 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| PJSki, If you end up with 2 tiers along the lines that AxsMan suggests, then I reckon the top tier would need to be circa £150 and the lower tier of say £35 (haven't sat down to work that out, just a guess). That way those who use the reps pay for it, those who don't pay less. Strip out the mag and you have another scenario. I think you're suggesting menu pricing. If it were my club I'd rather have 200,000 paying members at 10 quid (and cut the frills) than 19,000 at £50 (who are more labour-intensive). |
Since we're on menu pricing, I suppose I deserve a discount for never having set foot in the White House.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
After 22 pages of this discussion I'd just like to make an important point concerning the safety of skiing in Milton Keynes.
Unlike Verbier, we have a 100% death-free skiing record in this resort. The Miltongletscher can be skied without any need for UIAGM guides, Ski Club reps, Health and Safety inspectors or X-scapologists (geddit?).
We welcome all bloodwagon-chasing lawyers, insurance agents and other men in grey ski suits. There's no business here, gentlemen - just full-on action skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Frosty the Snowman, are you suggesting that BS and BS are one and the same? |
I'm not BS and I don't think he is either 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| By the way, just checked with the wife and, incredibly, I'm not always right. News to me. |
I've just put two and two together (it takes a couple of days). Your wife - her name's Boadicea, isn't it?
Has she thought of fitting a ski rack to that thing?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
The Abominable snowHead. If you mean the Milton Keynes roundabouts, you're probably right.
But if you're talking about the skiing facility there, there is plenty of evidence on this forum that the owners are lucky if they've not been sued to extinction. The account of the screaming woman (impaled on some piece of equipment left randomly lying around) at Megamum's birthday bash, was particularly harrowing.
I am not tempted by Milton Keynes.
In any way at all. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
David Goldsmith, yeah, Boadicea Swiller, formidable woman, great skier. I think you might like to borrow her for the AGM. Today isn't it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Bode Swiller,
Yup. I'm trying to decide whether or not to go. Trouble is, I think you have to sign in, and I'd rather remain anonymous.... (I don't want a sock puppet for Christmas, just a low profile.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| AGM. Today isn't it? |
Yes, Swiller. 7pm at the White House.
Click here for White House heli-skiing photo.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
David Goldsmith, That'll be the editor of S&B just nipping out for lunch
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Just back from the AGM.
Reps will do two days on piste skiing every week.
So, by inference, the other three days are not 'on piste'. It sounds a bit vague I know.
I always understood 'off-piste' to mean 'off' in the morning and no pistes till going home time - i.e. all day. However, if you have the transceiver and do a mixture of 'on' and 'off' that counts as well.
I am not explaining it very well. I was reassured by the discussions though and the liability issue for the accident and any possible future situations.
AGM on TV idea did not get an enthusiastic reponse.
Menu membership is being considered.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Latchigo wrote: |
| Menu membership is being considered. |
Where do I send my bill?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Latchigo, Thanks. Does it get minuted somewhere, I mean somewhere where we can look?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Hurtle, Yes, eventually - after Christmas though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Not sure I'd wholly agree with that interpretation. I'd say that menu membership is being "considered", which means it's not being considered! Menu membership was first discussed at least 3 decades ago.
Repping and off-piste repping is heavily cross-subsidised by the general membership, but it's passionately supported by the ruling status quo. That combination means that proposing a significant increase in membership fee for those who want off-piste repping would be like snowmen voting for saunas. There would be a significant fall in demand for the service. Make no mistake - Reps Rule!
I was amused at the response to suggesting that fewer than 10% of the SCGB's 33,500 members actually go off-piste skiing with reps (it doesn't require statistical genius to do the maths), which prompted a strong protest from a Council member. To be fair, the Club would not be able to put a precise figure on it, but a good guesstimate could be made.
Concerning the Verbier accident, there was heavy cross-questioning of the Chairman by one member very keen to know what type of litigation the Club was facing, and that's about all I feel comfortable in reporting in the public domain. The Club emerged from the two previous fatalities without being sued. It was sued several years ago concerning a non-fatal accident at Aspen, but the claimant's case collapsed before trial.
In terms of future off-piste repping and this big issue about 'semi-off-piste', the board's position seemed surprisingly relaxed, with a suggestion of 'business as usual'. The Chief Exec, Caroline Stuart-Taylor made a passionate plea for reps to be supported in following the new policy, but when one member asked for an example of a specific ski run that might now be considered out-of-bounds, there was no answer. It was said that the Club's legal advice [hopefully superior to Sue, Grabbit and Ski] was to keep the definitions vague and avoid trouble.
No comment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
David Goldsmith, Thanks for that - sounds like a typically British fudge, which is a good thing.
One small point - you say the Club "emerged" without being sued twice, and another plaintiffs case collapsed (in a manner not unconnected with the closure of the SCGB forum?). Might it not be fairer and better journalism to say the club was not responsible in those 3 incidents? Innocent until proven guilty? Why keep mentioning them?
Also - if you include the freshtracks operation nearer to 20% of the club ski with a rep each year, on and off-piste combined, despite a relatively small number of resorts being repped and many of the total number of members being kids unlikely to ski with a rep. And as mentioned and ignored by you above, the reps are deemed important by many of those who join the club. It does seem to me sometimes that you have an anti-rep agenda.
Thanks for going and reporting back anyway. Good to have another view.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| stoatsbrother wrote: |
One small point - you say the Club "emerged" without being sued twice, and another plaintiffs case collapsed (in a manner not unconnected with the closure of the SCGB forum?). Might it not be fairer and better journalism to say the club was not responsible in those 3 incidents? Innocent until proven guilty? |
Well, I certainly didn't say 'guilty' and hopefully didn't imply 'guilty'. The Club is continuing to take calculated risks that legal precedent won't be set against it (i.e. by evidence being tested in court and our procedures found wanting)
What did emerge last night is that the costs the Club has incurred to date were "approximately 50% trauma, 50% legal". In giving that split, "trauma" was defined as assistance to the victim and family. I'm obviously proud that the Club acted correctly in that way and hope that the outcome is a comfortable one for all concerned.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
David Goldsmith, me too - nice to see the right thing being done.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Quote: |
It was said that the Club's legal advice [hopefully superior to Sue, Grabbit and Ski] was to keep the definitions vague and avoid trouble.
|
Huh? Anyone else think that's bad legal advice?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Bode Swiller, probably good advice.... for the lawyers...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Quote: |
It was said that the Club's legal advice [hopefully superior to Sue, Grabbit and Ski] was to keep the definitions vague and avoid trouble.
|
Huh? Anyone else think that's bad legal advice? |
Terrible, on the face of it. But we don't know all the background or any of the detail.
stoatsbrother, you cynic, you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Not sure I'd wholly agree with that interpretation. I'd say that menu membership is being "considered", which means it's not being considered! Menu membership was first discussed at least 3 decades ago. |
Possibly. In the same way that AGM on TV may be appropriate to the 150th AGM. (We had just attended the 100th AGM )
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Concerning the Verbier accident, there was heavy cross-questioning of the Chairman by one member very keen to know what type of litigation the Club was facing, and that's about all I feel comfortable in reporting in the public domain. The Club emerged from the two previous fatalities without being sued. It was sued several years ago concerning a non-fatal accident at Aspen, but the claimant's case collapsed before trial. |
'Abrasive' cross questioning in my view - specifically by the man in the row in front of you.
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
In terms of future off-piste repping and this big issue about 'semi-off-piste', the board's position seemed surprisingly relaxed, with a suggestion of 'business as usual'. The Chief Exec, Caroline Stuart-Taylor made a passionate plea for reps to be supported in following the new policy, but when one member asked for an example of a specific ski run that might now be considered out-of-bounds, there was no answer. It was said that the Club's legal advice [hopefully superior to Sue, Grabbit and Ski] was to keep the definitions vague and avoid trouble.
|
Support for the reps including do not badger them into going into areas they are not happy to ski. I had not come across this situation before but it seems a sensible response. Young rep in front of me said the statement could by used by him to fend off such demands. The club are also looking to encourage use of fully qualified guides at shared expense of participating members. Again, perfectly reasonable in my view.
I would like to see a few more numbers in the presentations rather than assurances that something is 'going well'. Even at the risk of David Goldsmith using those figures to take the council to task.
Same faces this year as last. If you are looking to reach the people who are not interested in the status quo this does not help. However, I suspect they are passive rather than active members and you could put the AGM next door and they may not attend.
I forgot to ask why Heavenly is no longer a rep resort. I suspect it is due to the collapse of the company running it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Latchigo, do we know who that man in front of DG was? or do we have to wait for the AGM? feel free to pm me? Just nosy!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
stoatsbrother, Yes. He gave his name and it will doubtless appear in the minutes in due course - though I cannot remember it. Not someone I recognise from the forums. Hibernia was actually directly in front of DG - but he was not the abrasive man.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
I forgot to ask why Heavenly is no longer a rep resort. I suspect it is due to the collapse of the company running it.
|
Part of Vail Resorts and they certainly haven't gone under. It was American Skiing Company and they have gone, but Vail have owned for 4-5 years now. Probably due to lack of members visiting and/or (more likely) Vail not wanting to put one up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| Latchigo, do we know who that man in front of DG was? or do we have to wait for the AGM? feel free to pm me? Just nosy! |
Probably Jef Wickes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Bode Swiller, Shame you did not turn up. Or maybe you were there unknown to us. Arnie was asking after you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| DB wrote: |
| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| Latchigo, do we know who that man in front of DG was? or do we have to wait for the AGM? feel free to pm me? Just nosy! |
Probably Jef Wickes. |
I do not know Jef Wickes but I thought he was more of a 'slacker' type. This man was suited and booted - straight from work by the look of it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
My main concern about all this is that the SCGB doesn't become a sort of fridge, attracting fridge-magnet-type lawyers.
I'm trying to think of what would repel lawyers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Latchigo wrote: |
| I do not know Jef Wickes but I thought he was more of a 'slacker' type. This man was suited and booted - straight from work by the look of it. |
Unless he was wearing a monkey suit, a napoleonic bicorn hat and holding a turkey under his left arm it probably wasn't Jef. It's easy to get things like this mixed up over the internet, sorry for any confusion.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 30-11-07 13:02; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Latchigo, yes, right behind you... red party frock & pearl necklace. JacksonHole was asking for little ME! Hopefully I'll get a ride in his personal heli-chopper one day so I can see the depleteing ozone for myself.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
David Goldsmith,
| Quote: |
fridge-magnet-type lawyers
|
What on earth are they? And why do you want to repel lawyers?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
My main concern about all this is that the SCGB doesn't become a sort of fridge, attracting fridge-magnet-type lawyers.
I'm trying to think of what would repel lawyers. |
Well he seemed mollified by the end. If he was an ambulance chaser at least he is not an expert in Swiss law.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| David Goldsmith, Thanks for that - sounds like a typically British fudge, which is a good thing. |
As a confection, fudge is fun.
The problem is that British skiing doesn't operate in the way it did in the first half of the 20th century. We're not an imperial force in the Alps any longer. So, for the Club to act as 'English eccentrics' in the face of foreign laws, international ski guiding standards and clear definitions of what's piste (checked) and off-piste (unchecked) is pushing our luck.
Fudge kind of works on home territory. In fact, it would probably work on Scottish mountains ... where there are no reps.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Oh I geddit, you reckon this abrasive person was a lawyer chasing business, and that that sort hands out fridge magnets, rather than business cards. Fair enough, I agree the Ski Club doesn't need that sort of lawyer. (Was just beginning to feel a touch got-at there...)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
David Goldsmith,
| Quote: |
So, for the Club to act as 'English eccentrics' in the face of foreign laws, international ski guiding standards and clear definitions of what's piste (checked) and off-piste (unchecked) is pushing our luck.
|
No lawyer could possibly have expressed that any better. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
The problem is that British skiing doesn't operate in the way it did in the first half of the 20th century. We're not an imperial force in the Alps any longer. So, for the Club to act as 'English eccentrics' in the face of foreign laws, international ski guiding standards and clear definitions of what's piste (checked) and off-piste (unchecked) is pushing our luck.
Fudge kind of works on home territory. In fact, it would probably work on Scottish mountains ... where there are no reps. |
I thought the club had taken soundings from lawyers and insurers before issuing the advice. So I did not see it as being 'Carry On Regardless'.
Though if people are expecting 'full-day, qualified off piste guide subsitute' for £50 a year they are deluded.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
22 pages in and it seems like the fog has only got foggier.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Not only that, your goggles have misted up and you haven't the faintest idea where you are. It's like a good day on Cairngorm.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
