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Security of Quiver Killer screws

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I have been using Quiver Killer inserts for a while, but I find that I have to keep tightening the screws every other day or so. I am using the recommended thread locking liquid, Vibra-Tite, and tightening the screws using a standard Posidriv screwdriver. Using fresh Vibra-Tite on each screw and tightening it hard I still find the odd screw loose after a couple of days. Is this normal?

It means I have to spend five minutes checking and adjusting all our skis every other morning. Checking them when I get back from skiing is a bad idea because the skis are wet and the posidrive slots may be clogged with ice, with the likely graunching of the slots when I try to tighten them.

Should I tighten them harder and is there a recommended torque for this? Or should I try a different thread locking fluid?

Would allen screws be better than posidriv?

The inserts are really useful because of the ability to swap bindings and easier packing for travel. Also the inserts are fully sealed with epoxy glue into the skis and so you do not get the water damage around the fixings for the bindings that I have found with conventional screws. So I will definitely carry on using the Quiver Killers even if I do need to tighten them up frequently.
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Are you letting the Vibra-Tite fully dry on the screws before inserting them? (Are you using a pozidriv 2)
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A quick google for "quiver killer torque" will link you to the Quiver Killer FAQ and "Roughly 4 Nm torque (hand tight) is plenty.".

If you need to release your inner geek you can then get one of these - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GIFT-IDEA-MAGNETIC-TORQUE-SCREWDRIVER-1nm-8nm-IDEAL-FOR-BICYCLE-CYCLE/163135099476?epid=17017666432&hash=item25fb9c1254:g:px4AAOSwMBdb4Wm- (and a PZ2 driver bit).
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Oh... Why did you have to post that... *gets wallet*
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Better off with one of these as it goes all the way from 2 to 24nm; https://www.wiggle.co.uk/x-tools-essential-torque-wrench-set/
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As mentioned, apply a drop of vibra-tite on each screw, let ‘dry’, insert and tighten by hand until, well, tight. Never had cause to torque them tight, nor retighten after a days use.

bolderz wrote:
Would allen screws be better than posidriv?


How does the screw know or care what sort of driver it has??

Nick
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@bolderz, Have you been skiing particularly hard pistes?

I think the vibra-tite is supposed to last a few goes. Can't remember how many times I've switched mine, probably about five. Bindings have been on the same skis since mid January, and done about 10 ski days since. I've just swapped them to my fat skis – they hadn't been tightened since fitting, but one or two were no longer tight. They weren't loose enough to fall out though, so I'm not overly concerned (though tbf on my bindings, unless they're in walk mode all but one screw are hidden underneath). Nothing special here, just a posidrive.
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Thanks for all your replies.

@gsb, The first time I used them, the screws had Vibra-Tite already applied to them by the supplier @spyderjon. Recently I haven't been letting the Vibra-Tite dry before inserting the screws and this may be where I am going wrong. I am using a good quality Posidriv 2 screwdriver.

@Scarlet, I have never lost a screw through it becoming loose, and I suspect I could leave them longer without tightening without anything going seriously wrong. I have to admit to skiing some rather dubious surfaces off piste which could have rattled the skis around a bit.

@big_ben, The reason for using allen head screws would be that you can apply more torque with an allen key than with a screwdriver. They would also be less prone to graunching with ice and snow getting stuck in the head.
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@bolderz, Got Torx in mine but know what you mean. I've started to mark the screws with a perm marker to ID if they are moving.
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Another reason to use Binding Freedom over Quiver Killer. Their screws have locking serrations under the head (like normal alpine binding screws) to help prevent screws loosening. They’ve also got a Pozi 3 head as opposed to Pozi 2. Still apply Vibra-Tite, though. You can purchase them from Anything Technical in the UK too.
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Looking around I have found the original discussion of why Vibra-Tite is preferred to Loctite:

https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=70966

and this on Loctite:

https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=70048
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@bolderz, I've got QK on several pairs of my skis. Originally installed so I could share a Beast across multiple skis they became redundant (for that purpose) when the Beasts became so cheap I bought multiple extra pairs. As a result the bindings have now been mounted untouched on a couple of pairs for, lets say, 80 ski days on one pair and 20 ski days on another. They have not needed tightening at all.

I reckon your problem is def with not letting the Vibra-Tite dry. My understanding is it's not a thread locker in the way Loctite is, but rather a (sort of rubbery) thread coating that then acts much like a nyloc nut would, resisting loosening due to vibration.
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@bolderz, your issue is most definately because you've not let the VC3 dry.

And do NOT use Loctite with QK/BF inserts as it's very harmful to many of the plastics used in ski bindings so if it comes in contact which such the plastic will fail within a short period and without any warning signs.

@crosshatch, no.3 pozi screws are a solution to problem that doesn't exist and often make the screw head too large to use
in mamy models of bindings. And the serated underside has little or not affect at the torques used.
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@spyderjon Is it possible for you to stock the vc3 in bottles rather than sachets?

I got a 5ml tube from a Dutch archery supplier here https://archery.ixpesports.nl/contents/en-uk/p15079.html
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To illuminate by delving a little deeper into how the threads would lock, a steel screw/bolt in a metal threaded bore has to reach a torque level that distorts the threads by stretching and compression of the opposing components to make it secure.

Basically, as you tighten the bolt sufficiently to achieve this the bolt is stretched and will elongate the thread pitch. The "hole" will compress and shorten it's thread pitch. The conflict this brings effectively locks a bolt into a thread within the elasticity of the materials, and won't reverse out in use.

In this application it's unlikely to meet the torque required to do that. It will in all probability strip out the mounting prior to reaching that level, hence the need to use a supplementary solution to obtain a fixture that won't vibrate loose.

The solution described to use vc3, and let it dry, will effectively give the interference required to prevent the parts moving under normal service load but still work within the maximum bolt torque the structure can realistically support.
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@spyderjon, so we don't like blue Loctite anymore?
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geoffers wrote:
@spyderjon Is it possible for you to stock the vc3 in bottles rather than sachets?

I got a 5ml tube from a Dutch archery supplier here https://archery.ixpesports.nl/contents/en-uk/p15079.html

Yep, I'll have those 5ml tubes for the start of next season. The problem with the tube is that it's the same price as 5no. 1ml sachets but the last couple of ml left in the tube can go off if you don't use it quickly enough.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Mosha Marc wrote:
@spyderjon, so we don't like blue Loctite anymore?

No matey. Most of the binding manufactures said no to it years ago and I've posted that on here numerous times. Ask Chris Bingham what happened to the base plates of his toe bindings. You might get lucky with some makes/models of binding and it probably depends how much you slop it around but as it's designed to be applied/installed wet it's pretty hard not to get it were it should go.
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@spyderjon, is vc3 suitable for use on ski boot heel and toe piece bolts as mine have a habit of slackening?
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pieman666 wrote:
@spyderjon, is vc3 suitable for use on ski boot heel and toe piece bolts as mine have a habit of slackening?

Yep, it's perfect for that but, as above you must coat the threads and let them dry (5-10 mins) before installing the screws.
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Thanks @spyderjon, I will order some from you. Although @£1.50 a pop you may not be able to retire on the proceeds...
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Just on the Allen bolt idea to get more torque - you don’t want to over tighten otherwise you’ll break the fixing between QK and ski / araldite and the QK itself will be loose in the ski.

I’ve had a couple of QK issues this year - opposite problems really.

At the start of the winter I removed the screws and a couple took the QK inserts with them. The vibratight seemed to have “set” a bit over summer. I’ll definitely leave to screws inserted but loose when in storage this summer.

Second one was at the top of a skin track when my Mrs found her binding heel very lose. Bit of a walk out as no screwdriver and too loose to risk skiing and losing screws or whole heel piece! Thankfully we weren’t too far from the lift station!

Lesson learnt! Now carry screwdriver and have redone all the vibratight.
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spyderjon wrote:


@crosshatch, no.3 pozi screws are a solution to problem that doesn't exist and often make the screw head too large to use
in mamy models of bindings. And the serated underside has little or not affect at the torques used.


@spyderjon, I never said that Pozi 2 screws are a problem. Every ski shop will have a Pozi 3. Let’s face it, most DIN adjustments and mounts (apart from that ‘orrible Dynafiddle torx tat!) are done with a Pozi 3 (or large flat head) so it just saves folk having to carry more tools.

The serrated heads have made a difference in my experience in real world skiing and that’s why I suggested them. Binding Freedom products (screws, inserts and tools) just knock spots off the cheap QK offerings in my opinion, and yes, I’ve used both.
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