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Damaged Hire Skis

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hello.

I've just come back from a holiday in Avoriaz, France. My son (16 Good skier, into freestyle) uses hire skis which we hired from Skiset for 10 days. We've been going to Avoriaz for the last 10yrs and have always hired my son's skis and always used Skiset albeit the previous 9 hires were from a different Skiset in the resort. We've never had any issues and I trust them.
Now this time my son was given the top level hire which were Atomic Punx 5 skis which I understand are a few years old.
After 10 days of skiing with no issues somewhere in between myself and my son doing our last run of the holiday and returning to the apartment at the end (I didnt wait for him and got home 3mins before him) of one of my son's skis had split and the metal(?) core at the tip wasn't there like it had broken away. Instead of the end of the ski angling up, the bottom layer was now angling down. Now i dont ski but I don't see how he could have skied with the skis like this so can't imagine that it had happened earlier and for some reason he was hiding this but equally I can't imagine how it happened at all. My son claims to have only noticed it as he arrived back at the apartment so how it has happened is a mystery. The guy in the ski shop was implying he must have know about it as it would have taken a hit with a hammer to cause the damage.
So as we didn't take insurance they wanted the €300 to cover the irreparable skis. I eventually settled on €150 but feel aggrieved because I have been a very good customer to Skiset for the last 10 years but I'm at a loss to explain the damage and am now wondering if even they had been previously repaired.
I dont feel that ive been treated too well. I appreciate that we have somehow returned with a broken ski. I'm trusting them that it is indeed irreparable but I don't know how it's happened. If a ski has a life of 25 rentals (making this up) were we the unlucky 26th on which it just disintegrated? On that basis is it fair that they then demand a payment from me? How would we ever know if a ski has been previously repaired?
Just looking for views and feedback please. It's left a bitter taste.

Thanks.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Difficult to know without being there/seeing the damage, could be a delamination because of water ingress (i.e not your fault) or son could have smacked them on a box at some point and didn't want to let on.
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Welcome to snowHeads. I would just shout at a manager until they give up. Send Skiset as much bad feedback as you can find on social media. What you are describing isn't clear but it sounds like delamination. That is a manufacturing fault. You couldn't do it with a hammer.
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Hi Snoodles. That was my first thought and I've questioned him about it and can't get my head around how it could have just happened without him knowing but that is what he says. In his defence, as I said I can't see that he could have used them as they were so as unlikely as it seems I'm not ruling out that perhaps through water ingress or whatever cause they could potentially have just split as we finished. It's just got me thinking how you have no history of the skis that you are hiring and no insight in to their age or previous use and it could be that whoever is the unlucky one who hires them as they pass their terminal use threshold then has to end up being financially punished unfairly for this.


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 17-04-19 21:27; edited 1 time in total
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Hi Thornyhill. Yes delamination would appear to describe it perfectly.
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The twice I have delaminated skis the hire shop has just replaced them without question. Once in Kaprun in the 80s & once in Vail in the noughties. I believe it to be a fault in manufacturing & I would argue with the hire shop.
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@Tudes24, Did you take any pictures and can you clarify 2 points which don't seem to make sense to me. If the tip metal was bent back I don't see how they could be skied on, hence asking for a picture! Otherwise I'm thinking did they take a bash on the walk home, or someone else smashed them outside a bar onto tarmac??? Sounds very strange.

Quote:
Now i dont ski


and

Quote:
somewhere in between myself and my son doing our last run of the holiday


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 17-04-19 22:12; edited 1 time in total
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@kitenski, now, i dont ski.... boarder?
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@kitenski, boarder - I was going to ask the same question on first read TBH
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@kitenski, I read it that he must be a boarder from the OP.
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Hello, yes I snowboard and have never skied and know nothing about skiing. Sorry back home now so no pictures however this (https://thumbs.newschoolers.com/index.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.nscdn.com%2Fuploads%2Fmember%2Fpictures%2F1145143191delam%25201.JPG&size=400x1000) is a pretty good likeness except I believe the middle "metal" bit was missing. It looked like there were 2 laminates not 3 however round the sides leading to the tip you could see the 3 laminates. It is strange which is why its vexing me.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
They legged you over with an old ski that was probably on its last legs. Skiset is a franchise network so no skin in the game for loyalty elsewhere. Count yourself lucky you haggled them down and write it off as a lesson but take every opportunity to badmouth skiset and the specific store.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, That sounds a bit sarcastic. Just sayin'
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Thornyhill, harsh but probably fair...not sarcastic at all
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Thornyhill wrote:
@Dave of the Marmottes, That sounds a bit sarcastic. Just sayin'


It is a bit... BUT Travel insurance might cover it, depending on any excess... I hope @Tudes24 kept receipts?
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Thornyhill wrote:
@Dave of the Marmottes, That sounds a bit sarcastic. Just sayin'


Yeah not meant to be sarcastic. Skiset has a long and proud history of being badmouthed on this site including in a rare break from his usually shamanistic silence da boss himself. There's a story here about juicy backhanders offered rather than bothering to fix shabby service.

https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=3075824&highlight=skiset#3075824
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Tudes24, when you day you "hired from Skiset" do you mean you booked online with them? They're mostly just an online broker I think.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Nope big ski franchise @sugarmoma666,
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Yes i got a receipt. I've yet to check but would imagine my insurance excess is at least the £150 so that won't help unfortunately. They are ultimately the losers here as I told them in the shop. We've been hiring skis for 10 years but after this its over. I'll get my son his own pair now.

Thanks for all of the replies.
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I'm not a fan of Skiset stores.....had several bad experiences over the years. This season (for ease of travel) I paid top dollar for a premium all-mountain rental ski for myself and a rental snowboard for my lad from a Skiset store attached to our hotel.

The stuff they initially tried to palm us off with was dire quality. I complained and instead got offered a pair of Rossi Sky7HD in new condition mysteriously from the back of the store (which I loved). My lads aged Rossi rental board he was given had bindings that wouldn't adjust. After the ski tech tried chiselling the baseplate locking mechanism apart with hammer/screwdriver he eventually caved in and gave my son a newer and much better board.

If I had just sucked it up when offered the crap gear we would have been seen off as a couple of mugs.

We are taking our own gear with us again next time, never renting again.
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It's difficult without seeing the skis to be accurate in any assessment, but from your own description my first thought would be impact directly to the end of the ski, ie toward the binding.
If I had to produce the described damage that's how I'd start it with an almost certain outcome of splitting the layers of structure apart. Ordinarily they've had some type of protection particularly on tails of skis, and used to often have tips too with some level of capping to mitigate things like this. That seems to be less so on most current skis.
It amazes me that I see people walking and using the skis vertically like a walking pole and thumping them on hard surfaces, it just makes my wince at how they are treated some times.

Certainly I don't know your son and wouldn't like to offer a view as to culpability, but sometimes it's just not appreciated that something like a ski that is so strong and resilient in many respects has a vulnerability in ones simple plane of load.

Without evidence to the contrary, I'd lean toward the shop view of damage inflicted by user.

It's not a small sum to be asked to pay out in these circumstances and certainly I'd not like it. But a pragmatic view could be that £150 over ten years is equivalent to £15 year and onto less than two pounds a day for insurance during your entire use. it's still the same loss to you but perhaps just a little more reasoned.
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We've rented from a number of ski set stores and never had problems, guess there's an element of luck to it.

Having read the stories on their policies and attempt to bribe SH, I won't be using them again and most certainly will be warning anyone to stay away from them.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
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The quality of all rental shops (they are all franchises) is so variable and down to the individual owners of the shop you are using.

My local Skiset is the best rental shop I know of. They have given all of my guests top level new or nearly new kit and they are always willing to help with problems. For the sake of about €2 a day, the insurance is always worth having.
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Tudes24 wrote:
Hello, yes I snowboard and have never skied and know nothing about skiing. Sorry back home now so no pictures however this (https://thumbs.newschoolers.com/index.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.nscdn.com%2Fuploads%2Fmember%2Fpictures%2F1145143191delam%25201.JPG&size=400x1000) is a pretty good likeness except I believe the middle "metal" bit was missing. It looked like there were 2 laminates not 3 however round the sides leading to the tip you could see the 3 laminates. It is strange which is why its vexing me.


Fixed the image for ya..

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You rented skis and returned them damaged. You dont know how the damage occurred - but you said you couldnt ski on them - so the damage occurred after skiing - or during skiing involving a walk back. You didnt take any pictures of the damage- so everyone is guessing as to the cause. It could be a repair defect, or they could have been wrapped round a pole.

The rental contract specifies the terms and conditions of the rent. If you are unhappy about the replacement cost - you can choose to reduce the cost by buying shop insurance - or buying your own. You have negotiated the replacement cost down to 150e from 300e

I'm not sure there's much more discussion to this - other than someone knows how the damage happened. If they were on my feet when that happened - or i was carrying them - then i'd know about it.
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Now you've paid up and come home, I don't think you'll get any joy. Apart from satisfaction of warning others on social media

They are a franchise and there are good ones and bad ones - I've used the SkiSet in Vallandry for 18 years and never had a problem, even when we lost a pair of skis! For a small amount I do take out their insurance however which I think is worth it for peace of mind
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
First of all, those skis were worth 300 euro new, at full retail price! I doubt the shop paid more than 100 for them in the first place! Palming them off as "premium" even in the first season is shady.
Secondly, while there's a chance your son damaged them, there's an equal chance the skis delaminated and put him at risk. I would be fuming at that!
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Thanks for all of the replies.
In summary are we leaning to the possibilty that the skis could have delaminated or are we suspecting that the damage was more likely to have been created by my son in the 100metres of flat between where I saw him skiing last and returning to the apartment?

Not asking for your judgements on my son and his propensity to smash something. Think of it as if you were the perfect ski rental company. Would you accept that this could have been genuine equipment failure or are you discounting this in favour of the damage being inflicted?

Thanks for fixing the picture. As stated, whilst that picture isnt the actual skis it does basically represent the state of the skis.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Delamination could have been a manufacturing fault, or could equally have been caused by water ingress which in turn was caused by much less dramatic damage. E.g. a knock to the ski side wall that caused it to start to open up could then worsen dramatically during use. The initial damage might have happened much earlier. It's impossible to say with certainty whether this was caused by manufacturing damage, your son, or someone else. If the shop owner is honest and they know they weren't damaged already when they handed them out (not the sort of delamination you show in the photo, but damage to a side wall) then I can see why they would think the most likely cause is mishandling rather than manufacturing - they will see lots of customers treat skis badly and then try to return them. But if the shop owner is not honest and handed them out already damaged then they could be trying to rip you off. We can't be sure either way.
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@sugardaddy, yes, well, uh-huh... that's the rental business. The mass market chains are renting out kit that is not the same as retail, purchased way below retail, because otherwise the model just doesn't work. Live with it or don't go skiing unless you buy your own kit.

@Tudes24, It is entirely possible that your son could have hit something that caused the delam and didn't even notice. In any case, while I am sympathetic, it's kind of over and done with...

SkiSet are, as mentioned, a franchised brand - so, in general - you get as many loyalty points as you do at McD's or KFC.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
sugardaddy wrote:

Secondly.... there's an equal chance the skis delaminated and put him at risk. I would be fuming at that!


I think this is the approach you needed to take when returning the skis - if you go back to shop with this viewpoint then I think they're more likely to just try and get you out of the shop without any fuss. If you go in with the attitude of 'not sure how this happened' then they will sniff weakness and probably look to get as much out of you as possible.

It's just human nature.

(on our last ski trip, the car hire man suggested he might have to charge us for some wheel scrapes, which we hadn't done. My normally calm and passive girlfriend went absolutely nuts at him (it had been a stressful day). Needless to say, he not only didn't charge us, he became very apologetic and just looked to get us out of there as quickly as possible!!).
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Tudes24 wrote:
Thanks for all of the replies.
In summary are we leaning to the possibilty that the skis could have delaminated or are we suspecting that the damage was more likely to have been created by my son in the 100metres of flat between where I saw him skiing last and returning to the apartment?


If I was the perfect ski rental business I'd have staff who on eyeballing a ski could tell the difference between impact damage and fair wear n tear/ manufacturing defect and woudl be honest enough to give the benfit of doubt to the customer if it was on the line. Given your facts I find it implausible that a ski would suddenly delam in the last 100m of its use but equally I don't know your son. It's also perfectly plausible to me, having been a dopey male teen myself, that a teen wouldn't notice something like that until it was specifcially pointed out so the damage could have occurred hours or days earlier whether by impact or materials failure.


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 18-04-19 17:25; edited 1 time in total
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Handy Turnip wrote:
(on our last ski trip, the car hire man suggested he might have to charge us for some wheel scrapes, which we hadn't done. My normally calm and passive girlfriend went absolutely nuts at him (it had been a stressful day). Needless to say, he not only didn't charge us, he became very apologetic and just looked to get us out of there as quickly as possible!!).


I think that depends on the person you're dealing with. My brother's ex was prone to going nuts at anyone and everyone in a service role, sometimes warranted and sometimes less so. It had a far from perfect hit rate, more often than not she just pissed them off.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I think you know Concept in Cham, where it is pretty much the case that the team know of what they talk. I think that's the sort of shop you mean?
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SnoodlesMcFlude wrote:
Handy Turnip wrote:
(on our last ski trip, the car hire man suggested he might have to charge us for some wheel scrapes, which we hadn't done. My normally calm and passive girlfriend went absolutely nuts at him (it had been a stressful day). Needless to say, he not only didn't charge us, he became very apologetic and just looked to get us out of there as quickly as possible!!).


I think that depends on the person you're dealing with. My brother's ex was prone to going nuts at anyone aand everyone in a service role, sometimes warranted and sometimes less so. It had a far from perfect hit rate, more often than not she just pissed them off.


Yes, I completely agree, and I want to stress that I'm not recommending that you go nuts at everyone everytime (I hate those people too!), my girlfriends reaction was very much a one off and a genuine reacton. I think the car hire guy was calm until he looked at me to see me opened eyed, jaw dropped, then he realised that this wasn't an every day occurance! My fear is without her reaction, I would have tried to have a reasoned conversation with him ("it must have already been there, it wasn't me" type thing) and ended up having to pay the charge.

It was more a comment on the psychology of these things. In a 50-50 situation, if you go in on the back foot with an almost admission of guilt then someone might take advantage.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
... Given your facts I find it implausible that a ski would suddenly delam in the last 100m of its use but equally I don't know your son. It's also perfectly plausible to me, having been a dopey male teen myself, that a teen wouldn't notice something like that until it was specifcially pointed out so the damage could have occurred hours or days earlier whether by impact or materials failure.

If you can ride a ski which is broken like that, then presumably you can break it without noticing, or at least if you believe one of those things you ought perhaps to believe both.
Denying that the skier noticed it at all makes it hard to argue he didn't do it.

On the other hand the retail value of a pair of skis originally proposed was outrageous. I'm not sure how quickly insurance companies depreciate skis in normal (not rental) use, but it's going to be startlingly rapid. With bikes (which are in some cases taxable, hence the government publishes depreciation values) they're essentially worthless after a couple of years. In this case the skis were "a few years old". I doubt the residual value was very much at all, especially as you didn't damage the bindings. Even €150 sounds like a lot for well-used rental skis. Bear in mind that companies don't start off by paying retail.
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There's a lot not quite right here. You can pick up one of these 2018/19 models for around 200Eu brand new from a quick web-search. And they're park-freestyle skis, which as the OP said was what his son was into. I sympathise but really insurance is an absolute must with these activities. Aside from that, you have been royally ripped off. Sadly.
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Bodeswell wrote:
Aside from that, you have been royally ripped off. Sadly.

all too common in France anyway. The old "rental shop well get some sucker to buy us new skis" trick. They even do this on the French. They don't pay retail for rental skis, skis have a certain life and many rental shop skis are way, way beyond it.
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It might help to consider that if you had taken the insurance for every one of your 10 years hiring skis it could have cost more. It's not financially sensible to take out insurance to cover losses you can bear yourself - but it can be good for the peace of mind!
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This. I'd never insure stuff like that: it's not profitable to risk-pool unless you're less careful than average and/or can't afford to take the down sides of whatever it is.


--
I remember snowboarding Taos the other year with a very fine lady skier. We ripped late season snow, bumps and soft off-piste. She had rented a pair of brand new and very sexy Stöckli skis, very esoteric in the US. On returning them to the shop, she noticed and pointed out that she'd taken a huge chunk out of the base. The shop man took them back with a sad smile. No additional charge, no insurance, none of that stuff.

Perhaps the business model is different, or they thought she was carrying a Glock, or customer service just works differently there.
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