeliest place I have been) their reputation as a ski resort would be damaged if there wasn't the mutual access agreement with next door Meribel and Val Thorens which makes the Three Valleys such a draw.
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snowdave wrote:
@stuarth, IIRC there's a private village at Northstar (California) with its own gondola to access the mountain. I'm not sure if it also gets you membership of the country club with its members-only on-mountain restaurants, or whether that is extra. Either way, if you can afford a lodge in the VIP village, you can probably get into the country club.

Seems like a more workable angle from a ski perspective - high end accommodation with private/priority access. Maybe we've all been overlooking the potential of the cheap end of Les Deux Alpes (can't remember what it's called, just that it has it's "own" chair onto the mountain Happy


Martis Camp. The chair is public but walking off the snow at the bottom isn't or going to the bathroom for a leak. Same with Beaver Creek with private dining huts over the mountain. Yellowstone Club is weird - there are literally mansions almost on the public slopes at Big Sky and you look across from the other side and scratch your head as to which lifts you can go and which you can't.

There's definitely a weird thing going on in the US. The megapasses have "democratised" skiing for the dirtbag while at the same time the resorts go more and more upscale (or their own perception of what is upscale). You can see the snobbery at places like Deer Valley where many rich people have moved to the Park City area and chosen a resort on the basis of its plush lodges, fine dining, flattering unchallenging groomers and above all ban on snowboarding and now they have to share the slopes with wider SLC and travelling skiers who would have never bothered paying for a day ticket before. The result? Staff heard muttering that Ikon passholders have no class etc etc, presumably because they've never really seen freeride skis or stickers all over gear or duct tape before. I keep hearing that the private equity behind Alterra has eyes on something loftier than just replicating Vail so one can only assume its about monetising a wealthy lifestyle industry.

Yet the ski industry is littered with over ambitious real estate projects gone bad, con men and grifters. And bizarre ownership chains - Northstar was once owned by Purina petfood. I think the US has reason to fear a big Chinese player coming in and ruining a few places. But I think overall Vail and Alterra realise there is a balance to be struck. You can't operate without locals who you let ski and you can't keep the bills paid just when the 1%ers fly in for the weekend. You need the middle class families in their $50k SUVs and the college kids in their beat up Jettas to have a future industry. & yes the tourists who are happy to keep the bill under $1000 per week. as well as the Texans happy to drop $10k.
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@stuarth i guess I don't have a problem with Vail targeting the super rich - seems like sensible business!

Like I say I can do 3 months in BC for less than £3k. Have plenty of ski bum friends managing to scrape by and ski 100+ days per season. So I just don't buy skiing being some crazy luxury only the super rich can afford. Most of the 1 week skiers I know are limited more by time than money and I wouldn't describe them as wealthy.
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Since a lot of this touches on Ikon-type passes, here's a bit of news: My home hill, Crystal Mtn (an Alterra property), just sent me an email saying that next season they will be clamping down a bit on Ikon usage. This season, an Ikon Base Pass was also a Crystal Mtn seasons pass.....talk about a no-brainer for me! I'm in the money 3x this year and they've noticed: next year I'll only get 5 days at Crystal, not unlimited. It has been more crowded for sure. Probably a good move overall, and maybe for me, too. Might be less crowded on those 5 days.

I am interested in how all the ancillary methods of making money (food & beverage etc.) which were heavily invested in, and now sit empty, will affect the business case of ski area operation. The duct tape set that many of us were once members of is not the one that pays the bills. We all need Mom, Dad and the kids to come and have a cheeseburger on the weekends. I'll end with a whine: I can't wait for all those folks who should be in school or at work, but who are skiing at MY AREA midweek due to covid, to go back where they belong!!!
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
. I keep hearing that the private equity behind Alterra has eyes on something loftier than just replicating Vail so one can only assume its about monetising a wealthy lifestyle industry.

Yet the ski industry is littered with over ambitious real estate projects gone bad, con men and grifters. And bizarre ownership chains - Northstar was once owned by Purina petfood. I think the US has reason to fear a big Chinese player coming in and ruining a few places. But I think overall Vail and Alterra realise there is a balance to be struck. You can't operate without locals who you let ski and you can't keep the bills paid just when the 1%ers fly in for the weekend. You need the middle class families in their $50k SUVs and the college kids in their beat up Jettas to have a future industry. & yes the tourists who are happy to keep the bill under $1000 per week. as well as the Texans happy to drop $10k.


That put me in mind of this Grauniad article discussing the woes of the “well off” golfers being squeezed out of their cosy club by super-rich Chinese investor/owner
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/mar/02/wentworth-golf-club-reignwood-yan-bin
[edit] ah, I see I’ve gone full circle from OP’s post rolling eyes [end edit]
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Quote:

I am interested in how all the ancillary methods of making money (food & beverage etc.) which were heavily invested in, and now sit empty, will affect the business case of ski area operation.


On the flip side they will probably make a lot more in lift tickets.

Quote:

The duct tape set that many of us were once members of is not the one that pays the bills. We all need Mom, Dad and the kids to come and have a cheeseburger on the weekends.


Was once standing in a lift line behind two woman upset about how the new fancy hotel at the resort base was bringing in rich people and it was the wrong type of clientele for that resort. Was funny for two reasons. Firstly they were both wearing £500+ arcteryx jackets with heliski logos on, so not exactly poor. Secondly it's those rich people paying through the roof that subsidise all the ski bums cheap season passes. Besides the rich tourists that can't ski are not exactly a competition for the good lines.
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Well, for many Alpine resorts the big problem is low average occupancy: if they can get occupancy levels up outside of the school holiday weeks then things might look up. Most owners here are familiar with the «lits froid» concerns expressed by their local councils, operators and development agencies. They did a survey in our village a while ago and the average winter season occupancy rate was just 1 in 8 beds. That prompted the lift company to build a big new apartment complex at the bottom of the lift and retain ownership of most of it, and they now do big block-bookings to TOs, which is good for local businesses if a bit tiresome if we are there at the same time as 300 medical students from France turn up. And in the summer, they rent it out for an annual family holiday camp for European Hasidic Jews (we were uncertain at first but it's great fun, even if a bit incongruous to see the men in their hats up and around the mountain ...). Verbier has also gone big on eBikes, with charging points at the mountain cafés etc, which made for somewhat busier tracks. But if it keeps everything going ....
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I was watching a television programme about the building of a concert hall in Andermatt the other day. That's a European resort which is being completely transmogrified for the moneyed classes and its attraction in summer will be part of the picture.
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It will be interesting to see how things develop over the next few years.
The high altitude resorts have the longest seasons, but in Europe they tend tocbe purpose built and ugly - not for summer visitors.

The smart resorts invested in snow making/not lifts and have ridden climate change well.

The big change for industry will be the evolution from packages to the generation 'App'. Cheap short hauls with accomadation on Hotels.com, Booking.com and AirBnB.

I think the the mountains could capilatise on the Grey dollar a bit more. Those floating petri dish cruise ships are going to struggle to get customers in coming years
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Grinning wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
. I keep hearing that the private equity behind Alterra has eyes on something loftier than just replicating Vail so one can only assume its about monetising a wealthy lifestyle industry.

Yet the ski industry is littered with over ambitious real estate projects gone bad, con men and grifters. And bizarre ownership chains - Northstar was once owned by Purina petfood. I think the US has reason to fear a big Chinese player coming in and ruining a few places. But I think overall Vail and Alterra realise there is a balance to be struck. You can't operate without locals who you let ski and you can't keep the bills paid just when the 1%ers fly in for the weekend. You need the middle class families in their $50k SUVs and the college kids in their beat up Jettas to have a future industry. & yes the tourists who are happy to keep the bill under $1000 per week. as well as the Texans happy to drop $10k.


That put me in mind of this Grauniad article discussing the woes of the “well off” golfers being squeezed out of their cosy club by super-rich Chinese investor/owner
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/mar/02/wentworth-golf-club-reignwood-yan-bin
[edit] ah, I see I’ve gone full circle from OP’s post rolling eyes [end edit]


That was my point - the demographic that skis at thes US "top tier" resorts is already pretty wealthy. The type of people that don't blink at $30-40 per head for a self serve lunch or $5 for a hot choc ( guess CH is pretty much around these prices). But they are the working wealthy who probably still have to watch the overall bills rather than those for whom whether it's $30 or $300 or $1000 it's just a rounding error.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:

That was my point - the demographic that skis at thes US "top tier" resorts is already pretty wealthy. The type of people that don't blink at $30-40 per head for a self serve lunch or $5 for a hot choc ( guess CH is pretty much around these prices). But they are the working wealthy who probably still have to watch the overall bills rather than those for whom whether it's $30 or $300 or $1000 it's just a rounding error.

The OP was lamenting that very point. The demographic of "working wealthy", which he seem to be part of, being pushed aside by the truly wealthy.

Some of the snowheads quite likely fall into that demographic. But many others don't. Hence the mixed reception of the OP's initial post. Some of us just aren't too bothered by the lessor wealthy being push aside by the uber wealthy.
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abc wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:

That was my point - the demographic that skis at thes US "top tier" resorts is already pretty wealthy. The type of people that don't blink at $30-40 per head for a self serve lunch or $5 for a hot choc ( guess CH is pretty much around these prices). But they are the working wealthy who probably still have to watch the overall bills rather than those for whom whether it's $30 or $300 or $1000 it's just a rounding error.

The OP was lamenting that very point. The demographic of "working wealthy", which he seem to be part of, being pushed asi Sad de by the truly wealthy.

Some of the snowheads quite likely fall into that demographic. But many others don't. Hence the mixed reception of the OP's initial post. Some of us just aren't too bothered by the lessor wealthy being push aside by the uber wealthy.


Assumptions are dangerous things to make!
No lamenting here since being a student again means I get a student pass for WB, so skiing is really cheap for me! snowHead

Perhaps living near and being able to regularly make use of a big ski resort does possibly make you take a little more notice/be slightly bothered however? wink
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:

Perhaps living near and being able to regularly make use of a big ski resort does possibly make you take a little more notice/be slightly bothered however?

Maybe not a "big" ski resort. But I live near big money. I see that same reaction from some of the "wealthy but not uber wealthy" often enough.

But for the less than "wealthy", but just the well-to-do, being "pushed aside" by the wealthier is such a common occurrence it's hardly noticeable. wink
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China will probably become a cheap destination to fill the gap as other resorts head up market. I’m pretty sure there’s a massive amount of ski resort development happening there
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I don't think there is any lamenting going on. And for most people who take multiple ski trips per year or have a ski home vs those who have to work ski bum jobs they probably qualify somewhere on the spectrum as working wealthy. The question is do they/we end up getting priced out of places we love as more wealthy take over. I bet it's easily possible to spend $400-500 per night on a Whistler hotel room these days.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
I don't think there is any lamenting going on. And for most people who take multiple ski trips per year or have a ski home vs those who have to work ski bum jobs they probably qualify somewhere on the spectrum as working wealthy. The question is do they/we end up getting priced out of places we love as more wealthy take over. I bet it's easily possible to spend $400-500 per night on a Whistler hotel room these days.

It's easily possible to spend $500-800 per night on a Whistler hotel room on a Saturday of holiday weekend!

It's also "easily possible" to get a 2 bedroom suite for less than $300/night in the middle of January in the middle of the week.
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Quote:

China will probably become a cheap destination to fill the gap as other resorts head up market. I’m pretty sure there’s a massive amount of ski resort development happening there


From what I've seen China skiing is mostly artificial white ribbons. Lots of cheap options in central Asia and Caucasus.

I'm still not really sure Whistler (a place famed for having a massive lack of accomodation and being the most expensive resort in Canada) prices are proof skiing as a whole is becoming too expensive. I'm sure a hotel during school holidays in Zermatt is not cheap, but doesn't reflect the price on European skiing as a whole.

There are countless reasons for price increases - supply and demand, trying to recoup lost covid money, increased costs of running during covid etc. I'm yet to see any real evidence that ski resorts are actively trying to push aside those not rich enough (which would be easy to do by simply increasing lift pass costs).

Quote:

It's easily possible to spend $500-800 per night on a Whistler hotel room on a Saturday of holiday weekend!


A month's rent for those choosing to live at any resort town in BC other than Whistler or Banff!
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Quote:
A month's rent for those choosing to live at any resort town in BC other than Whistler or Banff!
Have they had a state boundary review? Banff was in Alberta when I was there wink
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