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Switzerland for domestic tourism only?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Langerzug wrote:
Jealousy, power trip, bullying....
Sorry, but this little-boy talk means nothing. Same as nonsensical Brexit rhetoric. Good luck with that.

Oh, and a slight hint: Swiss central government has just imposed a new rule: for skiresorts to open after December 22 they will need a special license. This license will be linked to regional hospital capacity...
May I suggest you boys to take your blinders off now?

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/switzerland-riles-alpine-neighbours-by-keeping-its-ski-resorts-open/46206176

Sigh. Why the angst? What's the beef? You think that it's 99% certain that Switzerland will be forced to comply with pressure from 'the EU' and shut their resorts. I think it's 5% likely they'll cave into French lobbying and 15% likely that Covid will cause shutdown. And that 24 of the EU states don't give a toss anyway. Only time will tell. What's this got to do with Brexit?

And no one is disagreeing that hospital capacity will be a determinant of Covid countermeasures. I think I already said that. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Personally, if I was the Swiss President, I'd be saying to M. Macron that I don't see why it's a Swiss problem that the French seem unable to stop their citizens from breaking the law and travelling into Switzerland to ski. And ask why the Swiss should decimate their winter industry because the French won't obey French law and the French state can't control the movement of it's own citizens. And why Swiss citizens should be denied a Swiss ski outing just because the French are in revolt.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Restaurants are really no go areas as the limit of 50 basically closes the restaurant
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@LaForet, sigh back...You are again talking about ‘Switzerland being forced’ and ‘saying to Macron’
Little-boys talk, again.

Maybe you missed it, but even Swiss newspapers are writing about “problematic Kantons finally moving” and “the passiveness of Swiss central government“
Oh, and another Swiss headline asks:”Is Switzerland a liberal freak show?”

Also hearing about e.g. Haute Nendaz having no plan whatsoever to cope with queues etcetera. Zero.

Appearantly the pressure from outside was necessary. And slowly becoming effective....
The Swiss hiding behind there mountains....its been going on for centuries.
But Anno 2020 you can’t deny (European) reality. And there is your link to Brexit.


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 6-12-20 17:21; edited 1 time in total
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Langerzug wrote:
@LaForet, sigh back...You are again talking about ‘Switzerland being forced’ and ‘saying to Macron’
Little-boys talk, again.

Maybe you missed it, but even Swiss newspapers are writing about “problematic Kantons finally moving” and “the passiveness of Swiss central government“
Oh, and another Swiss headline asks:”Is Switzerland a liberal freak show?”

Also hearing about e.g. Haute Nendaz having no plan whatsoever to cope with queues etcetera. Zero.

Appearantly the pressure from outside was necessary. And slowly becoming effective....
The Swiss hiding behind there mountains....its been going on for centuries.

Sigh because you just keep resorting to personal insults - 'little boys talk'? What's that about?

The title of the thread is about whether Switzerland's open resorts are closed to non-Swiss. You said they'll 99% likely to be closed completely because of pressure from 'the EU'. I agree that there's undoubted pressure from France, Italy and Germany, but I think it's 99% likely they'll be closed because internal limits for covid rates and healthcare capacity will be exceeded. Nothing to do with the EU, or even M. Macron. But it seems I'm a 'little boy' for saying that, which I find puzzling.


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sun 6-12-20 17:27; edited 1 time in total
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@LaForet, “Europe is jealous”, “Macron is bullying”, “Merkel is bullying”
Big evil Europe trying to take tiny Switzerland‘s toy (skiing)
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Langerzug wrote:
@LaForet, “Europe is jealous”, “Macron is bullying”, “Merkel is bullying”
Big evil Europe trying to take tiny Switzerland‘s toy (skiing)

I said none of those things. And now I'm even more puzzled about what you're trying to say.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sun 6-12-20 17:31; edited 1 time in total
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LaForet wrote:

I can certainly see the French President's conundrum. If he keeps French Alpine resorts shut, but starts to lift travel restrictions inside France (as I'm sure he's desperate to do) then loads of French skiers will just drive into Switzerland, have loads of fun, get the virus, and bring it back. Spending their euros in Verbier instead of Chamonix and expecting the French taxpayer to foot the bill for the healthcare fallout. If he keeps things shut down, the economic impact is months of unnecessary loss to the economy. And if he goes laissez-faire and opens everything up, he'll have instigated a Third Wave. A lose-lose-lose situation.

Why can't France close its border with Switzerland if they're so worry about importing virus from Switzerland?

Switzerland chose not to be part of EU. It's pretty clear they wanted to have control of their affairs. This maybe the instance they exercise that control. I can't see they would cave to pressures from France. But they're more likely to yield to internal pressure. If it looks like Covid is rampant, they may close ski lifts. But if not, can't see why they would forbid their own citizen from enjoying the winter. And if neighboring country can't stop their citizen from crossing the border, it's not the Swiss's problem...

On the other hand, if France has a much lower infection rate than Switzerland, I can see plenty of justification for Macron to close the border.

This is a perfect example of how to isolate a region (in this case a country) that has a different virus transmission trajectory.
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Yes you did

LaForet wrote:

Personally, if I was the Swiss President, I'd be saying to M. Macron that I don't see why it's a Swiss problem that the French seem unable to stop their citizens from breaking the law and travelling into Switzerland to ski. And ask why the Swiss should decimate their winter industry because the French won't obey French law and the French state can't control the movement of it's own citizens. And why Swiss citizens should be denied a Swiss ski outing just because the French are in revolt.
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Langerzug wrote:
Yes you did

LaForet wrote:

Personally, if I was the Swiss President, I'd be saying to M. Macron that I don't see why it's a Swiss problem that the French seem unable to stop their citizens from breaking the law and travelling into Switzerland to ski. And ask why the Swiss should decimate their winter industry because the French won't obey French law and the French state can't control the movement of it's own citizens. And why Swiss citizens should be denied a Swiss ski outing just because the French are in revolt.

? No, I didn't. Where is the '“Europe is jealous”, “Macron is bullying”, “Merkel is bullying”' that you claim I said? Even more puzzled. We seem to be talking at cross-purposes here. Time for a cup of tea and a scone for me ......
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LaForet wrote:
Langerzug wrote:
@LaForet, “Europe is jealous”, “Macron is bullying”, “Merkel is bullying”
Big evil Europe trying to take tiny Switzerland‘s toy (skiing)

I said none of those things. And now I'm even more puzzled about what you're trying to say.

LaForet, why do you bother?

He's confused on what may cause Switzerland to close its ski lifts. He lists all the reason why the Swiss may close, all internal to Switzerland. Then he attributes them all to pressure from France and Germany.

Does it matter to you he's confusing the two?
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@LaForet, just ignore @Langerzug. He’s an arrogant little tw@t who’s probably jealous that he can’t go skiing in his precious Lech and making himself look a fool by making grand statements about Switzerland caving into EU pressure, while the Swiss resorts are firmly open. When people point this out he starts abusing them. The ugliest type of loser...
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Not sure that these photos from Verbier are going to help the argument.

https://planetski.eu/2020/12/06/huge-queues-for-verbier-lift/

Muppets.
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There is a huge problem with Macron closing the border - the number of people who cross the border for work each day.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Back from my tea and scones (which were lovely fresh and warm with melted butter and home-made jam). OK, thanks, I understand now. I thought I was having a rational conversation but I realise that it was not the same on the other side.

I do appreciate a French person getting a bit riled, as I've said on other threads, because the French are in a no-win situation. I'm sure M.Macron desperately wants to lift some of the restrictions on internal movement, but not open-up their ski resorts. But if he does that, then lots of French will pile over to CH and all their euros get spent abroad at the cost of bringing back a ton of infections. Not good. If he opens up French ski resorts its 50:50 he'll induce a third wave of covid. Quite bad. And if he shuts down the borders and travel unnecessarily, he's making French people pay for the fact that Swiss resorts are open. Also bad. And I'm sure plenty of younger French skiers in adjacent areas will try to sneak into Switzerland anyway. Lots of border hassle. It would indeed be so much easier for him if all the Alpine nations just write the season off, but I I think it's looking unlikely at this stage.
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LaForet wrote:
I'm sure M.Macron desperately wants to lift some of the restrictions on internal movement, but not open-up their ski resorts. But if he does that, then lots of French will pile over to CH and all their euros get spent abroad at the cost of bringing back a ton of infections.

That's the part I don't quite understand.

Lifting restriction on travel is going to encourage virus spread, whether that travel is internal or cross border. Virus doesn't know a frenchman from a swiss.

France is a big country, Switzerland a tinny tiny one. So I don't understand how Macron can ease travel restriction within France, even with ski lifts closed, hope to achieve. Seems to me it would be more effective if he just let the ski lifts to open but hotels closed, so people would mostly ski locally. Rather than trying to persuade Switzerland to close its ski lifts.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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@abc Yes, I suppose that's an additional option that I hadn't considered.

But it may be that there's evidence that just opening resorts but not cafés and bars is almost as bad as opening everything. This would reflect the argument you get from café, bar and restaurant owners in the UK - that their being open, of itself, isn't a major contributory factor to the infection rate. It's hard to know as we don't have the data and range of experts to hand that governments do.
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LaForet wrote:
@abc Yes, I suppose that's an additional option that I hadn't considered.

But it may be that there's evidence that just opening resorts but not cafés and bars is almost as bad as opening everything. This would reflect the argument you get from café, bar and restaurant owners in the UK - that their being open, of itself, isn't a major contributory factor to the infection rate. It's hard to know as we don't have the data and range of experts to hand that governments do.


I'm sure we're going over old ground here...but with properly protected lifts, self-catering and no apres, I fail to see how outdoor skiing is any more contagious than any other outdoor non-contact sport?
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Dravot wrote:
LaForet wrote:
@abc Yes, I suppose that's an additional option that I hadn't considered.

But it may be that there's evidence that just opening resorts but not cafés and bars is almost as bad as opening everything. This would reflect the argument you get from café, bar and restaurant owners in the UK - that their being open, of itself, isn't a major contributory factor to the infection rate. It's hard to know as we don't have the data and range of experts to hand that governments do.


I'm sure we're going over old ground here...but with properly protected lifts, self-catering and no apres, I fail to see how outdoor skiing is any more contagious than any other outdoor non-contact sport?


While there are other sports with the same problem, distance travelled is the difference;

I have come across people travelling ~200 miles to ski a day in good powder (not needed for cycling or football or most other sports (basically mountain and costal sports need travel and participants will happily get up at 5am, arrive at ~8am (3 hrs at 60mph average - 180 miles) ski all day, go home at 4pm for a long powder day... I also expect it would be almost impossible to prevent people using friends for long weekends, at which point your car travel easily covers the whole of france.

Most other sports during lockdown are probably done locally so can't spread anywhere near as widely. (yes a kickabout in a park might spread it just as easily as skiing, but you then spread to people living within a few miles where shopping etc would likely spread it anyway, rather than to people living over a 200mile radius circle...)
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@LaForet, there're, as I can tell, 2 pretty significant contributing factors to virus transmission. Gathering of people and travel.

If people don't gather, they can't get infected. Skiing isn't really that much "gathering". So itself is safe.

But we know people do gather. Locals gather (in private when bars/restaurants were closed) and they spread virus AROUND the save region. So I'm not too sure it makes that big a difference if restaurants are close or not. Bars seems more problematic so probably should be closed.

Still, it takes long distance travelers to take the virus to a new region. Cut out the travel, the virus stays local and can be dealt with local level restrictions. Austria's approach of not allowing hotel booking for non-essential travel seems a good compromise.

So it seems to me, it's actually better to open the lifts in France, let the locals ski locally. And if they do gather and virus spread, Macron can lock down one region or another.
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Dravot wrote:
LaForet wrote:
@abc Yes, I suppose that's an additional option that I hadn't considered.

But it may be that there's evidence that just opening resorts but not cafés and bars is almost as bad as opening everything. This would reflect the argument you get from café, bar and restaurant owners in the UK - that their being open, of itself, isn't a major contributory factor to the infection rate. It's hard to know as we don't have the data and range of experts to hand that governments do.


I'm sure we're going over old ground here...but with properly protected lifts, self-catering and no apres, I fail to see how outdoor skiing is any more contagious than any other outdoor non-contact sport?


If you check out the photos in Chocksaways link above I think you'll find your answer
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Outdoor crowds do not spread Covid.

The featherlight, fatty RNA hates sun and wind.

Around ~95% of spread is coming from indoor crowds.

Hospitals, nursing homes, student dorms, religious gatherings, bars, clubs, etc.

Keep capacity at 50-75% and wear masks on lifts and all windows wideopen and blow a draft thru the trams and bubbles and yall good.
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Quote:
France is a big country, Switzerland a tinny tiny one. So I don't understand how Macron can ease travel restriction within France, even with ski lifts closed, hope to achieve.


Er because it’s not all about skiing! People have other stuff they want to be doing, dare I say some of it might even be more important wink
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peanuthead wrote:
Dravot wrote:
LaForet wrote:
@abc Yes, I suppose that's an additional option that I hadn't considered.

But it may be that there's evidence that just opening resorts but not cafés and bars is almost as bad as opening everything. This would reflect the argument you get from café, bar and restaurant owners in the UK - that their being open, of itself, isn't a major contributory factor to the infection rate. It's hard to know as we don't have the data and range of experts to hand that governments do.


I'm sure we're going over old ground here...but with properly protected lifts, self-catering and no apres, I fail to see how outdoor skiing is any more contagious than any other outdoor non-contact sport?


If you check out the photos in Chocksaways link above I think you'll find your answer


I was standing in that queue (still covid free fingers crossed!) and would still say it felt safer than the train / taxis I had to get recently. Everyone was masked up, the queueing areas were outdoors or well ventilated. Suspect the optics are worse than the reality.
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Whitegold wrote:
Outdoor crowds do not spread Covid.
Around ~95% of spread is coming from indoor crowds.
Hospitals, nursing homes, student dorms, religious gatherings, bars, clubs, etc.
Keep capacity at 50-75% and wear masks on lifts and all windows wideopen and blow a draft thru the trams and bubbles and yall good.

Rarely do I agree with Whitegold, but here's a first...

Even with those pictures from Verbier, which definitely were bad (although I note they seemed to have resolved it by day 2), if everyone was wearing a mask, the chance of transmission remain low.
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-10-coronavirus-rare-impossible.html
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BobinCH wrote:
peanuthead wrote:
Dravot wrote:
LaForet wrote:
@abc Yes, I suppose that's an additional option that I hadn't considered.

But it may be that there's evidence that just opening resorts but not cafés and bars is almost as bad as opening everything. This would reflect the argument you get from café, bar and restaurant owners in the UK - that their being open, of itself, isn't a major contributory factor to the infection rate. It's hard to know as we don't have the data and range of experts to hand that governments do.


I'm sure we're going over old ground here...but with properly protected lifts, self-catering and no apres, I fail to see how outdoor skiing is any more contagious than any other outdoor non-contact sport?


If you check out the photos in Chocksaways link above I think you'll find your answer


I was standing in that queue (still covid free fingers crossed!) and would still say it felt safer than the train / taxis I had to get recently. Everyone was masked up, the queueing areas were outdoors or well ventilated. Suspect the optics are worse than the reality.


100% agree - hence my comment about well protected lifts etc and the very low risk of outdoor activity. As an alternative view on risk and travel etc: I went into the office last week for the first time for a couple of months. I've WFH mainly this year and have managed 5/6 overseas business trips and many trips into our central London offices - I've probably had 20+ covid tests to date (all neg). I got a call last Thu to say the team at the opposite end of the office had all tested positive...the office is 4 miles away from home...fortunately I don't work with them, but it shows that despite inherent risk, protection measures, travel restrictions etc, bad luck is also a factor.

Edited to add...as much as I dislike driving, I'll be hiring a car in CH to further mitigate any risk when travelling.
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An update and a question:
1) Clement Beune, Frances junior minister of European Affairs appears to have been on French radio saying (amongst other things) that the EU is still negotiating with Switzerland on "coordinating" on skiing over Christmas Source

2) I noticed reading the press announcement from last Friday that the Swiss Federal Council was meeting again today ("The Federal Council is convinced that only swift action can prevent stricter measures . It will carry out an interim assessment at an extraordinary meeting on Tuesday, December 8th and adopt stricter measures on December 11th if the cantons have not taken the necessary measures."). Does anyone know when this will happen and/or what the outcome was?

Would welcome any local insight on updates here. I have a vested interest as tomorrow is the last day I can cancel my hotel in Wengen for Christmas week!
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It's nothing whatsoever to do with the EU... or, maybe it is... "The European Union has said it is hoping to reach a deal with the country in order to create a level playing field."

(Where have we heard about the "level playing field" before?)

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/switzerland-close-ski-resorts-european-union-skiing-b1767926.html
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Le Nouvelliste (Sion) Just released (18:35 CET, 8 dec 20) this -

PRESS CONFERENCE The Federal Council wants to take back - in part - control of the management of the coronavirus crisis. It is putting a new package of measures up for consultation. From Saturday, throughout Switzerland, shops and restaurants are expected to close at 7 p.m., private meetings will be limited to five people and cultural activities banned.

The Federal Council is taking control of the fight against the coronavirus. As of Saturday, it plans to take measures across Switzerland: shops and restaurants will close at 7 p.m., private meetings will be limited to five people and cultural activities prohibited. The Federal Council took stock of the situation in the Cantons on Tuesday at an extraordinary meeting. With the epidemiological situation in Switzerland deteriorating rapidly, it intends to standardise and strengthen measures at national level. The government has launched a consultation with the Cantons and will make its decision on Friday. Should the situation deteriorate further, further measures will follow on December 18.

Until January 20 - The measures in consultation will take effect on Saturday and will last until January 20, 2021. Restaurants, shops and markets, leisure and sports activities will have to close their doors at 19:00 and will also be closed on Sunday. Private meetings will be limited to a maximum of five people from two households. The number will be increased to ten for the Christmas and New Year celebrations. Public demonstrations will be banned, with the exception of religious celebrations and legislative assemblies. All cultural activities (including school activities) will be prohibited. Professional events too, unless they are broadcast online.
'

For the original in French, see the original Nouvelliste article.

Just to put this into context, the death rate per million so far works out at England=960, France=829 and CH=567. So both sides of the argument are understandable i.e. I can see why France doesn't want things to get worse (by its citizens holidaying in CH) and I can also see why Switzerland may feel a bit more optimistic about keeping them open, with restrictions. I wonder if perhaps they'll reach a compromise where Swiss agree to actively refuse entry to French nationals trying to drive across the border without documentation (if they somehow make it past the French border officials?


Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Wed 9-12-20 11:05; edited 1 time in total
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The plot thickens:

"New restrictions under consideration by the Swiss government to tackle the worsening COVID-19 situation do not extend to outdoor sports, including skiing, Health Minister Alain Berset said on Tuesday.

The government has already announced a raft of measures designed to restrict the virus’s spread in ski areas, including capacity limits on transport, but plans to keep the slopes open unlike neighbours France, Italy and Germany. "
https://uk.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-swiss/proposed-new-swiss-covid-19-restrictions-not-aimed-at-skiing-idUSZ8N2FE01U
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The plot really does thicken! Would be interesting if ski resorts had to be shut on Sundays!
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Does it?

It sounds like Switzerland will let ski resort open. So it's up to the French government to limit their own citizen from crossing the border.

Looking as a bystander, if the Swiss doesn't mind the French (worse virus number) from bringing their virus INTO Switzerland, it's really hard to persuade them to close the ski lifts to stop the French from bringing the virus BACK into France.
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Can I raise one related question which has been concerning me as someone who was hoping to travel to Switzerland to ski this winter. As I understand it, for COVID reasons Switzerland has for the time being closed its borders to non-Schengen countries with the exception of the EFTA countries, the UK and a few other countries listed in the Annex to Switzerland's Covid 19 Ordinance 3. I am assuming (but can't find this out for sure) that the reason that people from the UK are still allowed into Switzerland is because the UK is currently in the transition period and so benefits from the Agreement on the Free Movement of Persons between Switzerland and the EU. If my assumption is right then it presumably follows that after 31 December people from the UK will not be permitted into Switzerland at all while the pandemic lasts unless the UK is added to the countries in the annex to the Covid 19 Ordinance 3 (and I've not seen anything which indicates Switzerland is planning to add the UK to this list). Can anyone shed any light on this issue?
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@whollymoley, I have spoken to the Swiss Embassy in London about this and I think you are correct. The law in Switzerland is that they will not admit travellers coming from high risk areas, and the UK is currently a high risk area. However, UK citizens also enjoy freedom of movement as EU citizens, so Switzerland will admit them. After 31 December, UK citizens will lose that privilege.

The embassy is very friendly and helpful, and if in any doubt at all you should give them a call.
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You are both correct. Unless the Ordinance is changed, UK citizens coming from a high risk area (such as the UK) will not be able to enter Switzerland after the loss of Freedom of Movement on Dec 31.

Brexit has done for UK citizens skiing in Switzerland until COVID rates drop dramatically.

https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/20200744/index.html#id-ni2-2

Persons coming from a high-risk country or from a high-risk area who wish to enter Switzerland must meet at least one of the following requirements:1

a.
they are Swiss citizens;
b.2
they have a travel document;
1.3
a residence document, in particular a Swiss residence permit, a visa issued by Switzerland for the purpose of attending professional consultations as a health sector specialist or for making an official visit of vital importance, and
2.4
an entry permit with a visa issued by Switzerland or the assurance of a residence permit;
c.5
they have rights under the Agreement on the Free Movement of Persons;
d.
they are transporting goods for commercial purposes and can provide a bill of lading for the goods;
e.6
they are simply travelling in transit through Switzerland with the intention of going directly to another country that they are permitted to enter;
f.
they are in an emergency situation;
g.7
they are a specialist in the healthcare sector and need to enter Switzerland for important professional reasons.
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Thanks for the replies Diaphon and Android. I presume that if we can get to Switzerland (or in fact just anywhere in the Schengen area) before 31 December we should be able to cross the border into Switzerland and would not then be required to leave immediately in the New Year? If I am right we would be able to stay if we wanted to - and had the funds - until our 90 days were up. There are other benefits to leaving the UK before the end of the year I think as that would allow us EHIC cover until we returned and may also allow us to avoid the worst of the border chaos which by all accounts is coming our way.
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Before 31 Dec you will be fine, and the EHIC will be valid too.

For trips planned from Jan 1st , the Ordinance means UK citizens will be denied boarding aircraft to CH. Not sure how it will be policed at border crossings.

I have a trip to Saas Fee planned April but as I am an EU citizen I’ll be able to enter - as long as EasyJet don’t cancel the flight from Stansted...
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I got my first Irish passport a couple of months ago.

I live in UK, but does this mean I'll still be entitled to freedom of movement and to enter Switzerland after Dec 31st? Puzzled
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I can’t really see this situation persisting indefinitely with UK a good source of tourist income and also business travellers between London/Zurich.
Does anyone have a link to the list/Schedule of “high risk” countries? There is a list of countries requiring quarantine on arrival into Switzerland that’s easy to find, but UK has been removed from it given Swiss cases are pretty high right now.
I see the UK embassy in Berne is doing a Q&A on covid and travel on Facebook on Thursday.
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jebroni3_16 wrote:
I got my first Irish passport a couple of months ago.

I live in UK, but does this mean I'll still be entitled to freedom of movement and to enter Switzerland after Dec 31st? Puzzled

I also have an Irish passport, which means you are a EU citizen.
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Find it hard to believe CH will turn Brits away after 31st Dec. Several borders are not manned in the evenings so you could just drive through.
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