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Club Med NOT refunding?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Mosha Marc, have you read @exx3001's link?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I had seen these and I believe it is completely irrelevant there. Please state your credentials if you have expertise I don't have.

1) It's the liability section and it means they don't take EXTRA legal responsibility on behalf of "third parties unconnected with the provision of services provided". They want to make sure you cannot claim compensation/reduction because other third parties (eg, restaurants, ski lifts) are not able to provide their service. In this context, the "ski area" just means where you actually ski and I don't see how this clause could cover the accomodation for which THEY are responsible.
2) They can put whatever they want in the contract. It doesn't give them the right to override an European Directive. Any clause that attempts to bypass the ED would be invalid.

This is also in the T&Cs:
"Travellers can terminate the contract without paying a cancellation fee and be fully reimbursed for payments made if one of
the essential elements of the package, other than the price, changes substantially. If, before the start of the package, the
professional responsible for the package cancels it, travellers may obtain a refund and compensation, if applicable."
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
maggi wrote:
@Mosha Marc, have you read @exx3001's link?


No, didn't see it.
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Read it. I notice it says

This document has not been formally adopted or endorsed by the European Commission. The views expressed in
this document are the views of the European Commission services and cannot be regarded as an official position of
the European Commission. The ultimate authority for interpreting EU law lies with the Court of Justice of the
European Union.
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@Mosha Marc, they haven't had a chance to formally adopt it, yet! I think that, in view of this document, Club Med Ts&Cs would deem to be unfair contract if it went to court. And every other large TO had paid up, as far as I can tell, so why should they be different?

(NB I'm not a lawyer or anything like! But it seems to me that they're going to have to pay up eventually so why be so churlish about it. The publicity is going to be very bad.)
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> The ultimate authority for interpreting EU law lies with the Court of Justice of the European Union.
Can't argue anything against that Smile. Club Med could go to the EU court of justice and try to explain why the experts at the European Commission services are completely mistaken about what is clearly written in the European Directive.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
This Club Med advert popped up on my Facebook feed. Perhaps you could comment on the post to keep them focused on sorting out this years mess:

https://www.facebook.com/167581479490/posts/10157955349329491/?d=n


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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
woodpecker wrote:
Most suppliers will have a force majeure clause, its not their fault that everything is shut down, this is why we have insurance, my advice for ski holidays to keep things easy:-

3. Pay a minimum of £100 on a credit card, anything purchased on credit leaves the credit provider jointly liable under section 75 of the credit consumer act


I believe that you are covered if you only pay 1p on a credit card but the total cost of the service/product is £100 or more regardless of how you pay the difference.
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With just south of £15k already spent on a "supra extended holiday" to Africa this summer, I'm kinda relying on Section 75...
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Restaurants are getting a lot of support from French govt - staff paid, taxes paid, utilities paid etc - maybe the same applies to Club Med. It's not a given that they'll go bust, but yeah - you'd rather a refund or an insurance claim, for sure.
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Hi All

We were due to be at Club Med Plagne 2100 on Sunday 15th March for a week. Obviously our trip also fell victim to CV and the Club Med resort and La Plagne closure.

We also received the same email from Club Med about being refunded to our Club Med accounts. Has anyone in the same boat actually received a refund back yet? If so how did you find out the refund had actually occurred?

Cheers
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
spyderjon wrote:
mrlossyman wrote:
........I would hope though that Club Med would refund like all other reputable companies......

Club Med are under no obligation to refund you. That is why you have holiday insurnance.


Surely it's why they should have insurnance?...except insurnance companies are weaseling out of this in every way possible and will ultimately put a number of SMEs to the wall.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
SnoodlesMcFlude wrote:
...except insurnance companies are weaseling out of this in every way possible and will ultimately put a number of SMEs to the wall.
If insurers are just strictly applying the contractual terms of their policies (and I don't think we've seen any evidence that they aren't) then we shouldn't complain.

Based on past experience, even insurance companies won't have priced in the possibility of cancellation of 25% of the season. Do you really want them to voluntarily pay non-contractual travel claims if it means they can't then cover contractual claims on things like house fires or car accidents? Which is better - SMEs going to the wall, or insurance companies going to the wall?

There is going to be a big economic cost to this, and over time we will all have to share it - whether through higher taxes, higher insurance premiums, or higher prices. Or all three.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
ecureuil wrote:
SnoodlesMcFlude wrote:
...except insurnance companies are weaseling out of this in every way possible and will ultimately put a number of SMEs to the wall.
If insurers are just strictly applying the contractual terms of their policies (and I don't think we've seen any evidence that they aren't) then we shouldn't complain.


I think what they're applying is a fairly weasely definition of what business interruption cover is. It's no doubt a term within their contracts somewhere, but probably one which many won't be able to test the legitimacy of in court
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Most business insurance doesn't cover for loss of business due to Government dictat or pandemic - mine doesn't and I've been in contact with a number of other retailers in the trade today and there's doesn't either.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Club Meds reply:

Due to the Coronavirus outbreak, we have been forced to close almost all our resorts around the world. Due to this, we are only offering credits on the value of the holidays affected by this closure. I would need to point out that it is not Club Med who have cancelled your holiday, but the respective Governments.

This credit will be logged on to your memberships in due course. This is the only option available at the moment.

With very best regards,
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@mrlossyman, but didn't they say that Club Med had made the decision in their original message?

By the sounds of that they have some cashflow worries, which isn't a complete surprise as many other companies are going to be in the same boat. EasyJet are currently offering very cheap flights for next winter which I suspect is a push to get some money into the business.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
SnoodlesMcFlude wrote:
@mrlossyman, but didn't they say that Club Med had made the decision in their original message?

By the sounds of that they have some cashflow worries, which isn't a complete surprise as many other companies are going to be in the same boat. EasyJet are currently offering very cheap flights for next winter which I suspect is a push to get some money into the business.


Yes I have written to them and they are saying they won't refund. Something is fishy, glad I paid on credit card and also have insurance!
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Some more information there: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ski/news/what-to-do-if-ski-holiday-has-been-cancelled-due-to-coronavirus/. Club Med gets a mention.
Looks like it will be section 75 for me as well. Although, I still strongly believe that the courts would grant you a refund if you were to go down this way.
Please remember previous advice given here and do NOT keep the credit in your account if you accept it. Make sure you rebook immediately for next year because there is no guarantee (yet) that this credit will be protected if Club Med goes bust.
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@exx3001, your telegraph link is behind a paywall. Perhaps you could copy and paste the section relevant to Club Med for the benefit of others here?
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@maggi. Deepest apologies, I wasn't aware of this and I assure you I am not a Telegraph reader. I am not sure why it did not block me as well. I cannot repost as this would be illegal and would possibly get this forum into trouble but I can probably summarize the Club Med part.
"Many Club Med customers have expressed their frustrations about the lack of communication from the all-inclusive operators over the past few days, those who have lost out on their holidays can expect compensation to be in the form of travel credit."
There is not much new information apart that it confirms that Club Med really intends to refuse refund. There is the statement that you should have seen already (https://www.clubmed.co.uk/coronavirus-precautionary-measures)
"Club Med is offering the following: the full amount paid will be credited back into their Club Med account which can be used on a future holiday for departures up until the 30th April 2021."
The interesting new bit for me was that everyone is struggling to get in touch with customer services, not just Club Med. Also, ABTA is trying to fight to get a refund in the form credits accepted ("It has been proposed that refund credits, in the form of a travel voucher for future travel for example, should be allowed as an acceptable alternative to cash refunds.") and, more importantly perhaps, protected.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@exx3001, no need to apologise and thank you.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
And two extras that should be of interest:
http://travelbulletin.co.uk/news-mainmenu/abta-releases-statement-on-customer-claims-refunds-during-covid-19
https://www.travelmole.com/news_feature.php?news_id=2041943

I have not been able to find this update from the European commision but this is what Abta claims:
"The European Commission is encouraging customers to accept credit notes for package holidays cancelled due to the coronavirus, as long as they can ask for a refund later if they don't use them." "Crucially the Commission states that the credit note should be covered by appropriate insolvency protection."

So it looks like we are kindly asked to help Club Med with their cash flow issues and to wait before we get the money back...
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Can anyone advise please - we have a holiday booked with Club Med for next season, booked about 6 weeks ago. Flights have only become available in the past week (EJ) and have now been added, but we are being asked to pay a further deposit for the flight/transfer element, around 10% of that extra cost. Having paid the original deposit via bank transfer, am I right in thinking if we pay the flights deposit with a credit card, the whole amount will be covered, as adding the travel makes it a package? £100 has been mentioned as the lowest amount at which that cover becomes applicable, but I see elsewhere that less than that triggers it? Confused..... TIA (We DO also have travel insurance)
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Appears many other are in the same boat. I wrote and asked they supply the address for my solicitor to write to them and they refused to give it, they have been rude in communications and in all honesty acted like rogue traders! In a way I hope they go bust (after I get my money of course).
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@Montana, Have you/will you have paid more than £150?

That's al you should have to pay at the moment - From their website

Quote:
Book early to get up to 15% and only pay a deposit of £150 pp.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Montana, if a single tour operator is arranging both the Club Med part and the flights for you, and you are making a single combined payment to them, then it might be a "package". But if you have arranged the flights independently from the Club Med booking, then I am not sure it is.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
ABTA say
Quote:
. package holiday can come in many different forms and can be sold in different ways – from a ‘ready-made’ package (where the different travel services are put together for you by the travel company and offered at a single price) to many tailor-made trips (for example where you select different services from a range offered before paying for them together). However, they will all have the same level of financial and legal protection.

A package holiday must cover a period of at least 24 hours or involve overnight accommodation and is a combination of at least two different types of travel services, which are listed below:
transport (such as a flight, coach or train but not transfers from an airport)
accommodation (such as a hotel, villa or apartment)
car rental
a tourist service (such as a tour guide or a trip to a historical attraction) where this is a significant part of the holiday, either because of its value or because it is an essential part of the trip.
It counts as a package holiday if your travel company:

Has asked you to pay a single price through a single payment
Has let you select a combination of services – such as a flight and accommodation – before you agreed to pay for them
Charged you an inclusive or total price for all the services you bought
Advertised or sold the travel services to you as a package or using a similar term
Sold you one travel service; and then transferred your details, including your payment details to another company, which you then booked another travel service through within the space of 24 hours.

https://www.abta.com/help-and-complaints/frequently-asked-questions/what-package-holiday

So it could be even without flights if skiing rental passes etc was coined as significant part of the holiday
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Thanks - to clarify, the original accommodation element was booked in early February, through an agent, paying that £150 pp deposit, via bank transfer. It then transpired that Agents are not permitted the £150 “low deposit” (which, for direct and agent bookings, is only applicable if you don’t cancel before balance due date - if you do, the difference between that and the usual 25%, becomes payable), and we had to top up the deposit to that 25% of the total, again by transfer. Easy Jet Flights then became available a week or so ago, to add to the booking, through Club Med. Having done so, we are now being asked for a deposit on the flights, of about 10% of THAT cost which will be around £70 (still not sure but expect confirmation by Monday, when that payment will be due). This will then be a ‘package’ for ABTA/ATOL purposes. However, given the situation everywhere, and the experience of the OP we’re wondering if payment of the flights deposit by CC will give us cover. We do have insurance. Thanks
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Mosha Marc wrote:
... Club Med T&C:

12. Liability
Under no circumstances can Club Med® be held responsible for circumstances of force majeure (referred to as "exceptional and
unavoidable circumstances”) due to third parties unconnected with the provision of services provided for in the Contract or
improper performance of the Contract attributable to the G.M®. In particular, it is recalled that in “Winter Sports Destination”
Resorts, Club Med® cannot be held responsible in case of the closure of the ski area due to exceptional and unavoidable
circumstances. The G.M® cannot therefore claim a price reduction or compensation of any kind.


My understanding of Force Majeure clauses is that they may act to void the contract, because neither side
could have reasonably anticipated such things. However that doesn't mean the supplier can simply retain
all the money, which would be absurd and unfair. To re-phrase something someone else said here:
"why should the supplier increase their profits at the expense of the client in that circumstance".
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I am sure a lot of Club Med customers have looked here. Has anyone decided to try to claim on their insurance, how have you progressed this?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I too am in the same position with Maeva.com - was supposed to also be going to Avoriaz. They gave a credit note, like above.

The 12.Liability in the preceding post relates to (I believe) compensation for inconvenience, not the original amount paid. I say this because I saw the same clause with Jet2 but they were a a good sort and just refunded my money - clearly I didn't want compensation for inconvenience since it wasn't their fault (would not have got it anyhow). All credit (excuse the pun) to Jet2 and their tegridy (sp.) Happy

That said, I have raised a section 75 claim with Barclaycard for the French company maeva. I am hoping that will come through. Worst case I'll use it next year, however I'm not sure I want to take the risk of them going pop in the coming months (hope not but ...).
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