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 Poster: A snowHead
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@Moss, @ski, I had no idea the Meidjo binding had an "alpine mode" with the heel piece, I like the concept as it can tour with low tech pins, has brakes and a rudimentary release plus being laterally stiff and more flexible than NTN fore aft. Long term if I decide tele is for me I would most likely go down this route but new boots and binders is a big commitment at this point (my old setup sat collecting dust for 11 years Wink ). I have 75mm, touring and alpine boots and not sure can justify another pair Smile BUT having a single set of skis/boots/skins that can do everything is very tempting...

How do you find they ski in pure alpine mode? If I was abroad with clients I could see using your setup for teaching alpine and then with a flick of a switch be able to have fun and practice tele in my off time.

also, you mention you have both G3 and 7TM. what differences do you notice in how they ski?
what skis do you have with your 7TM binders?

@ski I noticed Jaz was on the Meidjo but guessing is a sponsored athlete and gets freebies. Good to hear about the lateral stiffness, an important consideration for me. also noticed she was on Scarpa boots and not the WC Crispi ones, did she mention boots at all?
Any thoughts on what would be the stiffest 2 pin NTN boots?
I am assuming that 2 pin will work with Rottefella rental NTN binders ?

It would seem to me that the Meidjo binding is superior to NTN and I have read a few horror stories about lack of release on the NTNs.
I have discounted Bomber as US based and potential support issues.. They do look bullet proof but the Meidjo is for me clearly better and if I bin my 75mm boots will go with Meidjo, good shout.

Hammerheads/Vices vs 7TM - for me having some form of release is fairly essential, brakes are handy as well for piste skiing..
found some older 7TM's without the bigger spring for €159 which is tempting and will be slightly less active than the ones i hired...

My option 3 would not involve having to buy new boots and I am still contemplating as a lower cost commitment to get a full tele setup.
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Here’s some food for thought, with my setup for a combination of Alpine; Dynafit & NTN-tele bindings…

I’d previously been teleing on 7TM 75mm bindings, but last year swapped to NTN with the 22Designs Outlaw-X & Scarpa TX-Pro tele-boots.

However, the holy grail as far as I was concerned (with the weight restrictions for flying with kit for different disciplines) was to have one ski QKed for multiple bindings so I could just carry different boots/bindings and swap as required

So I now have a pair of skis QKed for 1:Alpine, 2:Dynafit AT (Plum), 3:NTN-tele (Outlaw-X ... needed to mount using a riser with captive-nuts due to a slight hole overlap: I can go into more detail if you're interested... Madeye-Smiley )



In addition, the even holier holy-grail has been to use a single boot for skiing with both the NTN & Tech bindings

If you’re hoping to use the Meidjo with low-tech heels, as mentioned earlier only Crispi still do Tech heel inserts in NTN boots– the earlier TX-Pros did have the inserts, but the ones I got last year no longer had them. (see this article for the reason why https://www.earnyourturns.com/33505/scarpa-scott-drop-heel-inserts-on-ntn-boots/ )

However I picked up a set of tech inserts from Jon Coster (thanks Jon) and retro fitted them to the TX-Pros, with the requirement to shim under the bellows to prevent boot-flex solved using a sliding AFD plate from an old pair of Salomon bindings. I can report they skiid perfectly in the couloirs off the Verdons Sud in La Plagne last week… snowHead



I use a dedicated lighweight touring rig for specific alpine touring weeks, but the above setup gives the option for teleing and skiing alpine & occcasional short tours in AT mode when resort based, allowing me to fly with just one-ski; one-boot & 2 bindings
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@geoffers, good food for thought... I am curious as to why you didn't go with Meidjo / Crispi last year when you swapped over from 75mm and 7TM?

Your set up looks cool but if I am reading all the information correctly that would give an "off the shelf" similar solution to what you have..

ps I really like plum guides but am seriously tempted by the Shifts for my new touring (with AT boots) and all mountain setup (with alpine race boots)
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@skimottaret,
Quote:
I am curious as to why you didn't go with Meidjo / Crispi ...
Mainly a price thing I think (and I hadn't considered the tech heel solution at the time) - I got good end-of-season deals on the boots (AlpinStore) & bindings (Sport Conrad), plus I liked the reviews of the Outlaws etc...
Quote:
....gives an "off the shelf" similar solution to what you have..
The meidjo plus tech-heel solution is always there if you want to lock your heels when teleing (mine needs a complete swap of bindings) - however the NTN setup is so solid that you can ski alpine-turns in reasonably steep & deep conditions without really needing the heels locked.
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@geoffers, cool, there are so many options with this stuff and I think I need to think it through a bit. Good to know that the NTN stuff is solid enough to alpine on in soft snow. I haven't quite got that far yet with my skill level Wink

Do the Outlaws release in a fall, I am majorly concerned with this. My cable bindings came off once in a twisting fall and didnt on an over the handlebars high side which broke the skis but not me...

To be honest if I was going to do any skinning I couldn't see doing it on tele gear so my Shifts with AT boots will probably work out fine. Need to consider how important the heel tech piece will be but I like the sound of the Crispi boots as they are stiff. I very much prefer a stiff boot...

Reading on another forum on the alpine heel option for Meidjo "The Rando heel is only made for help the skier go down when he is tired. The spring Din is about 3/4 (30 to 40 kg), and can not be compared to a ski touring heel whose springs are much more powerful." So kinda pointless as far as I am concerned so gives more options when looking at boots..
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@geoffers, Wow .. that looks fun Very Happy I bow to your geekiness Very Happy

@skimottaret, Rottefella Freeride, Freedom and 22D Outlaw all have an NTN (underboot, second heel) attachment. This will release at some point, but is not DIN certified. The Meidjo and 22D Lynx have this and a Low Tech toe piece which will also have a release -- again not DIN certified.

As far as the Meidjo skis, Jaz was very positive, because the toe is held really firmly (more that the Freeride). Jaz wants to win, if the Meidjo was not as good as the Freeride she would not use it. Actually it's better. She's going to have a go on my Outlaws tomorrow so will report back on what she thinks.

As far as an Alpine heel goes. WHAT ARE YOU THINKING OF !!!!!!

I can certainly ski Alpine to a reasonably high level on Outlaws, certainly good enough for demos to recreational skiers (we've been doing Central Theme all week remember).

I think (assuming the spacing works out) QKs for Shifts and Meidjos or Outlaws, with new boots (sorry) is the way to go....
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@ski,
Quote:
...(assuming the spacing works out) QKs for Shifts and Meidjos or Outlaws...

Even if the hole spacings do clash, there's always a way.... snowHead
2 of my Outlaw holes (blue) clashed with existing QK holes (yellow)



So I used some 8mm HDPE breadboard as a riser plate with captive nuts, and used 3 of the existing QKs either side of these to screw the plate to the ski. The other 4 Outlaw holes were OK to screw through the plate into QKs in the ski. Possibly a stronger mount as I've actually got 7 screws mounting the binding to the ski rather than 6 Toofy Grin



Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 28-04-19 15:49; edited 3 times in total
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@ski, Forgot you are still skiing, hope the weather is getting better Smile Yeah I a pretty convinced that if I decide on new boots will go with Meidjo and I am sure you are right that she is using the best gear for her. Be cool to hear her opinion on the 22 designs, also could you ask her about boots I am curious why she isn't on the Crispi's given how hard she skis..

I am getting clearer on the fact that the NTNs release, to be honest it isn't that obvious when you look at them, I guess the mfg's dont talk about release much as they are not DIN. I have read some bad things re the rottefellas and like the bombproof look of the Outlaws. Meidjo or Outlaws look good and worth considering.

Yeah as above the alpine heel tech option isn't that attractive Smile what was i thinking Toofy Grin

" think (assuming the spacing works out) QKs for Shifts and Meidjos or Outlaws, with new boots (sorry) is the way to go...." still of mixed mind to change boots at this point but a pair of stiffish Crispi WC boots look a better solution and possibly may work out for AT as well. My dynafit Titans are 8 years old and not very stiff

am looking at a pair of 7TM's and some second hand skis to get me back in the game cheaply , then go all in for new boots/bindings but am worried that like @moss I would never use em if I upgraded so may make sense to go all in..
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@geoffers, I thought that was what the spacer was for, I did something similar 12 years ago with a VIST interchange plate which I could swap between tele and alpine binders. It worked out but was quite heavy and complex and I didnt get the use out of it as I thought I would.

I do like the idea of possibly being able to use the Crispis with shift bindings for AT as well as Tele on Meidjos. That way One ski/ One boot for tele and AT and for my off piste focussed set up and bin the Titan AT boots..

Will the crispi's work with Shifts or is this a dumb idea?
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@skimottaret,
Quote:
Will the crispi's work with Shifts or is this a dumb idea?

The big problem with bellowed boots used in Alpine bindings is that they flex in the middle and effectively shorten, which could cause pre-release at the heel. Hence the need for a shim under the bellows.

Whether or not the Shift AFD plate would work effectively as a shim is an unknown - I guess the manufacturer wouldn't recommend it for reasons of potential litigation Skullie , but that's how I got over the bellow flex in my set up so I guess it would be up to you...
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Have looked at the mounting templates to see if putting two sets of QK holes for Meidjo and Shift as was worried that the ski would be like swiss cheese and risk pull out. @spyderjon in his usual extremely helpful manner had a look as well and would NOT recommend for me as I am hard on gear , heavy with long boots and thought the forces involved and the closeness of the mounting holes wouldn't work out so my Option 3 is not so cunning after all...

Gonna go with two pairs of skis Touring and Tele with dedicated skis/ binders but will QK to improve surface area and avoid pull outs. Just bought a pair of Kastle MX84's and will whack tele binders on those bad boys.

@ski I have decided to chuck the old 75mm boots as you suggested and will invest in new two pin NTN's so now down to picking a binding Meidjo or Outlaws. Leaning towards the Meidjo as the reading I have done seems to indicate a smoother active flex, stiffer laterally, brake option and with toe pins will tour loads better if I ever get to the standard of trusting myself off piste on tele gear Laughing

Hope week two has started well !
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Jaz liked my Outlaws, but reckoned Meidjos ski better. The Tech Toe gives a stronger hold, so better edge control. The Outlaw is true step in, and has a tour mode too. I think both are about as robust as each other. If you are thinking of changing to Crispi boots, suggest you try to test them first, as they ski differently to Scarpa. The sun came out at last today, so we could actually see what we have been skiing on. Smile
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@ski, Cheers, I had pretty much decided on Meidjo's but that sealed the deal. Tried on some Scott Voodoo's (horribly soft plastic and poor fit for me) and Scarpa Tx Pros which fit great. Getting closer to actually having a new setup Smile

@geoffers, If you could advise on how much agro it was in adding the rear tech insert? I am very tempted to go with the Scarpas as I think at my stage of tele they will be better for me than the Crispi's as per Ski's suggestion. I might get a pair of Crispi to check fit and see if they would be okay as an AT boot when used with Shift binders.

Does anyone know if shifts will actually work with 2-pin NTN boots?
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You know it makes sense.
@skimottaret, I think @geoffers, has some good thoughts on an alpine heel. I don't think tele boots would replace a dedicated alpine touring boot -- they will be too soft.

You will find with an NTN binding that if you wind the springs up, the heel hold is almost Alpine any way ,as in I can carve either in Tele or Parallel with not much difficulty. Jump turns on the steeps if needed are quite managable too (on Hammerheads, Superloops and NTN)

Also, depending on the touring you want to do, boot crampons will fit much better on an alpine (rigid) sole than a tele boot. It's definitely not fun to have on come off when scrambling up to that peak that you saw from the pass.
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@ski, cool, Having thought about it further I think trying to have a cross over solution with 2pin NTN Crispi as AT boots is going to always be a compromise that will be too stiff for my telemarking level and not stiff enough for the down bit of AT. Gonna forgo all the tinkering and get the Scarpas which I know fit great, will Tele well and have a tele dedicated set up. Appreciate all the patient advice.. You got me there in the end Wink

Right, back to Bartletts to buy the Scarpas and Meidjos Smile Then back into full geek mode on finding stiff AT boots and putting toe tech inserts on my Race boots

Bon chance for tomorrow..
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 Poster: A snowHead
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@skimottaret,
Quote:
If you could advise on how much agro it was in adding the rear tech insert?

It was pretty easy for me using my router mounted in a "Woodrat" overhead-routing jig.



I made a boot-holder from an old pin-tech toe binding with some screws at the heel which held it at the same height as the tech heel-pins, then mounted it square & vertical in the Woodrat to cut the vertical & horizontal cuts. The small diaganol cuts were done with a Stanley knife & chisel, and tidied up with a piece of hot wire (couldn't be ar$ed to adjust the jig to cut the diagonals)

I'm sure it would be possible to knock up something suitable if you have a router (every Man needs a router Toofy Grin )

Quote:
I don't think tele boots would replace a dedicated alpine touring boot -- they will be too soft

I was pleased with how the TxPros skid in Alpine mode in the tech bindings - my alpine Touring boots are Scarpa Maestrales and TBQH I didn't notice that much difference (skiing the couloirs on the Verdons Sud in Champagny plus the classic Bellecote North Face route last week). I prefer a softer boot anyway, but there's plenty of lateral support and in o/p conditions the soft boot is fine - I only occasionally notice the softer forward flex skiing aggresively in bumpy terrain, but can live with that
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@skimottaret "also, you mention you have both G3 and 7TM. what differences do you notice in how they ski?
what skis do you have with your 7TM binders? "

There's a slight difference but not massive - the G3 Targa bindings are on an old pair of Rossi Bandit X, the 7TMs I switch between B1s and B2s. Difficult to do a direct comparison as they are also on different skis. I did put QKs in some B3s but hardly used them (perhaps my technique was at fault but it felt the width of the ski was too much to engage the edge on piste).

Just for you I (of course) skied the G3 targa/bandit x at Chill Factore the other evening and really enjoyed it. Yes, there is a touch more delicacy and balance about the movement, the meidjos give more active resistance and feel more precise (I've got both sets of springs fitted so they give more active resistance), but another variable is the boot - my 75mm boots are 3 buckle garmonts, whereas the Crispi evo wc are much stiffer.

I was pleasantly surprised on the G3s though; I thought there would be a lot less control, but had real fun on them. More testing and comparison required Very Happy
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@geoffers, Very good engineering work there but I am always a bit nervous doing that level of mods to boots and binders but great to know it is possible should I go with the Tx boots... thanks for sharing...

Second guessing myself a little in terms of boots I thought as I am very new to tele and a fairly powerful alpine skier the idea of having a pair of boots i can use with my tele setup and touring setup (Shifts/Legend 88's/Crampons/skins) and future proofing for the alpine heel option is too cool not to try out. As I won't really have known much difference in feel between types of tele binders/boot combos with my lack of experience I will hopefully be able to adjust to suit the equipment. I am in no big rush so ordered a pair of Crispi WC boots to try out and directly compare to the Scarpas. I "think" that with the ability to finely adjust the level of active flex on the binders that I can come up with a softer feeling set up to start with and crank up as I get more proficient on telemark so the lure of a stiffer boot is still there. Fingers crossed they fit, if not return and go with TX Pros's

Good to hear the scarpas are laterally stiff, my dynafit titans suck in terms of lateral stiffness and give me knee problems when skiing hard pack or wider skis. I have been in 150 flex plug boots for 10 years now and struggle in soft boots...

@Moss, Many thanks for pointing out the heel unit option, I ordered the Meidjo 2.1, brakes and Red springs in case I wanna stiffen em up. I will get Jon to QK my new Kastles MX84's for the 2.1 binders and heel unit to future proof em should I decide to get the heel piece later. £210 was pretty steep so gonna hold on heel bit for a while..

cheers for testing out the differences on the 7TMs vs the G3s but got up sold on this thread and now an NTN man Smile Great to hear the Meidjos feel precise, that was definitely lacking on my 75mm setup and felt very sloppy to me.

Looking forward to putting on the Crispi boots, hopefully they fit and if not can whack in some ZipFits but we shall see...

More tele geekery to go Toofy Grin Toofy Grin
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@ski, Got my badge through today, hopefully a good omen for you in Tux snowHead
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@skimott do you find that zipfit work well in tele boots? Which ones do you use? My intuitions are toast and need replacing.

On bindings, I haven't been through the whole thread but my take is this. 75mm is dead. For resort and occasional sidecountry: outlaw X wins hands down.
For out and out touring I use a tts variant. I have a few different versions but I like them because they are simple, don't break and for long uphill I can take the heel pieces off which takes the binding weight down to about 250g per ski. They also release (not DIN but would come off in an avalanche). My current TTS uses the same mount as the outlaw so I can go back and forth with inserts.

I do think that the lynx looks good as an off the peg tech option. Early versions of the Meidjo binding put me off. There was not enough travel in the springs so when they bottomed out something had to break. From what I can tell this has been remedied by beefing things up and putting even more screws into the ski (!) but they are not for me.
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@BenA, I haven't tried yet but will test out putting in Zipfits after I finally decide on which tele boot and purchase em.. I have used Zipfit Garas in my Dynafit Titans for a few years now and find they help with foot fit and work fine for touring but don't know if they would hold up in telemark mode with all the bending in the toe box. I take mine in and out of my race boots daily and they held up well for several seasons.

My reading on Meidjo is that now in the third gen (2.1) they are stable and have addressed all the known issues so I went with them. Was considering Outlaw but felt Meidjo offered a few more benefits to me...
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@Moss,
Quote:
based, so far on a few days in the Alps and several trips to Chill Factore

Are you planning to go to the Tele Festival/Champs at Chill Factore the end of June http://www.mccsc.org.uk/pages/events.htm ?
Friends ski there regularly so I'm planning to head up this year
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@BenA,
Quote:

do you find that zipfit work well in tele boots


Did not work well for me --- mucked up the flex of the boot (TX-Comp) too much.

@skimottaret, Yup all OK here, passed. Next stop L3 Very Happy
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@ski, good to know zip fits aren't a great option. I was thinking if the Crispis are too big I would whack in some zipfits but probably best to go with the best fitting boot !

Nice one on your L2 snowHead snowHead snowHead
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geoffers wrote:
@Moss,
Are you planning to go to the Tele Festival/Champs at Chill Factore the end of June http://www.mccsc.org.uk/pages/events.htm ?
Friends ski there regularly so I'm planning to head up this year


Yes - hopefully see you there, should be good fun. Anyone else thinking of doing it, I would recommend - and there's an 'early bird discount' if you book before the end of May.
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@Moss,
Quote:
...hopefully see you there...

Weekend all booked up now - I'm staying in the Premier Inn Fri/Sat nights: over the road from Chill Factore so have got a spare bed in the room if anyone wants to share costs
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Went to Telemark Only at Schilthorn, Muerren, Switzerland last weekend. Brilliant event over 4 days skiing and daily apres ski apero included.
Although last day snow stormed out and mountain shut. So skinned up to find 40cm fresh snow. Just great!!
Multiple ski/ binding set ups to test. Approx 350 skiers of all nationalities and standards.
https://telemark-only.com/en/Info/Welcome

Phillipe, M equipment, was there and had dinner with him one night. Amazingly he was a snowboarder and as an engineer, decided to design a telemark binding, so learnt to telemark.

Anyway, I have M2.1, fitted last November to Elan Ripstick 96. Great combination, and Scott Voodoo boots. I asked Phillipe about the heel fitting and he said to put the inserts into the back of the boots where there is black insert.
Also indicated he was working on a new binding.

I put more teflon tape on the ski in place of the small piece supplied. Also put it on the ridged "snow cutter". Used by catering industry for vacuum sealers and sold on eBay - £3/metre.

M2.1 has 2 spring system unlike many/all others. The forward pressure springs and a small spring to release the rear boot grips, DIN settings.

I've now skied 16 weeks on the set up and used alpine jump turns on steep narrow sections without issue. Also did the Mürren Inferno on M2.1/Elan.

Next event:
https://mobile.facebook.com/pg/FONNATelemarkCamp2019/about/?ref=page_internal&mt_nav=0
Midnight sun skiing 21-24 June on Fonna glacier.

Might try to get to Manchester.

Then GB Championships in Alps 11-23 Jan 2020. Simply brilliant event, the best instruction out there for all levels and very reasonable cost - approx £900 for full board, lift pass, 6+ days instruction from complete novice to world cup team and candidates. Transport extra. You won't be disappointed. And a chance for anyone to win a GB Championships medal!!
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
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Quote:

I put more teflon tape on the ski in place of the small piece supplied. Also put it on the ridged "snow cutter". Used by catering industry for vacuum sealers and sold on eBay - £3/metre.


Can you put up a photo? I have read a bit about people sticking tape on but cant get my head around it...
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You know it makes sense.
Here is pic:




And this is what I bought:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vacuum-sealer-Packer-PTFE-Self-Adhesive-Teflon-Tape-50mm-Wide-Incl-VAT/283059162207?hash=item41e7a40c5f:m:m2hbJMvXIlqXJqmv2i0znvQ


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sun 12-05-19 14:47; edited 2 times in total
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Thanks , my new binders turning up next week and will apply as per your setup... not planning on any touring but good to know..
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Snow will get trapped underneath the binding in normal telemarking, especially if is damp/wet snow. Not just when touring.
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ahh of course, what am I thinking. My third generation bindings still need to add some duct tape to make em work. Gotta love telemarking. Toofy Grin

Thanks for the link, have ordered a bit.
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Right so getting closer, Crispi boots didnt fit at all, for future readers I have a narrow low volume foot and the Crispi's were the highest volume boot I tried on and had an almost straight heel pocket. my heel lifted up and off the footbed with barely any movement. Also found the strap/buckly across the top of the foot uncomfortable and crushed my instep. If you are considering this boot make sure to try em on...

Ended up buying the Scarpa's at Bartletts and had the stock liners heat moulded with some old footbeds. Great fit and has an unusual option with the ability to set / adjust the forward lean when in ski mode. I prefer a fairly upright boot so will play around with this.

@colinstone, taped up the snow cutter and will get the Meidjo's installed shortly and taped up as per your helpful photo.
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@skimottaret, I think you'll need to test them at Hemel wink
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@ski, definitely,,, should have em all sorted in a few weeks and will let you know.. Be cool to get a little tele club going again
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@skimottaret,
Quote:

Be cool to get a little tele club going again


My thoughts exactly Very Happy
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Hi ... are there any meets or events planned for Hemel ?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@limegreen1, Not just now... When @skimottaret, has his new skis sorted we'll arrange something. I have some skis I need to get to Hemel so if you fancied a session sooner?
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Im back mid June so will keep in touch ... Looking forward to getting back to it after missing two seasons !
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