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Downhill skier has priority.

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
We all know the downhill skier has priority. Does that apply to people who are tree dodging just off the edge of the piste and decide to come shooting back onto the piste flying back onto it from that 2ft ledge that always seems to be there right into the path of the then uphill piste skier who is steadily making their way down the piste with nothing in front of them until, the previous off-piste slightly downhill skier suddenly appears, scaring the living daylights out if you and causing emergency avoidance manouevres that you weren't expecting to be saddled with!?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
No you can hit them no probs - unless the priorite à droite rule is in play wink
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Depends if they’re wearing a helmet or not!
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@iSnowhead, this is covered by Rule 5 of the FIS code of conduct:
Entering, starting and moving upwards
A skier or snowboarder entering a marked run, starting again
after stopping or moving upwards on the slopes must look up and
down the slopes that he can do so without endangering himself
or others.

Very sadly, there have been two fatalities caused in this way in Flaine over the last few years. In one, a skier rejoining the piste collided with a snowboarder and the rejoining skier was fatally injured. In the other a snowboarder rejoined and collided with a skier, fatally injuring the skier. Both the incidents took place in the same area, and people continue to rejoin there without looking.
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sj1608 wrote:
@iSnowhead, this is covered by Rule 5 of the FIS code of conduct ...

But if that's the case, then which of those two rules takes precedence?
I don't recall there being a rule which specifies the relative priority or weighting or an algorithm for applying these "rules".
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@philwig, In normal circumstances the uphill skier has to the duty not to endanger the downhill skier but if someone (re)joins the piste without checking it is safe to do so then they are to blame. Simples
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The 'commentary' in the UK Snowsports edition of the rules explains what @Rabbie says:
http://www.uksnowsports.co.uk/downloads/FIS%20Code%20of%20Conduct%20-%2010%20points%202010.pdf
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Here are the FIS "rules", which come with a commentary, but it doesn't include or otherwise state the priority you're suggesting unless I'm missing something.

Do you have a reference where it specifically says which rule is more important?

http://www.fis-ski.com/mm/Document/documentlibrary/Administrative/04/22/77/10fisrulesforconductsafetyandtheenvironment_newFISCI_Neutral.pdf
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@philwig, we both posted at the same moment, think the link I posted should explain when 5 trumps 3 and when it doesn't.
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I got shouted at a couple of years ago by a skier who jumped onto a piste uphill from me.

I had stopped to pick up the "Slow down" sign that he had knocked over on his previous run.
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Rule 3 is more important for the uphill skier and rule 5 is more important for the skier reentering the piste. Simples.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@philwig, My understanding is that in general Rule 3 applies but Rule 5 means that you have to make sure you don't endanger someone uphill when (re)joining a piste. I dont see a conflict
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@sj1608, where (what piste) in Flaine did these accidents happen?
Ta.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@dozofoz, they were by the Blanchot, on Serpentine.

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=2885217
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I was being slightly flippant above, but in general if you look at the rules as being there to prevent accidents then you apply the ones that apply to you in your current situation. If everyone does the same tgen the chances of an accident diminish.
To put it in the context above, if the uphill skier A can see the skier B in the trees they should allow for B to make any voluntary or involuntary movement, including rejoining the piste, and plan their route accordingly. Meanwhile B should be looking uphill before entering the piste, so - even if A hasn't seen B - B also has the opportunity to avoid accident.
If, however, you look at the rules as being there to determine fault in the event of an accident you are rather missing the more important point. Anyway, it's not always going to be A or B's fault, sometimes both will be at fault, sometimes neither - just as with motoring.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@iSnowhead, in answer to your question. Yes it does. Re-joining a piste requires looking uphill and joining in when safe to do so. Believing you are touched with more gnarl than you are doesn't mean jack.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Basically neither rule has precedence over the other.

But.

Don’t bother yourself too much with having right of way. It won’t stop you getting hurt. The only thing that will stop you getting hurt is you. There will always be people who don’t listen to the rules. There will always be people who don’t know them. There will always be people living in a bubble who think they’re somehow exempt. There will always be people who normally follow the rules but are just having a great day and overlook them for 30 seconds and have an accident in those 30 seconds. The only way around it is for you to ski in a manner where these people do not pose a risk to you.

Sadly there will always be occasions where they do but honestly I just came to the realisation that when skiing pistes you just have to assume that everybody else on it is trying to kill you and ski accordingly.

I shouted at some snowheads on the PreBB bash who weren’t best pleased at my verbal. Until they came around to the fact that actually yes they had been stood in the middle of a black piste behind a corner with trees on, and restarted their run by traversing out before going downhill. Technically yes - right of way. But right of way wasn’t going to actually, physically, prevent a skier or boarder from clattering into them at 50mph from around the corner.

You have to be sensible, even if you have right of way.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@dp, +1, that post deserves framing and putting somewhere prominent. No use sitting in the hospital saying "but I had right of way".
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Quote:

I just came to the realisation that when skiing pistes you just have to assume that everybody else on it is trying to kill you and ski accordingly.


I remember my driving instructor telling me ‘if you assume every other driver is going to try to kill you then you’ll have the best chance of survival’. It was good advice that I carried over into skiing. So far I’m still alive.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
It's how I ski (and drive) too.. then rage to anyone who will listen about the idiot who broke the rules afterwards!

I've also had to narrowly dodge someone come flying out of trees with no warning and crossed the piste at high speed and disappeared. Two foot ledge, just come round a corner so hadn't been able to spot them as they were approaching from the other direction. I did yell a few choice expletives but fortunately no impact with me or my two young children who, being shorter, really had no chance of seeing him. Morally that dude was in the wrong even if legally he wasn't!
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@swiftoid, good advice. Helped on my bike last night when some muppet pulled out on me, despite me being dressed up and lit up like a Xmas tree on acid
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I also ski (and drive) with the view that everyone else is trying to kill me. One of my favourite driving rules is to always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. I therefore wouldn’t ski round a corner at 50mph because I always assume that there is someone stopped just around that corner and about the traverse across the slope!
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@reh_stuff, +1
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reh_stuff wrote:
I also ski (and drive) with the view that everyone else is trying to kill me. One of my favourite driving rules is to always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. I therefore wouldn’t ski round a corner at 50mph because I always assume that there is someone stopped just around that corner and about the traverse across the slope!


being able to stop within the clear distance that you can see is infact part of the highway code i believe..
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Bob wrote:
reh_stuff wrote:
I also ski (and drive) with the view that everyone else is trying to kill me. One of my favourite driving rules is to always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. I therefore wouldn’t ski round a corner at 50mph because I always assume that there is someone stopped just around that corner and about the traverse across the slope!


being able to stop within the clear distance that you can see is infact part of the highway code i believe..


Yep. It's certainly not a gap for some dick to pull in to. Infuriates me.
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If you think logically the look uphill and yield rules must take precedence over the "downhill skier" rule as teh converse would allow lemmings to be in the right when they pull blind into traffic. As dp states they still do of course many thousands of times every day. Some of the worst culprits IME are pupils in ski lessons - yep just cos it was clear when the instructor set off doesn't mean you are clear 60 seconds later!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I think the problem is the word 'hill' and it should probably be 'piste' in this context. So a down-piste skier has right of way and it is up to the up-piste skier to pass them safely. If you are rejoining a piste while you may be the down-hill skier you are not the down-piste skier as you aren't on the piste and so it's your responsibility to rejoin the piste safely.
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@Mjit, nice logic
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Mjit, no. The uphill skier has the responsibility to ski in such a way that they don't endanger people ahead. The skier rejoining the piste ALSO has the the responsibility to rejoin in a way that does not endanger themselves or others.
The code talks about leaving enough room for the downhill skier to make any expected or unexpected movement. Lets say that skier A is making turns in the soft snow just beyond the piste markers, coming out of a turn hits a hidden rock and has a fall onto the piste into the path of skier B who is pelting down the edge of the piste. Clearly A wasn't intending to rejoin the piste, but B could still have avoided the accident by predicting that the skier off the side of the piste might rejoin (deliberately or otherwise) without looking.
It's not a case of which rule applies or who has 'right of way' but which rules apply to best keep everyone safe.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I was about to say that neither rule had priority, but reading the FIS notes it implies otherwise:

Quote:
"When he has started skiing or snowboarding properly again – even slowly – he has the benefit of rule 3 as against faster skiers and snowboarders coming from above or behind."

I read that as meaning that the emerging snowboarder has the benefit of rule three when they have established themselves on the run, in the normal flow of traffic. - and not until. Think of it in terms of road traffic. Someone emerging, without looking, from a side road / slip road and pulling straight across a faster moving carriageway would definitely be seen to be at fault.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@foxtrotzulu, I don't think comparing to road traffic is always helpful, as we don't ski in lanes or always have clear junctions. The FIS rules aren't that clearly written (or perhaps the English translations aren't that clear, if they were not originally in English). Many people never start skiing or snowboarding properly, let alone again Toofy Grin
If you take a practical view of the rules, it's reasonable to look all around before starting off, but once moving you're going to have to be looking downhill pretty much all the time. At that point you have to rely on rule 3, because it's not reasonable to expect you to be looking backwards.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
If they rejoin deliberately, then they should look. (Rules 1 & 5)
If they rejoin involuntarily, then they are not in control. (Rules 1, 2 & 5)

If you have broken rules 1,2 & 5, then you are to blame.
You can't suddenly expect to benefit under rules 3 & 4, as you have already put the other skiers in danger.
In this instance, breaking rule 5 is causal, the subsequent issues under 3 & 4 are resultant not causal.

I think sailing has a good take on this in as much as there are very clear rules of navigation with other vessels.
Power vs Sail, Port Vs Starboard, Windward Vs Leeward, overtaking vessel vs vessel being overtaken etc...
Even though these rules are in place, the overriding principle is that all skippers must take steps to avoid a collision.
If you are the stand-on vessel (right of way) and you hold your course, but the vessel who does not have right of way takes no action, then even though you have right of way, if you saw the other vessel, you are obliged to take steps to avoid a collision. And you can be held responsible in court.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@WindOfChange, It depends whether you are looking to apply the rules to avoid accidents or to attribute blame afterwards. My personal priority when skiing is to avoid having an accident, not to avoid having accidents that I can't hold someone else responsible for.
Again I'd point to rule 4 which says when overtaking you should allow enough room for another skier or snowboarder to make any voluntary or involuntary movement. i.e. even though it is incumbent on them to ski in control it is also incumbent on you to allow enough space in case they lose control.

I think your final points about sailing are spot on, about everyone taking steps to avoid a collision even if they have right of way, and that's how it should be.
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Depends if you are applying COLREGs where I would avoid any collision or Racing Rules of Sailing where I might go for a minor tap to make my point!

Seriously common sense would suggest that you should not enter a piste from off piste without looking up the hill first. If they can’t control their speed to make any necessary adjustment, then that is their problem.
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@DavidYacht, Same for ski racing.
Normally I always try to avoid contact / colisions.
But when my sons and I are going down the Chatel boarder-X all 4 at once, then a little bit of contact is considered fair game. (especially as we all gang up on the youngest as he always wins).
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@WindOfChange, your point about sailing also shows the value of my points.

In maritime terms, whoever has lawful right of way, a 100,000 ton cruise ship or tanker will cut most smaller boats in half. Therefore whether you have right of way or not, it is very much in your interest to sail in a manner where you do not have to end up on first name terms with the bow of such ships.

Same with skiing... you might have right of way but if you spot something which either (a) is dangerous, or (b) could evolve - by it's own fault or not - into something dangerous; you need to adapt your skiing to account for it. If you see somebody pratting around in the side-piste, you need to have the thought process of "that dickhead will probably jump back onto the piste without looking any... second... now" rather than "he best look back up the piste before joining it".
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I imagine this like I was driving a car. If you drive into the back of someone (this being someone downhill) it's your fault. If someone pulls out of a junction immediately in front of you (rejoining the piste) and you hit them it's their fault.
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