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Why do we turn?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Catriona wrote:
Can't say I've seen too many trees on the slope - would be a lawsuit waiting to happen!


Funny. You'll find them all over here in the US!
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
We turn in skiing for the same reason we run to a particular location on a tennis court when we're playing tennis. To go there because that's where we want to be.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Not always, it might be because we didn't want to be there.
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marc, you turn to somewhere because you don't want to be there? Or because you want to be in that new place instead of the place where you are?

I do get your point, though. There are times when a turn is "defensive:" I do not want to go there (into that tree, that rock, that queue)!

In general, though, line choice is about deciding where to go and moving our body in an appropriate way to move our momentum in that direction, specifically. The major point I'm trying to make here?

How do we ski as efficiently as possible so that we can wring the greatest enjoyment out of each ski day?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I like the "Better Off Dead" explanation:

"Go that way, fast. If anything gets in your way,..turn."
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Laughing

Does my series of posts make the point, though? Does it make sense that there are more and less effective ways of skiing?
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
For me, yes. I'm not sure I could take it onto the slopes though. Maybe, but I think I need coaching. After my lesson last week (first in years), I've resolved to have two a week everytime I go. I realised that though I can get down virtually anything (not had to walk yet), I am nowhere near at the level I've realised I want to be.

I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of being "over-analytical" (for want of a better phrase, it's not quite what I mean), which probably explains my plateau and try to practise exercises to make things become "automatic". Like changing gear. I can understand why people do though.

I'll have to see how it goes.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
skanky, it really depends on how you learn. Visual, auditory, or kinesthetic. While we're all a combination of the three, if your auditory is low, talking about it (i.e. conversing here) will be of low value. I'm very high auditory, then visual and then kineshetic. I love banging this stuff around here...!
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That makes sense. A mate is a training consultant and he also reckons that there are three types of learner: thinkers, tryers and a third I can't recall (he uses it in his cricket coaching). I think I'm a tryer (e.g. do it, see how it doesn't work and correct that).

I'll probably end up at the same place as you're talkin about and doing the same thing but wouldn't have realised it. Now that I've had it explained to me, I'll probably recognise it when I get there.
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skanky, he probably called the third "watchers"
Thinkers like to understand in their minds
Tryers like to experiment on their own
Watchers like to see someone else do it, and follow/copy them.

(I think htat was how it went)
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That's the one. I'm mainly tryer but part watcher. Erm, we are still talking about skiing...? Confused
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
skanky wrote:
That's the one. I'm mainly tryer but part watcher. Erm, we are still talking about skiing...? Confused


Well, any kind of learning, really. But, let's not let this get too far away from skiing, shall we? Embarassed
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Sorry, someone was talking about a "news" story at the time that sounded very similar to what I was typing. I won't go into details but Blighty-side members may guess who it was about.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
You're getting into educational theory here - that way madness lies!

For me the 'why' questions and the 'overview' questions are rarely answered in the standard ski school class and so this is useful - even if it isn't as much fun as sliding down the mountain (no offence intended ssh) Very Happy
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
ssh wrote:


Does my series of posts make the point, though? Does it make sense that there are more and less effective ways of skiing?


Yes and yes. I'd always vote for effectiveness over aesthetics as well. I'm not too sure about the learner "types" though. I find that if I can get my head round the point being explained, and translate it into my own mental "picture" of how skiing works, then I can progress more quickly.

However, this translation is easier if I can see it demonstrated and an idea of the "feel" or feedback I should experiance is helpful to ensure I'm actually doing it correctly.

So we're all three aren't we?
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Probably, but different people tend more towards one (or two) than the other(s). Think of a triangle with each side being a scale for each type and people tend not to be slap bang in the middle but towards one one apex or another.

That's the theory anyway, and I'm only relating what he was talking about in terms of applying hios job to cricket coaching, to me in a car journey one day. It may all be rubbish, but he believes it and he's not stupid. He could give specific examples of players he'd coached - though again I hadn't met these people.
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marc wrote:
ssh wrote:


Does my series of posts make the point, though? Does it make sense that there are more and less effective ways of skiing?


Yes and yes. I'd always vote for effectiveness over aesthetics as well. I'm not too sure about the learner "types" though. I find that if I can get my head round the point being explained, and translate it into my own mental "picture" of how skiing works, then I can progress more quickly.

However, this translation is easier if I can see it demonstrated and an idea of the "feel" or feedback I should experiance is helpful to ensure I'm actually doing it correctly.

So we're all three aren't we?


What you're doing is translating to visual, so you're likely mostly visual. I tend to not translate to pictures, but to concepts. Others do it primarily "by feel". Those are the three types (and, as skanky says, we are all a combination of the three).
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
ssh, what exactly do you mean by "effective" and why is that important to you? If it means doing what I want - when I want - where I want - how I want then it would seem a good measure for evaluating turns (or soufflés or life in general).
90% of the time I turn not to get from point A to point B but rather because I'm a chickensh** and I hate speed and will do anything to slow myself down as long as I can also remain intact and avoid contact with the piste (apart the bottoms and sides of my skis, of course).
Whatever blows your hair back!!!
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Cee Bee, by "effective," I mean an approach that uses energy in such a way that we can wring the absolute most joy out of each turn, run, and day. It is important only insomuch as it helps to maximize enjoyment. That's the goal of skiing, isn't it?

Of course, if you would like to work harder than you need to do, feel free. Wink
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
ssh wrote:
For a little discussion, why do we turn?

The ones steaming down the piste in a straight line are often those with limited technique and considerable stupidity. or in other words, you learn nothing by pretending to be the Herminator when you're not. Watch a local ski club on the slopes - speed training is a very small part of the overall program, you'll rarely see them in schuss position.
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ssh, right, like an economic efficiency argument for the slopes. Glad to see though that you are not a ski nazi, unlike some of my friends (got a half hour lecture over the New Year's holiday ski trip - subtext: "Why your skiing is a waste of time and why you need to change"). Confused
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Cee Bee, I deliberately avoided using "efficient,' since to me that's a very sterile word. Effective has a deeper and broader meaning, allowing for preference and desire in addition to purely efficient movement. If you're racing, efficiency can mean shaving time off the clock. But, most of us aren't racing...

I would never tell others how to ski--unless they ask me for help. Then, I start by asking them what they'd like to be able to do, and what they understand about skiing. One of my favorite questions for finding out their current level of understanding is, "Why do we turn?"
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
ssh, ref the race training / efficiency link you make... A number of race clubs here such as Les Arcs, Le Grand Bornand - but not the majority in France unfortunately - make a point of emphasizing the pleasure/free skiing aspect of the sport. It seems to work in their favour longer term, although the results may be slower in coming at an early age (less of the endless, repetitive runs through GS/Slalom courses), because these are the clubs that have the greatest success at FIS level. Kids enjoy their skiing more, and are more likely to stick with it when training gets more serious.
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PG wrote:
ssh wrote:
For a little discussion, why do we turn?

The ones steaming down the piste in a straight line are often those with limited technique and considerable stupidity. or in other words, you learn nothing by pretending to be the Herminator when you're not. Watch a local ski club on the slopes - speed training is a very small part of the overall program, you'll rarely see them in schuss position.


Raises a new question: Why do we schuss?

1) To scare ourselves on long runs (yes, yes, I do it when it's empty).

2) To make it to the top of the uphill bit that's coming up (far more common).
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The more side-cut (and the more skill) the more the ski/board can bend and the tighter the tool can bend/carve/turn. Just be more aggressive and put more weight into the nose!
Oh and keep the edges 'sharp'!
Oh2: and in 10 years I've only seen two skiers ride powder with any grace or without creating a bumpfield (videos excluded).
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Masque, I watched a dozen local 10/12 year olds skiing through the trees with their club trainer just a week back in Les Arcs. I reckon they could give 99.9% of tourist boarders twice their age a lesson in the grace stakes!
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
PG, absolutely agree! Free skiing gives the racing meaning, I think. That's one reason I lasted only a couple of seasons on the team, even though I was captain: I wasn't willing to make it my life.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
skanky, to feel the burn! Wink
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
ssh, I watched a club trainer at a key point (blind jump) in a super G at Tignes a fortnight ago. One of his skiers completely forgot how the course was set below, put her weight on the wrong ski over the rise and missed the gate by a distance, she was going so fast. He steamed down, screamed at her for not concentrating during the course inspection, then skied off in a huff. It was embarassing - the kid was only 12. Seems to me it's getting more and more competitive at an ever younger age.

It was the French national champs for the Children I age group today. Our club doesn't even take part - they reckon they do enough races already in a season at that age.. plenty of time later for the serious stuff. Can't be a bad philosophy - they've had 4 seniors taking part in several World Cup events this year, not bad for one club!


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Mon 8-03-04 18:20; edited 1 time in total
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
PG, what a great spectrum you've illustrated. My coach's final words to me were (and I quote): "Oh, don't fill my cuffs with your excuses!" I was 16. I had just finished two seasons as the team captain, finished second in the club slalom even though I lost a ski two gates before the finish, had spent a full year building a case to have the team sanctioned by the school board as a varsity sport, and had managed to recruit a couple of dozen team members. My issue: I couldn't afford to ski 6 days a week due to my dad's employment. He told me it was all or nothing, so I stepped down. That was his response to me. rolling eyes

I really like what your club is doing. I think it's absolutely right. I wish them continued success as a result!
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ssh,
Quote:
all or nothing

Financial pressures don't help, forcing clubs more and more to concentrate on the elite. Another issue is how much can a young body take? My daughter's closest rival last year in the regionals, Alizee, 'was' a superb little skier. Take a look at these photos of her in the national parallel final - she was still 11 at the time....
GS ALIZEE. What do you reckon to the position/attitude? A beautiful skier to watch. They were neck and neck all year, Alizee coming 2nd to Hannah in the regionals, and 8th in the national 'Coq d'Or', two places above H. But after some pain early this season the surgeon reckoned the constant overextensions had caused a bone in the knee to separate from the joint (no accident involved, just the pressures of training/racing.) As a result she hasn't skied once this current season, and no one knows when she'll be back on skis. The whole family was devastated, Alizee lived for racing, spent hours studying the technique of her heroes.

Hence my relief that from a club in the southern Alps where my daughter raced virtually every weekend, she's now part of one with a far more relaxed attitude!
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PG, wow! I have heard about these things, but only as rumors...

My girls dance ballet, and we'll be changing studios for similar reasons. I think that far too many parents are not understanding the physiological implications of high stress on developing bodies. They need time to grow. We wouldn't think about such things with infants and their cartilage-like bones, but we seem to think that a 10-11 year old has bones and muscles of an adult. Craziness!

I'm excited about your new club, as well. A long marathon, not continuous sprints!!!
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Afraid we live in a society where winning is everything, coming second almost means 'second-rate', and there's no recognition at all for the guy who's 50th in the world rankings - the general public will not even have heard of him. Watching the London marathon a few years back (I used to compete in distance and ultra runs myself), some overweight guy standing next me commented when the 2hr30 runners were going by that "they were moving pretty slow". I couldn't resist telling him that he probably couldn't even run 50 yards at that pace! Some people just haven't got a clue....
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PG, nope, most people haven't got a clue! Wink
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