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Is the 2020/2021 a non starter?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
BobinCH wrote:
Wouldn’t it make more sense to have a Schengen area agreement? Half the flights to/from the French Alps go via Geneva. How’s that going to work?

Oh yeah, but I think the problem is that some countries are doing well, have the virus under control and a very low rate of infection (Switzerland, Austria, Czech etc.), and other countries are the UK. If everyone was in the same place, it would be much simpler, but essentially half the countries are waiting for the other half to catch up.

Also, some are more keen to open their borders. Austria and Italy, for example, rely very heavily on foreign tourism, particularly from Germany (UK is probably up there too), but Germany has a very small number of foreign tourists and so the main benefit to them is that their citizens can go on holiday rather than having a direct benefit to their economy. Germany is much more reluctant to open its borders, certainly to the south anyway.

Related article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/12/eu-reopen-borders-tourists-covid-19-recovery-plan
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@johnE, Laughing

It won't be the last time that an official government spokesman needs to clean up after a Minister, even a Prime Minister, gets some of the detail wrong.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
TheGeneralist wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
It seems only the English can be called racist or xenophobic, for taking displaying their flag.

Um Nick. He said Union Jack mate......


Yes, by implication it's an English problem. He did not criticise the other nations leaders.

The Scots, Irish, Welsh, NZ, German governments etc etc, can display their flags, but the UK govt (it's the govt of the UK, not England), can't display the Union Flag (not Union Jack)?

The Union Flag is the flag of England, Scotland & Wales and it is entirely appropriate that the UK govt use it.

If the UK govt stood in front of a St George flag THEN you'd be right in having a go!
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justabod wrote:
@NickYoung

In an international situation it makes sense to identify the speaker however that's not necessary when addressing one's own people.

The government represent the people not the whole nation: the Queen as Sovereign does that.


If your first point is accepted, why do all the other leaders do the same? Why did the poster not criticise them also?

I'm not convinced on your second point; that's a very nuanced point.

What is termed patriotism in other countries, is usually called racism when talking about England.

Apologies for contributing to thread drift!
ski holidays
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This is interesting if you happen to live in one of these nine countries:
Quote:
Nine countries scattered across the world, but united in their successful handling of the virus are also actively seeking ways of setting up travel bubbles or corridors, broadening an unlikely alliance.

In their second meeting via teleconference on Thursday, the leaders of Austria, Greece, Israel, Norway, Denmark, the Czech Republic, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand agreed that as each begins to ease restrictions they could capitalise on low infection rates by creating tourism safe zones.

Maybe that NZ trip isn't dead after all...
From: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/12/what-is-the-future-for-travel-and-immigration-in-age-of-covid-19
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Hintertux planning to open on 29th May

....if only rolling eyes
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@Bennyboy1, Kitzsteinhorn on the 29th as well.

Stubai not yet announced.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@NickYoung, I don't care what other countries do very much, except that we're copying the Americans. We don't need to drape ourselves in flags all day long and especially not when politicians co-opt them to pretend that the quarantine and associated panic is some sort of Great National Effort that Will Draw Us All Together. It's not and it won't.

The flag doesn't belong to Johnson it belongs to the nation. If, as the gov't or as PM, they do represent the country then why isn't the HoC chamber draped in the bloody things? It's not because Parliament sits at HMQ's permission.
ski holidays
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justabod wrote:
@NickYoung, I don't care what other countries do very much, except that we're copying the Americans. We don't need to drape ourselves in flags all day long and especially not when politicians co-opt them to pretend that the quarantine and associated panic is some sort of Great National Effort that Will Draw Us All Together. It's not and it won't.

The flag doesn't belong to Johnson it belongs to the nation. If, as the gov't or as PM, they do represent the country then why isn't the HoC chamber draped in the bloody things? It's not because Parliament sits at HMQ's permission.


How can you say we are copying the Americans, when EVERY leader in the world does it? Given the US is less than 250 year's old, it's them copying other, older nations.

The Union Flag is the flag of the UK govt, whether you like it or not.
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At the risk on being on topic across these meandering threads on the virus I have reached a conclusion relevant to this one.

2020/21 is a non starter. By then skiing, or not, will be the least of our concerns.

2021/22 depends on what survives in the way of transport, facility and infrastructure and how many of us can still afford to ski. Which once again will be a very rich mans hobby.
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robboj wrote:
At the risk on being on topic across these meandering threads on the virus I have reached a conclusion relevant to this one.

2020/21 is a non starter. By then skiing, or not, will be the least of our concerns.

2021/22 depends on what survives in the way of transport, facility and infrastructure and how many of us can still afford to ski. Which once again will be a very rich mans hobby.


On a live chat an hour or so ago, Simon Calder (travel expert), was asked if a planned Obergurgl ski holiday in December was likely to go ahead - he thought it would.

He also said that Austria had perhaps had the most success in dealing with the pandemic (though I missed in what terms he referenced that comment).

Fingers crossed.
ski holidays
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
davidof wrote:
As far as I am aware Steve Rawlings hasn't seen the code on which the Ferguson March report is based. ...
Incorrect.
The strange "lock down sceptics"post he's discussing directly references a public GitHub Repo.

davidof wrote:
Look Rob, you're reasonable. Do you really want decisions to shut down the whole economy based on some program that hasn't been published, hasn't been peer reviewed, has been hacked up by a non-coder and has not been written in accordance with even a minimum of what would be called standard engineering practices...
You're not using reason.

The world has shut down their economies because they don't want to have people die needlessly, not because of any UK academic.
It's got nothing at all to do with technology (R or 5G). And especially nothing to do with bleach, which you should not drink even if big boys tell you to.
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NickYoung wrote:
robboj wrote:
At the risk on being on topic across these meandering threads on the virus I have reached a conclusion relevant to this one.

2020/21 is a non starter. By then skiing, or not, will be the least of our concerns.

2021/22 depends on what survives in the way of transport, facility and infrastructure and how many of us can still afford to ski. Which once again will be a very rich mans hobby.


On a live chat an hour or so ago, Simon Calder (travel expert), was asked if a planned Obergurgl ski holiday in December was likely to go ahead - he thought it would.

He also said that Austria had perhaps had the most success in dealing with the pandemic (though I missed in what terms he referenced that comment).

Fingers crossed.


@NickYoung I really hope he's right. Until today I've been working on the assumption that it won't happen solely as a means of coping with the disappointment if it doesn't.

After todays furlough farce I've had an overdose of negativity, and tbh the probability is that if there's any reason we can't travel it'll be down to the clowns in charge here. If anywhere will make it happen in the Alps it'll be the Austrians.

As long as its not Butlins in the snow. i.e. breakfast and dinner at fixed times, packed lunch, restricted to certain runs and lifts, no aprés, no swim & sauna, no bar and straight to bed - No thanks!
ski holidays
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Travelexperts know very little about viruses, politics and public administration
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Langerzug, +1 - you only have to look back at the "will France close" thread on here to see what people were being told by "those in the know" even 24 hours before resorts shut, so Calder, like the rest of us, is speculating. As a travel correspondent, if he told his employers there would be no travel for a year, I suspect he'd risk becoming closely acquainted with the furlough scheme.
ski holidays
 Poster: A snowHead
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Calder is to travel, what Martin Lewis is to saving money.

His opinions are based on the most up-to-date info from travel companies and governmental advice.

I doubt he has all the answers - but I bloody hope he's right!
ski holidays
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@NickYoung, who knows what the 2020/21 ski season will look like in order to give Mr Calder such good advice and information?

The travel companies that put a load of people on planes to the alps on Saturday 14th March, only to have to ship them home again the next day? Or the ski resorts that all announced they were staying open for a month, only to close the same day? Or the same PM who told us shaking hands was fine, to then nearly die from COVID?

I doubt he has any more answers than anyone else at this point.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@snowdave, +1. Calder is suffering from a hefty dose of cognitive dissonance and grieving for a lost normality, just as the rest of us are. He has no special knowledge beyond his own interpretation of Boris’ speech and possibly informal chats with (desperate/ optimistic) travel company management.

We very much want to go skiing in December. But currently assuming we’ll decide ~3 days beforehand if we’re going or not, will probably drive out, and self-insure.
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@Inboard, "grieving for a lost normality" - I like that. Although I wonder if we'll eventually look back on pre-COVID times as the aberration or normality?

On the upside, I've had lunch and dinner with my wife and kids every day for 7 weeks now, slept every night in my own bed and not gone near an airport. In my old life, I'd never had lunch with them on a weekday (outside holidays), and spent about a fifth of the year away from home. I'll trade that for a ski season, although I'd rather not be trading it for people dying.
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Who knows (well he knows more than me), and ever the optimist, I'll cross my fingers and try to believe him.
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@snowdave, +1

there’s lots of things I like about the current situation (apart from the people dying, obvs). Very good to see innovation from some cities/ policy makers/ business leaders as they’re looking towards the exit... will be interesting to see what the outcome is...
ski holidays
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@NickYoung, +1. I’m also keeping my fingers crossed and dearly hoping for skiing in December, too.
ski holidays
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
The only thing we can be sure about is that holiday prospects for next December will be different from last December, or from now. But I hope that Simon Calder whose speculation is based on many years of close observation of and business intelligence from the travel industry is at least slightly more likely to be on the mark than @snowdave. We do need a little bit of optimism in our lives just now!
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@snowdave, absolutely. This was (is) my life before and now during covid.
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I think that a reasonable path might be testing everyone before going abroad (or to a hotel for that matter). It's not going to be 100% but close to that. You schedule a test 48 or 72 hours before going. I think this should be done and paid for privately. It could be a good earner to Universities with PCR gear and lots of students to run it.
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I just find it so hard to believe holiday travel won’t be allowed by December or it will involve a quarantine either where you are going or when you come back (which effectively kills holiday travel). Right now it’s looking that way though sadly, but I think a lot depends on the next month or so if a second wave can be avoided. Things are changing by the week.
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Quote:

You schedule a test 48 or 72 hours before going. I think this should be done and paid for privately. It could be a good earner to Universities with PCR gear and lots of students to run it.

That's an interesting idea - something like what dog owners have to do before travelling with their pets.
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I've booked a Eurotunnel return 2021 outbound Jan return Feb. for about £170. This on the basis that we'd be self-catering in an apartment. Worst-case, I'll end-up rescheduling it or even writing it off. It seemed a bet worth taking to hedge against uncertainty and the possibility that airline collapses will make flights expensive/unavailable.

An observation I'd make was that the 2021 Jan/Feb Sunday and Wednesday I booked, both outside school holidays, were 'very busy' according to Eurotunnel. Probably due to a lot of people like me thinking it's worth booking as a form of insurance.
ski holidays
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Huh. It seems Vienna airport is already implementing testing to avoid the quarantine
https://www.euronews.com/amp/2020/05/06/coronavirus-travellers-charged-190-at-vienna-airport-to-avoid-14-day-covid-19-quarantine

The price is quite steep, but it's early days
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Surely they need to impose the tests before people fly, rather than on arrival? Otherwise if the last person off the plane tests positive, everyone on that flight will probably need to quarantine for two weeks - even if they have just paid €190 per head for a test that shows negative!
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Borders are starting to open. From Friday, checks on the Austrian-German border will be reduced to random spot checks, and the border will fully open on 15th June. Similar agreements with Switzerland, Lichtenstein, Czech etc. but not Italy are expected to follow. AFAICT there is no quarantine requirement. This is good news for tourism in Austria.

https://www.tt.com/artikel/30732201/freie-fahrt-zwischen-deutschland-und-oesterreich-ab-15-juni

It looks like Stubai are planning to open on 4th July, although Zillertal glaciers will start earlier, on 29th May.
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I don’t know why everyone is speculating on the likelihood of skiing in 6+ months when the picture is changing every 6+ days! Also I don’t understand why so many on here delight in being so gloomy - lighten up people! We’re lucky enough to enjoy the best pastime ever invented & we will again, probably next season.

I also get the feeling that the more “leftist” your inclination, the more Eeyoreish you’re likely to be. Why? When James B Donovan kept asking Rudolf Abel if he was worried he got the reply “Will it help?” I think we should take a leaf out of Rudolf’s book! Toofy Grin
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I understand the 'What's the point of worrying about something I can't control?' approach. And it's easy to get into a downward spiral. But a degree of anticipation and planning now could be useful. Aren't people just outlining some reasonable scenarios for the next 18 months, and seeing if they can perhaps do anything which would moderate fallout later? Thus for me, forking out £170 on a Eurotunnel return that I can re-schedule anyway gives me an option that I might not have in 9 months time, for very little risk. For others, it's whether to book a flight now for next season vs leave it 'till there aren't any flight available. The same sort of risk/cost/benefit analysis you do when you're choosing insurance cover.
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Gordyjh wrote:
I don’t know why everyone is speculating on the likelihood of skiing in 6+ months when the picture is changing every 6+ days! Also I don’t understand why so many on here delight in being so gloomy - lighten up people! We’re lucky enough to enjoy the best pastime ever invented & we will again, probably next season.

I also get the feeling that the more “leftist” your inclination, the more Eeyoreish you’re likely to be. Why?...

Do you think posting here is intended to help? That's a rhetorical question - I'm just pointing out that you've missed the point, and you also posted so you're being inconsistent.

Personally I tend to play the game several moves ahead, which obviously means looking forward.
I like to know what's coming so I can get better results that those who don't.
It's not remotely gloomy, it's how to win.

As to your final question, I'm unsure how you know what "political" views people may have,
but it sounds like you think "forward planning" is "leftist", which is probably incorrect.
Many Tories, for example, left their party post-2016 precisely because of their ability to see what was coming.
They're not "leftist" by any metric, just competent.
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Some intersting discussions yesterday about the opening of holiday corridors with countries with low infection rates such as Greece and Germany allowing travel between them and others with high infection rates, such as France and UK entering similar agreements. But it is all just speculation.
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Further to what I posted earlier, it seems the Swiss border will also open with Austria on 15th June. Germany's current restrictions with several of its other neighbours look to expire this Friday, but I'm not sure if they are going to extend for a few more weeks. (That's how things happen over here – restrictions have an expiry date. If the date is not extended, the law simply expires. There is no song and dance, no argument or celebration.) German press will probably have more details.
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@philwig, if you don’t understand my point about “leftists” you probably don’t look at Twitter much! Forward planning is 1 thing, eg I’m booked on SOPiB21, but that shouldn’t mean the whole world’s in a mess, we’ll never ski again, the sky’s going to fall on our heads, the government is poo-poo, I want to worry myself into an early grave etc... Laughing

I don’t think I’ve missed the point, which is that the OP is a leading question inviting gloom & I can see no reason to believe that next season won’t happen as normal.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Gordyjh, @philwig, some people are planners. Others are reactors. (of course, there's lots in between) Then, there're just habit followers.

Planners tend to look ahead, far ahead. So they can be irritating to the rest of the population. They maybe right, or wrong. Still, others think of them as too (xxx) you fill in the blank. Almost all the "leftist" are planners. They plan for what they think is coming, a coming others may not share, or one that may not materialize. As society largely gets more and more liberal, planners who sees what's coming tend to be seen as "leftist". Especially for those who don't believe in what the "planner" see coming. Even more so for those who don't LIKE what the "planner" think is coming (see below).

Reactor in the extreme doesn't believe you can plan, period. They do as they see fit. Deep down though, many reactors tend to carry on, until they were rudely forced to change. So to others, and even to themselves, they seem to "have a plan", a plan of carrying on whatever they've been doing! They're really habit followers. Habit followers naturally prefer not to be jolted off their habit too much nor too often.

True reactors adopt and change. Habit followers want to get "back" to their routine instead. That's the difference.

Habit followers tend to be "conservatives". Reactors though, don't typically have a fixed left or right leaning. After all, true reactors adopt and change. They just don't waste their time planning for things that may not come.

Back to the matter in hand. We're not going "back" to what it was "normal". We'll however settle into a "new normal" where life goes on. Much to the chagrin of the habit followers. The planners maybe right on the change part, they may very well be wrong on the details though. Reactors? They won't bother to plan. They just do what comes naturally, when the time comes.

As for skiing holidays? We'll have skiing next season. But the "holiday" part is not too likely to be the same as before. I'm will to put a fivers on that. We can even share a few pints on the result come next spring, virtually at the minimum. Toofy Grin

Not a psychological thesis. Just random musing.Laughing
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I think it will definitely be possible to ski next year, but probably a different experience. Mainly due to need socially distance lift queues and limit gondolas to people from same household only, maybe cable cars wont be going. Social distancing in eating areas could be problem in busy half board accommodations. Pick somewhere with lots of drags/chairs, self catering, in low season
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Officially, the Aiguille du Midi cable car in Cham reopens at the weekend. This might give a taste of what's to come:
- Mandatory temperature checks before boarding
- About 40% of normal capacity
- A grid marked out on the floor, with everybody expected to be facing away from each other (?all facing outwards from the centre?)
- Mandatory mask wearing

https://www.ft.com/content/c7d59f52-8f86-11ea-9207-ace009a12028
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