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VO2 Max

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

If you just want to increase vo2 max as quick as possible there are likely more effective ways. Hickson protocol could be the best https://journals.physiology.org/doi/abs/10.1152/jappl.1977.42.3.372
In 10 weeks the average improvement in vo2 max was 16.8ml/kg per min which is outrageous


That is some seriously heavy training- it's amazing that they didn't injure the entire cohort. There's no way I could run 6x1 mile intervals at VO2 max pace on alternate days with tempo runs on the "recovery" days and be uninjured within 2 weeks let alone 10, and I'm a reasonable recreational runner.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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boarder2020 wrote:


A few points about Strava:
-You are just seeing what someone wants you to. It may or may not be a good reflection of their training. You really think an athlete is giving away their "secret" workout they think makes the difference?
-Any numbers need to be taking in context. For example, top marathon runners are racing at about 3min/km. So while I might consider 4min/km a good interval pace, for them it's easy run pace.
-Elite athletes are using periodization to peak for particular races. In the weeks leading up to a race they will increase the number of high intensity sessions to do this. (There is quite a bit of research about this). Again looking at one of these weeks is not necessarily representative of the year round training
-There are always going to be some outliers. There is a bit of a chicken/egg situation with this too. A person has a really different training program and is performing at a high level. Is this a product of the training, or would they be even better with a more "standard" training plan? Of course we will never know.

I would be surprised if most elite cyclists are not following a program with a high percent of time spent at low intensity training. The research shows the majority of elite endurance athletes are.

......


They're not elite just good "County" cyclists and certainly not paranoid about their training etc though I do have a couple of friends who do go "private" every now and again as they're a tad embarrassed at what they're doing or want to keep it a secret as to how much training that they are doing rolling eyes

Off out for a longish ride and I'll just do my thing though it is a fasting ride, and there's another thing to throw into the pot snowHead
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
kitenski wrote:
DB wrote:
kitenski wrote:
@DB, What model is your tacx trainer?

@boarder2020, are you a coach or trainer in any of this stuff? You seem very knowledgeable!


It‘s a tacx flow (not smart), must be around 15 to 20 years old but has had very little use. Looks like this.
https://images.app.goo.gl/24jWcXA6Gho93pbu7


Sadly that won’t be working with any modern apps


www.wattzap.com and www.goldencheetah.org should work fine with that, among others, but they are both free.
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@weathercam it's hard to say without knowing them or their training history. Are they overtraining putting themselves at risk of injury? Would they be performing better with a polarised training approach? Difficult to answer these questions for a single person. What I would say is the science is overwhelmingly pointing towards a polarised training approach (around 80% low intensity, and 20% very high intensity) for performance. Not only does the science support polarised training producing better performance even at lower training volumes than threshold based training, but it's what we consistently see the top elite endurance athletes using for their training. Going out and doing temp/time trials everyday will certainly improve your cycling performance, but it looks to be inferior to polarised training for optimum performance benefits.

@snowdave yes it's an extremely aggressive approach. From what I heard the researchers kept expecting improvements in vo2 to plateau, but even at the last testing it was still increasing linearly. Because of this they asked the participants if they would continue in order to establish where vo2 would eventually plateau. Unsurprisingly, the participants refused to continue because it was too hard.

Most coaches suggest 1-2 high intensity sessions per week for us regular people. Provides enough stimulus for adaptation, while not too much that we struggle to recover and risk overtraining/injury. Of course if you are a pro athlete with amazingly high lifetime training load, perfect diet, massage after every workout, drugs to help you recover you may manage more, but even then it's usually just saved for "peaking" before competition.
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@davidof, neither of those tools help training, they just analyse what you have done imho.
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kitenski wrote:
@davidof, neither of those tools help training, they just analyse what you have done imho.


Golden Cheetah seems to do all of the training stuff

http://www.goldencheetah.org/#section-features
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DB wrote:
@kitenski,

Thanks, have you (or anybody you know) actually got back real time power data from an exercise machine into a garmin watch?
https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=nQNlKRhnkb30EDOmDAXVJ6


Didn't realise Garmin now owns Tacx
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/02/garmin-acquires-tacx-detailed-analysis-and-what-it-means-to-you.html

This looks interesting ….
https://tacx.com/product/usb-ant-antenna/


To connect any ANT+ peripheral to your computer you just need this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anself-Forerunner-Compatible-CycleOps-TrainerRoad/dp/B01M4NFENM/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=ant%2B+usb+stick&qid=1599489659&sr=8-3&tag=amz07b-21

obviously if you like spending 4x as much for the same thing, feel free, the economy needs a boost.

I don't think your old Flow has any ANT+ capability so you'll need this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/CooSpo-Cadence-Wireless-Bluetooth-Waterproof/dp/B07D4JGTC2/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=ant%2B+speed+sensor&qid=1599489744&sr=8-3&tag=amz07b-21

it clips onto your hub and transmits speed data and you may like a second one to transmit cadence

Then with Wattzap or Golden Cheetah you can train with Power on your old Taxc flow if it is still serviceable or any other trainer.


http://youtube.com/v/_O7VgaZMDrQ
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@davidof,
Don‘t think my old tacx flow monitors or displays power output.
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The past three weeks I've been testing the new Honor (Huawei) Watch GS Pro - the watch is crammed with so much functionality it's a little bewildering.

The reason I was sent it was because of the ski mode functionality, though as we explained to Huawei we will not really be able to test that just yet!

Anyway, the watch is a superb bit of kit, especially when linked to the Huawei Health App, and within that, you can analyse your Stress levels, sleep patterns/performance (quite addictive), measure blood oxygen levels (SpO2) and much more.

I've been comparing it on numerous bike rides against my Wahoo bike computer and data is pretty similar, HR a tad out at times but that is probably due to the wrist HR measuring vs a chest strap.

Yesterday I went for a run wearing it and when running it purports to measure your Vo2 Max levels, it does measure blood oxygen levels (SpO2) at rest so presume this is just an extension of those sensors, but the big question is how accurate can those truly be?

Been doing some Googling on this and found this from Runners World from 2017 so would suspect technology has moved on?

https://www.runnersworld.com/gear/a20856601/can-your-watch-estimate-your-vo2-max/

And this more recently
https://www.androidauthority.com/pulse-oximeter-1068982/


So after seeing these readings I obviously doubt its accuracy Laughing





Like I said a great watch and here's my detailed review
https://stylealtitude.com/honor-watch-gs-pro-test-review.html

However, for me one big negative is that it does not sync to Strava, though Huawei do say that they are working on that, but they've been saying that for a while.

However if you're not bothered about lack of Strava integration then I know that after the launch on Amazon on the 6th - for two days from 13th to 14th October for Amazon Prime Day the offers below will be available

HONOR Watch GS Pro: promoted from 249.99 to 199.99

HONOR Magic Earbuds: promoted from 89.99 to 59.99


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sat 3-10-20 8:24; edited 1 time in total
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@Weathercam,

I am bewildered by all the info available on watches etc nowadays. I basically just use pace, distance, HR, time.
What is surprising about your post is 68hrs recovery on what looks like an steady run. Would be good to see the stats when you increase the pace
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@stewart woodward, yes those recovery times are always questionable Puzzled

The beauty of a smart-watch such as this is the ability to not only see who is calling which most watches do, but actually answer & speak using it rather then having to stop when cycling and pull the phone out the back pocket and bag etc etc
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Weathercam, watch out. They’ll be cloning mini-weathercams in Chinese labs in an attempt to build a Chinese elite seniors ski-touring team...
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Top.country skier. 90

Husky 240.

I once saw a husky do a bottom to top sprint ascent at Whistler (1600m) ascent
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:

Yesterday I went for a run wearing it and when running it purports to measure your Vo2 Max levels, it does measure blood oxygen levels (SpO2) at rest so presume this is just an extension of those sensors, but the big question is how accurate can those truly be?


Vo2 max is an estimate based on algorithms using heart rate at different running speeds. I wouldn't read much into it it's not the most accurate. Anything that claims to measure vo2 max without measuring what you are breathing out is pretty questionable. Spo2 is not particularly useful, as it will just stay around 95-100% for a normal healthy person at sea level regardless of what you do. There is some evidence for it in terms of predicting altitude sickness but I question how necessary that is (proper acclimatisation plan with modifications depending on how you feel should be more than adequate and is more tried and tested than watch spo2).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
cameronphillips2000 wrote:
Top.country skier. 90

Husky 240.

I once saw a husky do a bottom to top sprint ascent at Whistler (1600m) ascent


I once saw a cougar do a 30m sprint to jump on a train. It was amazing seeing her move so fast in a pair of high heels, respect. Toofy Grin wink
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
boarder2020 wrote:
Anything that claims to measure vo2 max without measuring what you are breathing out is pretty questionable.

There are actually few researches out, proving at least Polar isn't far off real values. Polar has "fitness test" included in their HRMs for some 20 years or so now, and values that came out of that are pretty accurate when compared to real lab VO2max test. No idea about other smart watches, but as I wrote, at least for Polar it's been proven they are quite accurate. But let's face it, VO2max numbers don't tell much... if they would be any real measure, I would have Olympic medal in xc skiing, but in reality, I sucked big time never came close to that. Wink
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Quote:

There are actually few researches out, proving at least Polar isn't far off real values. Polar has "fitness test" included in their HRMs for some 20 years or so now, and values that came out of that are pretty accurate when compared to real lab VO2max test.


Would be interested to see the papers.

The esco 2012 paper suggests that polar Is not accurate predictor of vo2 max. Granted it's a bit old and they may have improved the algorithm a bit by now.

There is a recent paper by cooper published in 2019 that suggests polar does a great job estimating vo2. If you actually read the paper though you quickly realise there is a huge flaw in the study design. The researchers didn't actually measure vo2 max! They compared polar vo2 max estimation to Bruce test vo2 max estimation. Bruce test is a flawed test - I've seen correlation coefficient values values of 0.49-0.59 when comparing it to directly measured vo2 max.

(My first thought was the study is extremely shady and was expecting to see it was funded by polar. However, it's actually an undergrad student as the leading author meaning he was probably doing the study as his dissertation and didn't have enough lab time or access to do the study properly i.e. compare the polar with actual measured vo2 max.)

The watch companies like you to think they have it worked out, but they haven't. It's too hard to accurately predict vo2 max from non direct testing. If there was a test out there that worked well coaches would much prefer to use it over lab testing (cost, limited access, travel). The fact is coaches are still sending athletes to labs because they know it's the only way.

We go back to the question posed earlier in the thread though, why even worry about vo2 max? For the standard recreational athlete it's a fairly useless number. You can't use it as a training tool like other lab measured variables (e.g. lactate threshold). There are much easier, cheaper, and more simple measures to quantify improvements in fitness.

It's fun to see what your watch predicts. Increases in watch vo2 max probably more often that not correspond with overall fitness improving (and vice versa). But the idea that your watch can accurately calculate vo2 max is more marketing ploy than science!
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@boarder2020, I honestly don't care much about this nowadays, so I don't follow all that scientific part much anymore, or at least I follow it way less then I did when I was still involved into pro endurance sport. It was a while since I saw those researches, and friend of mine was part of group who did one at our Sports university some 10 years or so ago, with proper vo2max measurements to compare results, and at that time Polar was somewhere in range of +/-3-4% compared to real tests.
But as we both obviously agree, vo2max is pretty useless thing, and there are way better and more important values that are essential for training and for measuring improvements in training. But vo2max is obvously cool thing to put into watches to help sale.
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Since starting this thread over a month ago we have a fitness challenge at work (virgin pulse) and I've been doing 20 to 30 hours of exercise a week (most of it low intensity). My fitness looks to have improved e.g. First up the hill during a 1000m climb with my MTB mates, achieving higher bike speeds for the same heart rate, being able to cycle on my touring bike for over 10 hours at a time.

According to my watch, my VO2max has remained pretty much the same (48.). Once the challenge is over in a month I will start reducing the exercise hours while increasing the percentage of higher intensity workouts and strength training.


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 6-10-20 17:55; edited 1 time in total
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@DB, you'll be tearing the legs off the snappers ski touring too next season at this rate Laughing
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Weathercam wrote:
@DB, you'll be tearing the legs off the snappers ski touring too next season at this rate Laughing


.. or I'll end up being top fit for the next lock down. Embarassed
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Related link ....
https://www.uphillathlete.com/goettlersteckkhumbutraining/
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@boarder2020, IIRC The original tabata studies gave similar results but when asked none of the athletes wanted to volunteer for another round of testing because it was so exhausting.
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Quote:

IIRC The original tabata studies gave similar results but when asked none of the athletes wanted to volunteer for another round of testing because it was so exhausting.


The original Tabata study (I'm assuming this is the 1996 one) found vo2 max improved 7 ml·kg-1·min-1 over 6 weeks, which interestingly was only 2 more than the steady state group. The performance improvements were mainly due to anaerobic capacity which increased by 28%, rather than vo2 max. The conclusion wasn't tabata is great for improving vo2 max, it was tabata increases anaerobic capacity (unlike steady state exercise) while also producing similar (possibly even better) aerobic adaptations than steady state exercise.

After 6 week the Hickson protocol group improved vo2 max about 10ml·kg-1·min-1, compared to Tabata groups 7.

We are talking single studies with small participant numbers though. So while more research is needed it looks like Hickson is better option for vo2 max improvements. Most of the top endurance running coachs are using 3-5min intervals for vo2 max work, and there is plenty of evidence to support this.

Tabata has been kind of bastardised though by many. It's pretty much impossible to do precisely on anything but a stationary bike.

Quote:

Related link ....
https://www.uphillathlete.com/goettlersteckkhumbutraining/


The uphill athlete guys are fantastic, their training is based on science and they have the real world results to validate their methods. The link is very interesting, but it's perhaps a little off topic, as it's really focusing on high altitude which I think most of us are not spending much time at.
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boarder2020 wrote:
Quote:

Related link ....
https://www.uphillathlete.com/goettlersteckkhumbutraining/


The uphill athlete guys are fantastic, their training is based on science and they have the real world results to validate their methods. The link is very interesting, but it's perhaps a little off topic, as it's really focusing on high altitude which I think most of us are not spending much time at.


Went up to 4554m / almost 15000 ft last year and was toying with going higher. Certainly hope to do more 4000'ers and maybe a 5000er or 6000er sometime.

It's either that or I buy myself an old-timer motorbike and bask my family jewels in vicks vapour rub just like Masque. wink
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Go to Nepal, lots of nice hiking up to 5600m.

My issue with the link is that it's very specific to high altitude. The conclusion - "NO amount of high-intensity training can provide the needed metabolic or structural adaptations for optimal performance at altitude" - is probably correct. But for most of us that are not solely high altitude climbers, some high intensity work is very beneficial. I don't think Scott Johnson (author of the linked article) would disagree, here is a quote from him in reply to someone asking about interval work (2 mile repeats on a track) - "These workouts will positively benefit you in your uphill pursuits. They’ll build aerobic power, specific leg muscular endurance and maximally work the ventilatory muscles."

If your goal is Everest without supplemental oxygen it's worth thinking about. For most of us that will maybe go up to 6000m once a year an 80:20 style polarised training method with most training being low intensity seems to be optimal.
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Interesting read
https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/fitness-and-training/andrew-feather-hill-climb-champion/
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Weathercam wrote:
Interesting read
https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/fitness-and-training/andrew-feather-hill-climb-champion/


Thanks for that - really interesting. 300W LT. Wow!

Looks like all I need to do is lose 25kg without impacting my aerobic fitness and I'll equal his w/kg Happy
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