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Salomon S/LAB Shift binding

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@Dabber, +1

Although they don’t feel significantly different to my previous Beast 14/16’s, they are much easier to use Very Happy

@spyderjon, Do you know the chronology of the Shift design? It would be interesting to know if it was a reaction to the Beast, or a parallel development.
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Meltus wrote:
Yep, sure I have 100mm brakes. They've seen fairly heavy use over the past couple of seasons and I think they may have been bent inwards as they've definitely got worse this season.

I'll try chopping a slice off the plastic, see what that does, not sure where I'd get a piece of pipe. Cheers

I did trim a little off the plastic on my 100mm shift brakes to make it (much) easier to separate the skis, but haven't encountered sticking brakes. A short length of 15mm copper water pipe (stocked by most DIY stores) is about the right size to fit over the brake if you need to gently bend it outwards.
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PowderAdict wrote:
......@spyderjon, Do you know the chronology of the Shift design? It would be interesting to know if it was a reaction to the Beast, or a parallel development.

The Shift was launched at the January 2018 trade show in advance of its availability for the 18/19 season and at the launch Salomon said it had been seven years in development.

The Beast 16 was launched at the January 2013 trade show in advance of its availability for the 13/14 season. However I received a pre-production set a year before and I've just found the Confidentiality Agreement that I signed and it was dated 3rd Feb 2012. I'm don't know how long it'd been in development but they had to have started work on it quite some time before the Shift was conceived.
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Thank you @spyderjon, based on the 7 year development for the Shift, it is possible that it was a reaction to the Beast and it opening a new market segment for a freeride binding that tours well.

Strangely a German couple on the same tour as me in Japan had just been sold Marker F12’s in Germany, as they were ‘better’ than the Shift’s which apparently had ‘problems’. It was even more bizarre as they both had pin compatible boots Shocked
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PowderAdict wrote:
.......Strangely a German couple on the same tour as me in Japan had just been sold Marker F12’s in Germany, as they were ‘better’ than the Shift’s which apparently had ‘problems’......

Laughing They've been well screwed then by someone with a load of frame bindings in stock. And if they didn't go with the Shift I'd still prefer the Tecton/Kingpin/Rad 2 over a frame binding. I haven't sold a frame binding for two seasons (still got three F12 Tour EPF's in stock from two years ago rolling eyes) whereas 6/7 years ago I was selling 30 sets a season.

There's been a few Shift problems were the tour lever wasn't staying fully up in tour mode which has been traced to a tolerance issue but we're only talking about a handful of individual toes out of the thousands that have been sold. Any other Shift niggles/issues are most definitely down to set-up &/or lack of snow clearance etc.


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 28-02-20 20:42; edited 1 time in total
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Yes, that was my thought Sad

I have to admit that it does look a little odd to me now when I see someone touring on frame bindings, as the vast majority are on pin bindings.

One of my guides on Shift’s did have a ski come off a couple of times when kicking/stomping in a new skin track in deep snow, as the toe lever wasn’t staying the locked up position, and used a Voile type strap to ‘fix’ it. They were heavily used, so it maybe a wear issue. It may be the same issue you mentioned, if you meant above that the tour lever “wasn’t” staying fully up, rather than “was”?
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Yep, sorry, I meant wasn't.
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@spyderjon, said
Quote:
Alpine bindings with height adjustable AFD's are designed to be set up with a 0.5mm gauge. However the Shift is different as the gauge should only be 0.2mm or a double thickness of the instruction sheet that comes with the bindings. That means that the usual business card toe height is too great for the Shift and could lead to problems. And adjust the AFD height so that the boot has a firm but smooth 'feeler gauge' grip on the gauge.

I've recently mounted my Shifts, but wanted something a bit more permanent than paper sheet to carry for setting the AFD height for different boots...

Dug out my old set of auto. feeler gauges and the 8 thou feeler is spot on for this (.203mm) ..sorted snowHead
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@geoffers, for a while now I've been setting Shifts with 0.1mm gauge when using an alpine/WTR/GW boot and on AT boots the AFD is just touching the boot sole - and they all torque test perfectly.
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@spyderjon, how would shift compare to the marker duke dp (as in this link about new stuff that came from ISPO -
http://youtube.com/v/cwZ00kiSyD8)?
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@mooney058, that Marker binding looks frought with problems in the field. no thanks...
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mooney058 wrote:
@spyderjon, how would shift compare to the marker duke dp.......

The benefits of the new Duke PT 16 compared to the Shift (ie higher din, a bit more heel elasticity in the Jester heel) is only useful to a very few pro/high level skiers who are skiing aggressive steep lines and taking big airs etc and who are prepared to take the hit of the greatly increased weight. The increased cost of the Duke PT 16 (£100 at list v Shift 13 for 20/21) probably won't be a factor as these guys will either get them for free or have a well discounted Pro deal. The alpine toe, tech toe & heel are slight variations of proven Marker parts so should be reliable. So providing one doesn't drop/loose the removable alpine toe when transitioning then they should be fine. There's lots of nooks'n'crannies for snow penetration/icing but these bindings aren't for the 'fast transition' market so taking an extra few mins to clean them out isn't an issue.

The PT 12 version has no benefit over the Shift at all now that Salomon are introducing a 4-10 din Shift from the Autumn.

For the mass market then the Shift will have been out for two years by the time the PT's arrive and they have been a fantastic success so IMO a huge proportion of the market has already been lost so for that reason, and the reasons above, I won't be stocking the PT's. I will however have a jig and will be offering a mounting &/or Quiver Killer'ing service.

I can see the PT 16 killing off the CAST system and also the BAM Pindung.
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spyderjon wrote:
Salomon are introducing a 4-10 din Shift from the Autumn.

Woohoo! Not that I have any skis to put them on, but I'm sure that's a problem you can assist with wink
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You know it makes sense.
Scarlet wrote:
spyderjon wrote:
Salomon are introducing a 4-10 din Shift from the Autumn.

Woohoo! Not that I have any skis to put them on, but I'm sure that's a problem you can assist with wink

Yep, I've already got you sorted.
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@spyderjon, would appreciate your advice and how to fit shift when expanding my gear.

Currently I am on QST106 (2018) with Salomon MNC16.

Thinking about the second pair of skis and was thinking the following:

- replace MNC16 with the Shift on QST106 (for the use in Japan and sweeter days in Europe). I really like the QST106 and hope to keep them for a couple more years. Would such swap be possible in your view?

- put MNC (would need new brakes) on something with 75-90 under foot (for most of European Alps skiing that I encounter).

Would such a setup make sense? I have not toured and understand that a lighter solution would be needed. This would be indeed to cover lighter touring and as intro to touring. So was thinking whether Shift would fit my plans and current gear?
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I use the QST 106 for almost all days in the Alps now - its such a good ski and does everything well.
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@Charliee, so just swap MNC16 with the Shift. This would indeed be less expensive solution as Shifts would serve for a light touring and as a downhill binding.

But then I could still mount MNC16 on a narrow ski for those icy pistes.

Mu headache is whether Shift is the right product in my case and if so whether it could be used on my “old” QST106
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@mooney058, I don't think MNC is a binding model, rather a tech in some models of bindings?

Shift on QST106s would be a great one ski quiver for basically everything but the iciest of pistes.

I use them on Down CD104ls, which is very like the QST but 2mm narrower and a bit lighter. V happy with them, even on firm pistes.
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@clarky999, indeed, apologies- the binding currently on QST106 is Salomon STH2 WTR16
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spyderjon wrote:
Scarlet wrote:
spyderjon wrote:
Salomon are introducing a 4-10 din Shift from the Autumn.

Woohoo! Not that I have any skis to put them on, but I'm sure that's a problem you can assist with wink

Yep, I've already got you sorted.

That's what I feared Laughing



*Applies more gaffer tape to wallet.*
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mooney058 wrote:
.....the binding currently on QST106 is Salomon STH2 WTR16

mooney058, assuming you're using the same sole length in the Shift that the STH2 was mounted for then the Shift will work around the existing mount locations and will share one pair of the toe locations.
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@spyderjon, thanks! Good to know!
So hope my new (pin) boots will be 325mm just like my current 7-8 year old Hawk 130. Hope Hawk Ultra Xtd 130 would fit me as then the sole lenght should still be 325.

Off to write a letter to summer Santa: new boots, new skis and Shifts Smile

Should be driving my daughter to Uni in August, should possibly extend the trip and stay to get new boots in Bicester and then head to the Piste Office.
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@spyderjon, thanks for your very quick response today - I managed an unintentional somersault yesterday in some heavy snow (not that I am capable of intentional ones) and the Shifts released and saved my leg/knee, but I managed to break the AFD (guessing that I still had pressure on them as my foot twisted and took them beyond the normal AFD spring travel range).
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I used my shifts for the day last last week. They are mounted up on some old, relatively heavy twin tips which I intend to use as a 'mucking about in resort' set up, with a touring option if needed.

The conditions were deep if heavy powder and a bit of piste, and they performed fine. In the afternoon I skinned up about 300m and that seemed to work well too. Even though I mounted them behind the original drill holes they skied nicely from the off.

They give a couple of advantages over my usual Rad2 set up, mainly the confidence to attack the bumps plus a little flexibility in boot choice when not touring. I also wonder if they are a better choice for a heavier ski ?

On the down side there is the weight penelty, plus they seem to be more phaf than the Dynafits when touring.

I think if you are planning to do more than occasional touring I think I'd go Rad2 (or whatever it's called now) over the shifts.
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spyderjon wrote:
mooney058 wrote:
.....the binding currently on QST106 is Salomon STH2 WTR16

mooney058, assuming you're using the same sole length in the Shift that the STH2 was mounted for then the Shift will work around the existing mount locations and will share one pair of the toe locations.


Spyderjon, would I be able to use my Salomon STH2 WTR16 that are currently on QST16 on any narrow(er) GS or SL skis or is it only good for All Mountain category?
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@mooney058, the Salomon STH2 WTR16 is a top end alpine binding and its performance is right up there with the best. The only potential issues with mounting them on a SL/GS ski are:

- the width of the toe binding which, IIRC, is wider than standard and could be too wide on a narrow width ski. Some overhang either side of the ski isn't an issue providing it's not excessive. And IIRC the lateral spacing of the mounting screws on the STH2 toe is 40mm so that's no problem on a narrow ski etc. A quick measure of the width of your toe binding will give you an idea of any overhang but the exact amount will depend upon the width of the SL/GS skis as they do vary.
- most SL/GS come with a race plate that are often predrilled for the manufacturers race binding range so you might have a mounting hole conflict issue or it might not even be possible to mount another model of binding. There's no problem removing the plates and flat mounting the STH2's to the skis assuming there's no conflict with the existing plate mounting locations. Or you could swap the plate for a undrilled one like one of the Vist models that I stock - again assuming there's no conflict with the existing and new plate mounting locations but even if there is I can manufacture custom plates Cool
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Thanks @spyderjon, hope by August/September this mess will be over and I will booking an appointment with you! Smile

And to be on the topic I would need Shifts fixed on my current QST106
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Shift 10 now arrived. All black as opposed to the blue/black of the 13 din version. Everything else the same.

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@spyderjon, Ooh pretty. Shame I haven't got any spare skis to put them on wink

Actually, genuine question, what would the delta be on these with my dinky Zero-G boots? The F12s are brutal...
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Scarlet wrote:
@spyderjon, Ooh pretty. Shame I haven't got any spare skis to put them on wink

Actually, genuine question, what would the delta be on these with my dinky Zero-G boots? The F12s are brutal...

IIRC the delta will be similar, or even a tad more with the Shifts - however the Shifts are a doddle to shim whereas the F10/12's can't be shimmed by more than 2mm.

And no problem mounting the Shifts around your existing F12 locations wink
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@spyderjon, That makes sense, though how big would the shims need to be? 8mm? Shocked Laughing
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Scarlet wrote:
@spyderjon, That makes sense, though how big would the shims need to be? 8mm? Shocked Laughing

Nah, 6mm will do it, same as I use.

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@spyderjon, remember that story, about the princess and the pea? Laughing

I wasn't going to ask this question, because I didn't want to make you dismantle your skis. But then I thought, of course he won't need to, Jon will already know then answer to 2 dp.

So, what does it weigh (per ski)?
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@spyderjon, Ack, you've changed the picture now, so I just sound like an idiot rolling eyes
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The Shift 10's are 875g per ski with a 90mm brake (which are actually 97/98mm) plus a shim at 80g so a bit lighter than your F12's at 1075g. However their uphill performance is dramatically better as, like any other tech binding, you're not lifting the weight of the heel'n'frame with every stride and they have a more natural pivot point. And on the down they're a lot stiffer than the F12 and have a lot more lateral elasticity in the toe.


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 19-06-20 15:38; edited 1 time in total
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@spyderjon, is 4 the absolute lowest they go, or can you unscrew a bit further and get the DIN below the certified range?
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@spyderjon, I actually meant the massive shim, but on reading it again, I didn't really specify that rolling eyes

I assume you could QK with the shims so they could be removed for different boots? Do you have to mess around with toe height adjustment, or is that a frame binding thing? Switching between boots on the F12 is such a colossal PITA that given the mind bending delta, I set them back to my alpine boots and will never change them again!
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@Scarlet, I guess you might need 2 sets of screws - long and short, or just one: short and lucky/non faceplanty
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Scarlet wrote:
@spyderjon, I actually meant the massive shim, but on reading it again, I didn't really specify that rolling eyes

I assume you could QK with the shims so they could be removed for different boots? Do you have to mess around with toe height adjustment, or is that a frame binding thing? Switching between boots on the F12 is such a colossal PITA that given the mind bending delta, I set them back to my alpine boots and will never change them again!

The shim is 80g - I put 80mm by mistake in my earlier post.

Yep, if you use QK's then the shims (with their appropriately longer screws) just move to the other skis with the bindings.

Changing the toe height on the Shifts is just like that on the F12's - however seeing as they can be shimmed for your Zero G's then you'd just leave them set for that boot. The AFD units actually just unclick so I've got a couple of customers who use different boots on different skis and share one binding using QK's so I've supplied them with another pair of AFD's that they leave set for each boot and just swap them (it takes 5 secs) when they swap the bindings over.
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snowdave wrote:
@spyderjon, is 4 the absolute lowest they go, or can you unscrew a bit further and get the DIN below the certified range?

I've just had a look and tried that and yep, you can do that. Judging by the spacing on the scale you'd easily achieve 3.5 and maybe 3. HOWEVER, if you plan on doing that I'd want to torque test a pair to ensure consistency of release at that low level and I'd want to strip down a toe as I'd want to ensure that there's sufficient threads engaged on the adjustment screw etc.
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