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Ski delaminated - manufacturing fault?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Back from my first week on a new pair of skis (Head iTitans) and there's some fairly noticeable damage on one of the tails. The base has separated from the top sheet and the ski edge is pushing down through the base where the separation has occured (presumably due to the sprung pressure). There's no damage on the base around the edge, no damage on the top sheet, and no obvious edge strike damage. Before I try getting a refund does that seem like a manufacturing issue to anyone?





Thanks!
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Well I can see signs of side-on impact damage in those pics and the fact that the p-tex has split along the line of the fingers is a dead giveaway sign of a side on impact/compression. So if I was being asked to assess those skis re a warrantly claim you'd be disappointed.

However an epoxy'n'clamp job will sort 'em.

IMO Supershapes are more easily prone to delam damage than other brands (or maybe I just see a lot because they're a popular ski and there's loads of 'em out there) but they do repair well.
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@spyderjon, My guess was that the edge had a bit of a kink in it before the base was ground and that this meant that the base was much thinner than it should be at that point. The edge itself still looks to be bonded to the rest of the ski.

You see lots more skis than me though.
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@rjs, edge looks much thinner as well. I mean, really much thinner!
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Isn't there a comment on another thread (Steve Angus's Val D one) about some kind of problem he's experiencing with his Head ski's tails falling apart? Might be worth a search..........
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Have you had those passed over a stone at all or out through an automatic machine ?
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Check Steve Angus thread a view from espace Killy , his head skis delaminated at tail . Seems Head skis have manufacturing issue this year
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For a brand new set of stix on their first go around I'd say they've been through the ringer and then some, with some added then some thrown in, in addition to more then some and, alas, getting in the way of impact with some popcorn kernels.............. But that's just my opinion.
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I'm with @rjs and @under a new name on this......
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That doesn't look like 'wear and tear' especially after one week from new. I'm loathe to contradict spyderjon and agree that a clamp and epoxy will be an easy fix for the de-lam . . . But the 'base' being thin enough to read a newspaper through is definitely not right. I'd posit that the ski was warped at the end of production, went through the final grind with too much pressure on that back edge and left just a skin's thickness of base material. The delamination was inevitable in this case and the base thickness indicates a clear manufacturing fault.
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Just had a further look at this and agreed that the edge does look thin - I only had a quick look first time around and was really looking for impact damage as I see a good number of skis that "were just tootling along a green run and they suddenly exploded on me".

A thinner edge however would not make the ski delaminate any easier, although it probably wouldn't be as resistant to a side impact.

I've assumed that the missing bit of p-tex was from impact damage which is easy to establish (although it can't be seen in the pic) as if the edge of the remaining p-tex has the correct thickness to it then the missing bit will have been from impact. However if the edge of the p-tex has no thickness to it then it's been ground to a taper - meaning it either came from the factory like that (which would be extremely unlikely as their QC is very good) and how come the OP didn't spot it or the ski has had another grind.

I was being knid in my original thread but whilst there are a lot of Supershapes out their I do see a lot of delams of which pretty much all are from the heel back to the tail - but to be fair most the skis have had reasonable mileage - but from what I've seen I wouldn't buy a pair.
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@spyderjon, unless some minimum wage ski bum with a Wintersteiger fetish has been let loose on them, someone at the factory mucked up. It's either machine operator error or manufacturing defect.
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Thanks all - the skis have only had a wax, no grind. I did do a cursory check when I purchased the skis but didn't notice how thin the edge was there; the missing p-tex is basically flush with the edge. I think I'll try and claim under warranty.
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Wrecked by the last person to grind these skis. If they haven't been ground since new then it's the manufactures fault.

The tail has been ground too deep, and probably to quickly. They have ground all the way to the edge and overheated it, destroying the bond of the resin and de-laminating the ski.

Yes can be fixed, but not (if this is a new ski) with any real long term durability as this is a flex point.

I am a ski maker, also worked as a ski tec for many years, I have made this mistake myself. But only while trying to make very abused skis smooth again.
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Having read this thread a couple of weeks ago I had a close look at my Titans when I was giving them a quick service today. Guess what? Both skis have some delamination from the tail. The openings aren't wide - I reckon circa 0.1mm as a piece of coke can aluminium fitted in it (and went to a depth of about 5mm). One ski has a gap on one side about 23cm long, the other has a gap on one side about 47cm long (that's pretty much all the way from the tail to under my heel). They seemed fine when I used them for two weeks in December, now I'm wondering if I should just carry on using them or if they're likely to self-destruct somewhere inconvenient. Gradual increase in gap or catastrophic failure - what's more likely? I've had 15 weeks use out of them and when I bought them they were second hand but only used "for a couple of weeks" so I'd guess less than 20 weeks use in total. I've just booked the first week of February in Bad Hofgastein so pondering on whether or not I need to rush out and buy new skis or just hope these will be fine.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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Attached image shows the delamination on one of my skis

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Another one here. Head titans purchased new Oct 17 skied for three and a half weeks . One has split at the tail. Not happy. Is this dangerous do I need to hire and get them fixed. Should I complain to Head or the internet shop I purchased them from. Or should I just give a galic shrug and get on with it.



Click for bigger images
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@pieman666, ...just for reference I have some rock-ski Salomons of ancient provenance, and they have severe tail delamination but are entirely useable. BUT...yours may be useable, I would still complain to Head, since 3 and a half weeks should not see this kind of problem. I sense a significant QC problem in that production run. Anyone else?.....
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@valais2, thanks that is reassuring. I will complain directly to Head. Seeing how rentals are treated in comparison to my fairly careful usage it must be a quality issue. I will wait tell I am back from holiday as I still have three days left. I'm off to canada at the begining of April so may have to stick with rentals
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I managed to delaminate and split the core and warp skis in the past mainly in big bumps and at speed. If you put enough force along the wrong axis into any ski this will happen.
Your skis may behave like a tail rocker now with the tension lost.
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Thanks for that suggestion and If there were big bumps here that I had skied at speed then that may be the cause but I'm a fifty year old bloke with knees long past their best fast bump skiing is long behind me. I skied some small bumps yesterday at a moderate pace but I didn't hit them with any aggression.
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Idris wrote:
Wrecked by the last person to grind these skis. If they haven't been ground since new then it's the manufactures fault.

The tail has been ground too deep, and probably to quickly. They have ground all the way to the edge and overheated it, destroying the bond of the resin and de-laminating the ski.

Yes can be fixed, but not (if this is a new ski) with any real long term durability as this is a flex point.

I am a ski maker, also worked as a ski tec for many years, I have made this mistake myself. But only while trying to make very abused skis smooth again.


I've seen this before too - the service shop made a mistake on the grind and returned my skis to me with the tail edges on one of the skis ground to the thickness of tin foil. Fortunately, my friend spotted it before we left the shop and they were therefore obliged to provide me with a new set. Turned out that a service technician had managed to 'block' the exit from the grind machine and my poor ski was therefore ground to death.

My skis looked almost exactly like the ones shown by the OP.

So, based on that, I'd suggest that someone has over-ground them thereby destroying most of the edge.
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for what it is worth if you want to make a warranty claim on a ski you approach the retailer that you bought them form, NOT Head directly, they have no contract with you and you none with them, your contract is only with the dealer who supplied the skis. there is nothing that winds a brand up more than a whiny customer who hasn't gone through the correct procedure, if a ski or any other product for that matter has a genuine fault then it would get replaced or refunded, but there is a process and involves the end user going to the retailer where it was purchased from and the retailer working with the manufacturer of the product.

we see this more and more now with the various on line dealers trying to pass the buck, i am afraid that if you bought it in France you have to return it to France, yes it might take time but that was always the risk



BTW looks like that ski had sprung before it hit the grinder in the factory which is why the edge is so thin and the delam has shown up
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CEM wrote:
for what it is worth if you want to make a warranty claim on a ski you approach the retailer that you bought them form, NOT Head directly, they have no contract with you and you none with them, your contract is only with the dealer who supplied the skis. there is nothing that winds a brand up more than a whiny customer who hasn't gone through the correct procedure, if a ski or any other product for that matter has a genuine fault then it would get replaced or refunded, but there is a process and involves the end user going to the retailer where it was purchased from and the retailer working with the manufacturer of the product.

we see this more and more now with the various on line dealers trying to pass the buck, i am afraid that if you bought it in France you have to return it to France, yes it might take time but that was always the risk



BTW looks like that ski had sprung before it hit the grinder in the factory which is why the edge is so thin and the delam has shown up


This isn't always the case. In Norway, the store will immediately refer the customer to the manufacturer. How it works here is that the customer first contacts the store, the store write a note down somewhere and then the customer contacts the distributor directly. If the manufacturer deems that its under warranty they will supply the customer with a new item (usually the same, or as close to it as possible). The store basically wants nothing to do with these things here.

This has happened to me a a few times.

It might be the same in France, but definately contact the retailer that you bought them from and see what they say.
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@Ouster, 1 week of skiing! The metal edge on the bottom of the tails looks absolutely battered!

Did you get them brand new?
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The shop has asked me to return the skis to them so they can send them to Head. Hopefully I will get a positive result and some skis back before I go again on the 6th of April..
I hired some Fischer RC4 yellow base SC slalom skis in 170 (2016) . Which is a very different beast to the Titans. They were great but certainly showed a couple of flaws in my technique for me to work on. Grip on hard pack was amazing, an off piste tight mogul field was unsurprisingly challenging as they were probably too stiff for me at 75kg. But worth checking out and if I saw a pair cheap I'd get them.
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CEM wrote:
for what it is worth if you want to make a warranty claim on a ski you approach the retailer that you bought them form, NOT Head directly, they have no contract with you and you none with them, your contract is only with the dealer who supplied the skis. there is nothing that winds a brand up more than a whiny customer who hasn't gone through the correct procedure, if a ski or any other product for that matter has a genuine fault then it would get replaced or refunded, but there is a process and involves the end user going to the retailer where it was purchased from and the retailer working with the manufacturer of the product.

we see this more and more now with the various on line dealers trying to pass the buck, i am afraid that if you bought it in France you have to return it to France, yes it might take time but that was always the risk



BTW looks like that ski had sprung before it hit the grinder in the factory which is why the edge is so thin and the delam has shown up
mmm..... I'm sure you're right CEM, but nothing winds up customers more than a brand that falls apart after a week, so on the "who's p1ssed off more scale", I think an angry customer would be a lot more annoyed that his skis had fallen apart, than a brand being miffed that someone hasn't followed the right procedure to complain about their product.
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Except that the exigencies of product distribution and contract law demand that the consumer deals with their supplier.

Them’s the rules.
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under a new name wrote:
Except that the exigencies of product distribution and contract law demand that the consumer deals with their supplier.

Them’s the rules.
I agree, but to say there is nothing that winds a brand up more is not to follow the correct procedure, ignores the fact that a customer who has bought dodgy skis couldn't care less about worrying about winding the brand up
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CEM is right in the UK and the EU your contract is with the retailer although I can't tell you the amount of times retailers try and fob me off telling me it's not their problem and you need to contact the manufacturer. However quoting the sale of goods act and that the said item must be fit for purpose and you're quite happy to take them to court over it they soon back down.
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Sack the Juggler wrote:
under a new name wrote:
Except that the exigencies of product distribution and contract law demand that the consumer deals with their supplier.

Them’s the rules.
I agree, but to say there is nothing that winds a brand up more is not to follow the correct procedure, ignores the fact that a customer who has bought dodgy skis couldn't care less about worrying about winding the brand up


+1. And why is a customer with a genuine complaint 'whiny?
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so many internet experts who have obviously never worked in retail in their lives ( or if they have, didn't have to handle returns )... that is what i love about this site

@Lilledonmarco, the OP is in London so not really a valid point in this case


sure go ahead try and bypass the system, it will take you longer to get a result and has more likelihood of being rejected, follow the simple premise that you have a contract with a retailer and you will for the most part get a better result and a faster one. simple reason is most brands do not have the processes in place to deal with an individual who does not have an account with them ( it may be that there are no skis left so a refund is required, the brand cannot do that, only the retailer can) and may not even have an office in the UK to deal with it, couple that with the fact the retailer carries a bit of clout with the supplier.... if i tell a brand that my £40k order will not be getting placed as they were lax with a warranty, it is a lot more powerful that you and a single pair of skis or boots

@FrequentFaller, why are retailers trying to fob you off? was your claim spurious? did you not buy the product from them? other than that i can't see why they would

retailers have recently been copping the flack for the online sellers supplying products then trying to pass the buck, distance selling regulations still mean your first point of contact is the retailer whom you purchased the product from, the number of requests we get for warranty claims for product bough oversees is getting higher every year, mostly due to the cost of returning the product being down to the consumer and shipping skis/boots across europe is not the cheapest thing to do..... many years ago everyone used to honor a companies warranty, you could walk into a shop in France in the resort with a delamed ski and if it was legit the shop would contact the supplier and get the authority to replace it there and then (the ski would go onto the UK warranty budget (each country has a budget for warranties / breakages etc)) and likewise if you walked into a dealer in the UK with a ski bought in Austria same thing would happen..... then a few years ago everything changed, resort shops started to refuse to deal with product not sold by themselves, this was mostly because the old dealer contracts that each brand had were seen as out dated and in some cases restrictive so were binned, this has led to the whole take it back to where you bought it status that we have these days.... all in all that is the state of play, your contract is with THE retailer who sold the goods


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 7-03-19 13:08; edited 1 time in total
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@holidayloverxx, because i hatre to say it but around 40% of the warranty claims we see are not genuine
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@CEM, nevertheless...with 25 years retail experience at many levels I find it disrespectful to call customers whiny...regardless of whether their complaint is justified or not. Maybe you think all customers are whiny not just the complainers...you weren't specific

I agree that once a customer knows the process they are best off following it
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We move people. Vast majority of clients are fab, but whiny doesn't even begin to describe the odd bad apple.

We have had one recently that we moved into store, stored and then moved into a new self-build.

2 weeks later and she claimed that her sofa, which was on a freshly tiled floor, had scuff marks on the bottom of the feet where they were in contact with the floor.

I have tried to be nice, I really have.
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@Frosty the Snowman, oh I'm not saying you don't get sods. But generally...IME which is extensive..people who complain do it reasonably and often apologetically. Of course you get the ones who come in for an argument and they are certainly argumentative and bolshie not whiny.
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@holidayloverxx, In my experience, people are becoming more intolerant, aggressive, whiny, bolshie ect etc in every aspect of live.

We are very lucky with our clients, so more of a general observation.

It is a really crap time to be in business at the moment, probably the worst I have ever known.
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@holidayloverxx, nope, our customers (for the most part 98+%) are great, unfortunately the odd few drag the whole thing down, (its the same in most if not all industries) over the years i have come to understand that the "complainers" are the kind of people who you have to wonder how they made it through life so far, these are the people who's MacDonald's coffee was too hot or too cold, who want to blame someone for the fact it is raining or they couldn't get a parking space but 98+% are the good ones who we love working with, if someone wants our help we will help them, when they become obstructive and don't want help there is nothing we (or anyone else for that matter) can do for them
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@CEM, Very true
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Frosty the Snowman wrote:
@holidayloverxx, In my experience, people are becoming more intolerant, aggressive, whiny, bolshie ect etc in every aspect of live.

We are very lucky with our clients, so more of a general observation.

It is a really crap time to be in business at the moment, probably the worst I have ever known.


Off on a slight tangent but, I sold a cycle shop business 27 years ago that I ran for 11 years so can confess to having had some retail experience and my current business of 25 years is of a locksmith company. As stated earlier by others most customers are great and I like chatting with them Little Angel , I stopped advertising 10 years ago and all our trade is word of mouth and existing clients so I feel we are doing something right and have never been busier. It is a shame that just a few customers spoil things. A good example of this was 2 days ago. A customer telephones, he lives in a small block of flats where we fitted a door closing device to the main entrance door some time ago. He tells me the door isn't currently locking, he also tells me the entryphone system is also not working. I then ask him some very simple questions to try to get to the bottom of the problem as to whether the 2 problems are related or just coincidental. He started to shout at me down the phone Shocked Shocked We fitted none of the systems so owe no duty to him. I kept entirely calm and agreed to pay a visit which I did yesterday, the entry system was broken (we don't fit or repair them) which was causing the electronic lock to not operate so I recommended a company that could fix this. If he had not done a loopy on the phone I could have diagnosed it with him and saved a visit, ultimately that cost him an £80 Call-Out charge he could have avoided. wink
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