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SCGB Suspends Repping Service in France

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
snowcrazy wrote:

Hope you have a nice winter and who knows maybe we will meet for a nice friendly chat and a beer whilst skiing with the SCGB this winter. Toofy Grin


I'd enjoy that SnowC, provided we can agree not discuss Scgb for more than 15 mins over a coffee, beer or whatever. I'll be in Chamonix from Dec 26th for 8 days and then possibly to Engelberg for a week (considering this for a bit of variety& cos of its snow record) , but i may end up staying around the Chamonix valley, conditions dependent.I'll in verbier 1st week Feb & I'll from there.

Let me know your skiing (as opposed to board posting) plans, if you're interested in hooking up.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@snowcrazy,
Thank you for posting the report.

We will have to disagree about qualified. The SCGB run a course which people can and do fail. They are also graded as to which of the resorts they can lead. This allows SC members know that the leaders have had some training and as it is a members only service then it is irrelevant to everyone else. It is an internal qualification. Just like (but in a more extreme vein) I was qualified to fly in the back of a fast jet all over the World but no external organisation recognised the qualification or accredited the training regime.

As for not all SC members not carrying avi kit - I have lobbied the club on numerous occasions around this policy and agree with you. However if I had a euro for every time I have seen an ESF group off piste in the E-K (and out of sight of a piste) without any backpacks I would be able to drink myself into oblivion. I have never seen an EVO 2 or any small school group that have not been fully equipped. So, being mischievous, the ESF are just as bad!
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@chocksaway, I haven't taken the SCGB course but I wouldn't need too much persuading that it qualifies you (not legally maybe but in terms of giving you some of the necessary skills) to lead a group at least as well as BASI L2
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@horgand, I shall get in touch when I am next over in Chamonix, normally make it a few times in the season. It would be good to have a chat about skiing (agree only 15 min on SCGB stuff max.) and maybe even have a ski if the snow is good.

@chocksaway, I think to use the word qualified on a forum like this is very misleading. If you had simply said they passed an Internal assessment as you now mentioneed then it would be better.

I agree they do training on the 'leaders course', but it only lasts for about 10 days and half of this time is on easy piste stuff. Not training to be an 'off piste leader'. As I said, a good refresher if you know what you are doing already, but not much more. I think to call them qualified is VERY misleading even to members.

As for failing the course. You must be a very poor leader or skier to fail. I know the standards very well that the SCGB use for grading leaders. They are very easy at the lower levels and are nowhere near a Ski Instructor level unless you pass with at 'Gold' standard. Even then without meaning to be rude to my friends that are still SCGB Leaders, I think most of them would agree they are unlikely to pass the 'test technique or Euro test'. Very few BASI guys can pass the Euro test.

As the whole issue of Instructors is discussed very often. I think the SCGB should be very careful not to give the impression their leaders are better trained than they really are. Also they like to say they are not professionals or employed. As I said before they cannot have it both ways.

As for Arvi Kit, I am pleased to read you agree with me. I also agree with you about the ESF, but they are getting better. Have you seen their safety video for Instructors. It is very good, pity some still do not comply with the rules.

@Arno, I am very surprised knowing your off piste experience to read your last comment. A BASI L2 cannot take people off piste, unless they have changed the rules this year. They most certainly cannot work in France. If you are only talking about 'on piste', then OK, I can agree, although I am not sure all SCGB Leaders would pass the L2 either. But this is know different to a Ski Host and that has already been banned (pending appeal).

The problem with SCGB is they do not just stay on piste so IMO they need to be properly qualified and all carry full arvi gear to do this when taking people off piste. Remember it is not just members they take off piste and the SCGB Leaders are working for a national UK organisation. Just having 'in house' training for off piste leading is not enough.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Who can " lead" off piste ?? A lvl 4 or a qualified guide only ? Most ESF are only instructors not guides therefore do not fall in to your category of qualified.
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Guides do not necessarily make good instructors ..... Instructor does not mean guide ....
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@snowcrazy, I think we are at cross purposes. my point was that having an instructor's badge doesn't magically make you a great leader - the L2 course (when I did it) has a bit on managing a group safely but most of it is about teaching and personal technique. if the SCGB can't manage to get the same level of understanding about a managing a group across on their course which (presumably) is all about managing groups safely, there is something amiss.

neither course on its own qualifies someone to start taking groups off piste - certainly agree with that. an L2 instructor, when working as an instructor isn't allowed to take people off piste. again, the SCGB leader falls in a grey area - I don't see the problem with clubs organising off piste groups who ski together and nominating an "organiser/leader". The SCGB seems to have strayed away from what I would see as a true members' club and offer leaders as a service you get in return for your fee and that seems to be where the problems arise
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@limegreen1, Both a guide and a Ski Instructor can lead off piste. It just differs where they can go. Sometimes an Instructor is better as they teach skills, whilst at other times a guide is better although often they do not teach as much. Some Guides are also Instructors. That can be the best combination. It depends what it is you want from the day out. Skiing Off piste is a specific part of the training for an Instructor and also a High Mountain Guide. But these are two different qualifications.

@Arno, Ok, I understand what you are saying. Yes I agree, the L2 does get taught a little about managing a group, but I also do not think they learn enough on that course to then be left to take group anywhere they like. That is why the French do not accept this level of qualification.

I also do not think that the SCGB Leader's course covers this topic well enough to then say, yes you are now safe to take people on the mountain and even more so, off piste in areas they often DO NOT know well or even in places they might know.

It is not like when we ski with our friends and someone says, OK I will lead this section. They are an Organisation with Official Leaders. They cannot say, as they like to try. We are not responsible for those that ski with us. They are responsable. They call themselves Leaders.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
KenX wrote:
Update on the court case in Albertville yesterday:
After a long day due to delays, the case for both sides was put forward and the result will be issued in 6-8 weeks time.
That's it for now...............................

KenX, the SCGB "Ambassador" in La Plagne (Gary) had a slightly different story. He said the SCGB won their case in Albertville, but the other side immediately appealed and the case will now be heard in the High Court in Chambery. Sometime next year.
Just what i heard . . .
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
The whole thing is just so very typically French... They want everything their own way for minimal effort...now I am not saying they are all bad or anything, indeed a French friend recently enlightened me on the very essense of being French.... Ever wondered why the prices in some French resorts are so crazy high on the mountain, now they will have you believe its because of the cost of getting it up there (not such an issue for the Italians, Austrians etc??) well my friend informed me that they would rather serve one person at a astronomical price that 5 at a half decent price....its less effort for the same return...

Here's a thought lets just vote with our boards and skis and head off to pastures new....there are 1000's of resorts to discover out there....some even have good prices and happy friendly people Wink
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@mrcw43, Welcome to snowHeads snowHead
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Thanks
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
A bit of thread resurrection...

Did the French Police appeal against the win in Albertville?

Has this all gone away?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
bar shaker wrote:
A bit of thread resurrection...

Did the French Police appeal against the win in Albertville?

Has this all gone away?


I think you'll find the SCGB lost in Albertville, lost the appeal in Chambery and there may be an appeal to the French High Court in progress of which I know nothing. Don't hold your breath on this one.

I don't think repping will be coming back to France in the form the SCGB or TOs want to run it any time in the future. The SCGB could probably change their business model to make their repping service comply with French legislation but they don't appear to want to do that.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I though the SCGB had restarted a guiding service using Evo2?
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
The Chambery appeal was lost however that was apparently expected to happen and it is now going to a higher level.

The SCGB ran a guiding service with Evo2 last season, which appeared to be reasonably successful and I am fairly certain that the same service will be in operation for the forthcoming season.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar wrote:
I though the SCGB had restarted a guiding service using Evo2?


but not their repping service, so they have fallen in line with the French way of thinking, but as you know better than me there are other workable models they could have explored.

// edited for spelling


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 19-09-16 19:39; edited 1 time in total
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
davidof wrote:
but not their repping service, so they have fallen in line with the French way of thingking, but as you know better than me there are other workable models they could have explored.
Indeed. To be honest, I thought the Evo2 contract was designed to be a slap in the face of ESF rather than a strict replacement for the repping service, although as I've never used the repping service I might be wrong in that.
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The Evo2 repping service is supposed to be temp but may prove to be permanent. I suspect the case will continue for years. Loss of the case will actually encourage other countries to go the French way. This in turn threatens the future of the club in its current format.
If we use Tignes as an example. It use to have 2 leaders that your membership paid for. If out on a local guide off piste day you paid that as per any punter. To go with the Evo2 chap it is £15 for a half day and £30 for full day above your membership subs. In reality at Tignes this means about 25% of the service and the club member has to pay a fee each day your led. Some of days are piste days.
In reality SCGB leaders had long ago abandoned going well off piste and the legal case against the club may have have real validity years ago but not when it started.
The basis of the French case against Le Ski and the club isanyone leading and getting paid must be suitably qualified. The action against Le Ski means this includes on piste only. Logically they are indicating that the pistes are not safe and that anyone leading on piste should be arrested. So that should include anyone leading friends about.
Both sides have flaws in their argument. SCGB leaders have their accom and ski pass paid for
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