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Double-check your equipment, bindings...

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Met a bored English father with his 5 yr old son in the excellent Vietnamese opposite the station in Bourg St Maurice today. In Val for the season with the family, poor kid had taken on a jump that was a bit too much for him, ending up in plaster with a multiple fracture shin level Sad Sad - the ski hadn't released. Sort of accident you think kids with their pliable bones at that age would usually get away with, just goes to show. The weight adjustment was fine - but the toe-heel setting was too tight.

Double-check the binding release on your skis folks, especially if you've just hired them - too tight, and they act as a lever adding pressure when you fall, too loose and they come off when they shouldn't. All obvious stuff, but vital for your safety, and seeing the face on this poor little lad....



Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 25-04-04 22:14; edited 1 time in total
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Good advice, PG. There are some less careful techs out there - fortunately not many, but there are always some that slip through the net, and people always make mistakes...
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Very good advice PG.

I skied with the father in Val a few weeks ago along with the Ski Club Rep. I felt really sorry for them - they'd taken a 10 week sabatical and apparently the kid was a pretty good skiier. That has pretty much ruined their holiday though.

I'll have to check out that Vietnamese next time I'm in or around Bourg. However last time I was in Bourg overnight some git stole my aerial and my side indicators (it's a French car so wasn't an anti-Brit thing) - god knows why he wanted the indicators; the French hardly ever use them!
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Quote:

Double-check the binding release on your skis folks

Stupid question I'm sure, but how?
(one week to go, and paranoia concerning reckless 8 year old reaches its peak ...)
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I'm sure there's a scientific way, but if I hire skiis I check by seeing how hard I have to kick my boot (with the other foot) to make it release. It also means I get to kick the wife and kids in public, which always gets a few glances from the lift queue. Laughing
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It does depend to an extent on how you ski. If you're a hard-skiing expert, a low DIN setting is bad. On the other hand, if you're an unhurried 'piste cruiser', you can probably get away with it. Set the DIN too high and it won't come off when you need it to. Racers often set it above their weight, but that's another matter. The usual thing for the average skier is to set it at your weight, though beginners prone to falling might be advised to set it lower. As for the toe-heel setting, if you struggle to get your boot in and have to force to lock the binding in place, it's probably too tight and this alone can prevent release in some circumstances.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Knew there would be something on the Net, so check out.....
http://www.terrymorse.com/ski/din.html

Not sure how up to date it is though.....
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
That's useful, and it looks like my DIN settings right as well which is reassuring.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
poma wrote:
Stupid question I'm sure, but how?

Not stupid at all. Heel bindings should have clear indicators, like a little arrow that has to point inbetween two marks when the boot is in. Din settings are not accurate without this.
Quote:
(one week to go, and paranoia concerning reckless 8 year old reaches its peak ...)

Got one of those too. Hope you have nice, soft snow to fall on.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Good point. last year went to put on my hired ski's and found could not get left boot in. Looked like it was set fro a few sizes too small. The ski school chappy had a look and adjusted, only to find that the DIN on that ski was set at the max!!! Didnt realise at the time just how lucky I was. Especialy as it wass only mu second ski trip and I spent alot of time falling. As always PG you pass on the best info...
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
My mate this year had a pair of saloman bindings (I forget the model, but i have them on my skis so can look them up). He fell, and caught a metal clip at the back on one of them, which opened it up. Luckily I was able to slide it to about the same as the other ski so he was able to (gently) ski to the hire place (they had them up the mountain), where the bloke reckoned I was very slightly out in setting it.

However, what confused me was that these clips were exposed. On mine there's a "protector" which prevents accidentally catching it. The ski-hire peopel thought he was unlucky and it wasn't a likely event. Worth watching out for, esp. if you have kids who might play with them.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
At a dry slope yesterday I picked up a pair(!) of skis with Salomon bindings, one had a wire lever, the other needed a screwdriver to operate. Not that it mattered, I made sure the adjustments were right.

I believe in the value of knowing enough to set up your own bindings. Putting your trust in professional installers and rental technicians is all very well, but they do make mistakes (it's better if you can spot them straight away) and things do happen on the slopes, requiring adjustments. I have been installing and maintaining my own bindings/equipment for 35 years and it really isn't that complicated. (Anyone remember strips of metal edging screwed to wooden skis?) You need only a few precision tools, patience, common sense and ability to read instructions.
Even if you choose to let someone else to do the work, having the knowlege can save you weeks in plaster.

Martin
(flame proof vest ON) Madeye-Smiley
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
PG, interesting chart. I always assumed the bigger the boot size the tighter the DIN setting would need to be, not the other way round. Guess I was thinking the longer the boot the more leverage or something along those lines.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Matthew Clarkson, no it would be the opposite. Imagine a big "L" of metal - put the "v" of it on the group (edit: GROUND, not group!) and hold the long end. If a friend has hold of the short end, he would have no chance of preventing you pushing your end of the L down the the ground. This is effectively the leg/foot - the longer the leg and the shorter the foot, the more leverage between ankle and toe.


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Wed 3-03-04 13:40; edited 1 time in total
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Ok, that makes sense - think I get it now!! Maybe that's why I used to fall out of my bindings quite often: am 5'10'' but only 10 stone so hire shops put the bindings on about 6, but my boots are only size six!! I always thought that's why they wouldn't put them any tighter even if I asked. My instructor in Val D'Isere when I was doing slalom training put the DINS up to 8 - no more falling out episodes, well, at least not when I didn't want to!!. Also much more sensible for powder skiing now. I would have tightened them myself, but feel much more comfortable about it now an instructors said it's the right thing to do.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Ultimately all ski reatilers have an agreement with ski binding suppliers to supply equipment according to the manufacturers instructions - whether on dry slopes or snow. Discounting the measurement of tibai head as the basis for adjustment {increasingly rare even in germany} a supplier must know;

Your hieght
Your weight
Your skier type {sort of ability, though a bit more complex}
The length in mm of your boot sole.

If they don't elicit this information and use a setting table they are CRIMINALLY negligent or incompetent {or both} and you should walk out of the shop or away from the ski slope. skiing on equipment which has not been adjusted in this way signifcantly increases the risk of your being injured.

That should be the first test for any skier recieving equipment - has the person adjusting this equipment asked the right questions ?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
arnold lunn,
I'm just reading about Sir Arnold Lunn, any relation?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Back to the original topic, just spotted a relevant article at:
http://www.pistehors.com/comments/A200_0_1_0_C/
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MartinH, "arnold lunn" was one of the founders of the ski club, this arnold lunn popped u pon the ski club forum (pre-MO day, obviously). It was made clear that the arnold lun posting to the forum was in no way related to the original, and was using the name as a mark of respect : his posting were intended to stimulate debate on the future of the ski club, with respect to the original aims of the founders, and a pseudnym was used so that his real identity would not cause ripples among either the plebians or the cognoscenti
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
What "Arnold Lunn" says, is to a limited extent, true. For children (the original subject of this post) the guide should be followed. However, for many other skiers using that information and the charts provided by manufacturers would lead to frequent pre-releasing from the bindings (ie the ski would pop off when you don't fall) when they hit a bump or jut push their boots and skis hard. The bigger the skis (width and length), the more this is true.

According to the chart linked by PG I should be running my bindings at DIN 7. I know from experience that I will pre-release many times per day if I use this setting. Some might say that pre-releasing is preferable to injury; however, when it hapens all the time (as it would for me at 7) it gets really tedious. When you get into skiing steeper stuff the consequences of a pre-release become serious - a fall is really going to hurt or possibly injure.

The implication of this is that following the guidelines to the letter is not necessarily a good idea. In many circumstances setting the DIN correctly is more of an art than a science. Having a ski tech who is knowledgeable about the equipment he is tuning, knows your rough details (weight, height but, more importantly, how you ski) and can balance all the factors accurately will lead to a safer setup than following the guides. Obviously erring on the side of caution is sensible, moving up the settings gradually until the bindings do not pre-release. Also, despite DIN theoreticaly being an industry-wide standard there are significant differences in how equipment behaves and how spring characteristics change higher up in their compression range (at higher DINs); personally I would never ski on Markers.

The bottom line is that the product setup guides were stipulated by lawyers to avoid litigation for injuries casued by non-releasing bindings. It would be interesting if someone were to sue them because of injuries casued by pre-releasing. [Disclaimer: I detest litigous behaviour in skiing and hate what it is doing to the sport in many places]
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Quote:
According to the chart linked by PG I should be running my bindings at DIN 7. I know from experience that I will pre-release many times per day if I use this setting.
I think somewhere else I mentioned that expert skiers have more latitude with respect to settings, depending as you say, on how you ski. The chart really is a rough guide for lesser mortals...
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
PG, I realise that completely; I was responding to the implication made by "Arnold" that anyone who does not follow these guidelines is a criminal. IMO someone who always follows these rules is a danger to society - or at least the pistes Wink
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Yes... it's a fine line between safety and disaster, so many factors involved, not least a sprinkling of luck. Going by the book in certain special circumstances is clearly wrong.
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Yes, they are only a guide for more advanced skiers, but, they should still be considered. If someone on the chart should be a 7, yet has to ski at a 10 or above in normal conditions (i.e. not cliff jumping all day, or pro racing) then I would question their skill. Perhaps with a bit of instruction on how to ski better, they may find that they don't need to tighten up their bindings as much, and so they are less likely to suffer injury. kurt von liebewitz, I'm not saying that is the case with you, but I know on other forums where boys like to brag about their bindings being set high due to pre-release, and yet it's an ego thing combined with compensation for poor technique with a pig-headedness which says "No instructor can teach me - I'm too good to take lessons"
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ideally, bindings should be set to release just before the point where the individuals' ligaments and bones become endangered. Susceptibility to injury is affected by fitness, warming up, genetic makeup, previous injuries - the list goes on. Guidelines used are based on estimates and statistics.

There was a period when the hardest possible boots and DIN settings were cool and desirable. Before that it was soft, leather shoes and anyone who learned on those had to acquire good balance by default. Ski schools hiring high, hard boots to kids aren't doing them any favours. But that's another thread.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Another thing to check is that the bindings are still properly attached to the ski. A few months ago we found that a screw on one of Sam's bindings was loose. We needed to remove the binding, and put it back on a bit further back, to give a safe anchorage for the screw.

We keep a check on his binding settings regularly, they need to creep up as he gets bigger and better. They are now just over 2 I think. Thankfully when he fell a few weeks ago one ski released, and it was only his arm that he broke.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
NBT many thanks for the explanation - I'm a friend of the club, though on occasion a critical one. I've a formal role within skiing organisation here and overseas and have to be a bit careful to ensure that personal views don't get associated with these organisations. Arnold was selected as a mark of respect to the ski club's founding fathers {and ethos} and also to ensure that it was recognised as a pseudonym.

Kurt - in terms of criminality; it's always difficult to prove criminal negligence in an english court. However there is a good deal of research to show that following manufacturer's instructions produces significant reductions in injuries.

The manufacturer's {at least in terms of release setting} don't write these procedures. Rather they have all decided to adopt two compatible standards {ISO 11088 and ASTM F939} for use with their equipment. Indirectly these procedures do have the effect of setting standards against which a manufacturer's {or retailer's} conduct might be judged.

I note the comments on marker - funny enough tho the Marker toepieces are the least effected by high or low settings. The release threshold is changed by a spring moving in rleation to a pivot point. All others increase or decrease setting by compressing a spring and hence behave at their most predictable in the middle of their setting range.

Many of the self devised systems in use, especially at dry ski slopes have as much relationship to these standards {produced over many years and based on published peer reviewed research} as using your hat or glove size to select a release threshold. Their use is reckless {and given that most people running dry ski slopes are aware of and are trained in the use of manufacturer's instructions that seems close to a criminal disreagard for their customers safety}.

Note; the chart which has been eferred to in this forum is now out of date; there are two new skier categories 1- and 3+ they take into account a skier who behaves very cautiously and would prefer to take the risk of an inadvertent release and at the other end a skier who prefers the risk of reduced release to that of inadvertent release. The 3+ might be more fitted to Kurt's needs.

However all should remember that lowered settings are not safer - they just produce different injuries to ones which are too high.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Every year, there are 150,000 accidents on the slopes, including 90,000 involving alpine skiers. 1 in 3 will have twisted knees, 16,000 an ACL injury - stats from the French 'Médecins de Montagne' organization. They argue that poorly adjusted bindings are at fault in the majority of cases. More than 1 in 2 binding settings was found to have been wrongly adjusted. More than half of lower leg injuries could be avoided by a combination of properly adjusted bindings and some targeted physical preparation prior to the holiday.

Unless you're really sure you know what you're doing, get the adjustments made by a pro. As has been mentioned above, it's not just a matter of sex/weight/footsize, but also takes into account the skier's profile - level, age, physicial condition and the type of skiing involved.

Poorly adjusted bindings are, according to MdM, responsible for 43% of sprained knees on the slopes, but lack of fitness and poor muscular response times help to increase the damage done.

For the bindings to release effectively, the muscles need to be in a state of constant readiness, able to react immediately when balance is being lost, and you begin to fall. Specific fitness training prior to the ski trip, as well as awareness of fatigue levels when skiing, both contribute greatly to a reduction in the risk of injury.

Despite this a large percentage of people take part in winter sports with no physical preparation and without checking that their bindings are properly adjusted. People still tend to think of the classic ski injury as a fracture, but twisted knees and damaged ligaments are an increasing problem and represent a major proportion of injuries.

It may seem a long way off… but for next season, resolve to get fit, get those bindings checked, and when you’re on the slopes, monitor your fatigue levels… And you’ll cut the risk of injury in half!


Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Sun 25-04-04 12:25; edited 1 time in total
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
PG, somehow I missed this thread when it was active earlier - more fascinating stuff.
Most hire shops I have used have only inquired about weight (ocasionally not even that!). I think ability may be being judged by type of skis, and height by "eyeballing".

I keep meeting people on the slopes who say "I meant to get fit, but I didn't find the time."
Some wise guy said: "Those who don't find the time to exercise will one day have to find the time to be ill" For ill you can read injured.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
arnold lunn wrote:

Many of the self devised systems in use, especially at dry ski slopes


I would just like to assure everyone that the system used at Cardiff is the official Salomon one and that all involved in setting bindings undergo the Salomon training course every year. (and yes - we use Salomon bindings Wink )
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Alan Craggs, out of curiosity, are DIN settings generally the same for snow and dry slope ski=ing, assuming no physical changes to the skier/skis?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I had my bindings set in Champagny at New Year (5). but when I took my skis to get the bindings adjusted for my new boots, the guy insisted it was too strong and changed them to 4.5 . Who was right? All I know was that when I fell on the last day, my binding released. Unfortunately, I fell on my ski and hurt my shoulder on it!!
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