Edge judder

A snowHead

With a very pronounced forward lean there's a danger that your body compensates by dropping the hips back. Might well mean dropping in to the back seat. I changed boots recently and the new ones have slightly less forward lean and I feel much better balanced fore/aft as a result.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Lots of technique analysis here (& understandably so) re the causes of judder but has anyone who has suffered this thought about increasing the side edge angle of their skis to increase their bite? Or even ensuring that you edges are sharp in the first place wink

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spyderjon, that's a fair point, but why do manufacturers not have a more acute side edge angle off the shelf to combat this?

Personally, I think it's more to do with technique and other issues like forward lean and ramp angle as mentioned above.

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OhFFS!!!! Will you lot STOP talking bo‖ocks about equipment without first addressing the fact that the vast majority of us need to get a bloody sight fitter and far more physically agile to slide the gear we have to its best performance. The human mind and its corporal manifestation can adapt to almost any circumstance as long as it is willing to achieve that goal. Modern equipment is making us mentally lazy and physically unprepared for those occurrences that fall outside our comfort zone. We expect our equipment to compensate for our lack of sporting prowess and fitness . . . then get miffed when it doesn't. 'Ramp angle' my aɾse, if you've the bio-mechanical feedback to feel it you can compensate for it.
As Fastman knows, you don't need to have your heels clipped in to ski alpine, you just need your head to know when you are centred and balanced over your skis and how to make changes to that. It's all about your mind and your body controlling what you slide on . . . not the other way round.

Many of you have seen me ski on blunt edged, poor waxed, fat old Icelandics . . . in telemark bindings . . . I don't find it much of an issue to keep up with you (moguls are still a booger, but that's me and i'm working on it ) if you rely on artificial means to compensate for your lack of preparation then you'll never really understand the feeling of the snow sliding under your feet. Boarders get this because most of us know that equipment bollux is just that and we get on with adapting to and mastering our tools, an equipment tweek here and there will not undermine the basic premiss the 'we are the masters of our own fate'.

Get or stay as fit as you can, listen to and learn to understand what your body is doing. Then you can begin to learn to ski . . . and take real pleasure from that. It doesn't require an open wallet to achieve it.

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Masque, nice to see you in top form, my friend! Smile

After all it is free

Masque,

It's a technique thing not a fitness thing, IMO. Kit and how it is set up plays a part, but only a small part compared to how you use it.

rob@rar, if my experience in January is anything to go by, you must be right. My fitness was very seriously compromised and I was skiing the wrong sort of skis for the conditions, but managed really quite OK. Prior to my taking lessons with a certain rather good ski school, I would have been in deep trouble.

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Pedantica, Very Happy

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Would the surface you ski on have any influence on this problem?

The lower/outside ski of turn (when I ski at least) feels to have more pressure on it than the inside ski (perhaps it shouldn't, but I find it does), unless the piste is uniformally soft throughout the entire depth that the ski cuts through I would have thought that any firmness/icier conditions just under the surface would have had the propensity to shake skis under different pressures around at different rates - hence judder in one ski under another.

As above - would piste conditions play a part in this problem?

Megamum, that's the point, with good 'suspension' it doesn't matter what the surface is . . . though as it gets harder, the better you have to be . . . and that's often in your head. We have a tendency to 'freeze' and tighten up when conditions harden and the opposite is needed.

You know it makes sense.

masque , you may feel equipment and set up is a non issue but what about edge judder with when using wide skis. how much more edge pressure would you say you can have/ control without judder when on narrow skis compared with +100mm wide skis ?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

skimottaret, I don't see that width has any input other than the proportionally greater lateral force trying to roll the skis (it's a rotational vector, but no need to over egg the description) back to flat. Personally I find I automatically apply a little more angulation to keep the pressure insertion directly into the edge. For most of us this will be autonomic and plays no part in anything but natural balance. Also, if you are relaxed on your skis or board you don't need as acute insertion angles and less chance of simply having your skis slide out from under you if they do jar out of their tracks. Also, the lighter you are on your skis, the quicker you can turn them especially fat ones.

Obviously fat skis are heavier and induce greater stresses throughout the skiing experience but edge judder is not one of them as their additional mass will also contribute to more stability in their tracks.

A snowHead

Masque, So it's the ability to use things like our knees to absorb the small imperfections (a 'fine' movement) which helps to solve the problem. In much the same way as I allow my knees to flex the skis over the bumps in a 'coarse' movement (primarily 'cos I can't ski round them yet LOL). Maybe the OP needs a ski mojo!

Joking aside even I have noticed that as the surface becomes hard I tend to not pressure the skis as much - I find that I can almost push the edge beyond the point that it will grip if I 'pressure' too hard. I tend to call it 'dancing on ice' as I feel that I have to ski it more gently and with greater subtlety - I find it astonishing that I can feel it as my fairly low ability level, but I can. I think it was my 2011 week in Les Arcs that taught me loads about more solid conditions - I am much more confident on it now.

A snowHead

Masque, I disagree. You can see examples of what's being talked about watching the WC circuit.

Or are you suggesting they just can't ski well enough?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Masque, yeas there is a much higher lateral force so as a thought experiment would 200mm wides skis not be more difficult to hold an edge than 70mm. I personally find it is much more difficult to control edge pressure on wider skis..

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skimottaret, I'm a snowboarder first and always so I'm more used to large leverages, I also have that teleboard which is the fatest ski you can buy so I can speak from direct empirical experience. We're now getting into discussing extremes and NO it's not more difficult to hold an edge . . . but is is more difficult to place your body into a 'balance position' where your mass vector force is transferred into the snow surface through the edge and you can still control your lower limbs. Obviously and demonstrably in softer conditions this is not the same.

under a new name, And if you'll watch any slow motion clip of any good skier you'll see a nice stable torso and head whilst their legs are following every tiny imperfection. Superbly fit athletes with extra ordinary muscular response and control . . . exactly what I'm talking about rolling eyes

While we're on the subject . . . why do people who will never ski at WC level always point to race skiing to illustrate a point of technique or experience when we will NEVER need or achieve that in our skiing ability. Not only that, we will NEVER (well pretty much) use the same equipment and as the rash of recent injuries demonstrates. their equipment is far more difficult to master and control. Just 'cos you drive an BMW M5 doesn't mean it's the same as driving an F1 car, just slower.

So stop doing it, as it only demonstrates ignorance.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Masque, I have several pairs of near-WC skis (i.e. factory race and not available in any shops) and was until recently on near-WC boots.

And please don't accuse me of ignorance concerning skiing until you have skied with me.

I think you are missing the OP point. It has nothing to do with the skier being stiff, or using grossly wrong technique.

The judder in question is encountered on steeper slopes in certain snow conditions. I think it is more marked on wider skis; possibly due to higher torsion and softer torsional stiffness than on a race ski.

It is not, f'rinstance, or at least not in my experience, found on hard ice.

A really finely tuned edge, such as delivered by the boys at Sole can help too.

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Masque, we will have to agree to disagree, i think it is more difficult to control edge pressure on wider skis and this lack of control can be a contributing factor in skiers experiencing edge judder snowHead

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under a new name, I wasn't addressing you specifically just the general tendency to waffle on about racing when talking about recreational sport skiing and that is demonstrably ignorant.

The OP himself talks about "overpowering" . . . which on an Iceladic Shaman is a bit silly and illustrates that he's not in control of the ski. The only thing that will jar or "judder" a ski out of its track in a carve is the ski leaving the track and that is primarily the rider not absorbing the terrain variables allowing the ski to track smoothly. It may be body position contributing to it but that is secondary. The problem here is rider induced not equipment caused.
He also speaks of multiple incidents on differing equipment this also very strongly points to a driver problem.

Ski width is really a non-issue even at quick recreational speeds, yes some have less torsional rigidity than more piste orientated products but really the difference is proportionally minimal and only points to the skier not being able to listen to (bio-mechanically), understand and and make both the mental and physical changes the equipment requires to be used. That isn't easy for many people and is the reason for personal preference in kit. When you find a ski that suits your natural body position and movement it will flatter your style feel comfortable and seem to perform better that other skis. It's performing better because you naturally have more control of if.

"using grossly wrong technique" is the last thing I'm saying, relaxing on your skis at speed is a subtle, fine control body response to the changing conditions under your feet.

Lastly, you don't need razor edges to ski on anything but ice or a race piste, 99% of recreational slopes can be skied well on with edges like old spoons, the perennial cry of 'I need my edges sharpening' is again being used to compensate for lack of body control by try to cut a deeper run track so the skis have more room to bounce around without falling sideways away from the track to 'judder'

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skimottaret, Have you considered that what you see as difficult is just an unconscious response by your head and body to adopt your 'natural' posture on your skis. Differing ski widths require slightly differing body positions to be balanced over the insertion edge. Over time we develop a position that we feel most comfortable in . . . this applies to everything we do, even sitting in a chair. That's why some car seats are more comfortable than others . . . When we ski a different ski we have to make subtle changes on body shape to ski it properly, but the moment we stop concentrating on that we revert to our 'normal' posture and the ski will feel 'wrong' or harder to ski. It's both physically and mentally tiring. But it's not the equipment's fault, it's an inanimate object just doing its job, it's our unconscious tendency to revert to the familiar making it feel more difficult to maintain a different posture.

Perhaps I'm more aware of this as I slide so many varied and/or weird things, it's not difficult just different. Toofy Grin

Masque, Ok, fair enough, no worries.

I'm still thinking that while I completely see your point(s), I still think you're maybe addressing something different.

What I think (f)bob was talking about is what the Epic folks describe as "brutalising" the snow (or ski?).

IME it happens in very firm (and I take back what I said above about not on ice) whereby you apply more force to the ski than the edge/angle combination can handle and you get a fairly fast snatch/release sequence.

I really don't think that softening anything up will help - as this will lead into skidding - and it's not a gross absorption problem - just a fairly fast vibration.

My torso and head will be perfectly still while experiencing it I must say Twisted Evil

I definitely experience it more on my 98mm skis than my 65mm ones. Going back to torsional rigidity, I suspect that what's happening is that the ski isn't xoming completely unstuck, but that the tips, underfoot and tails are at different times.

More angulation I repeat!

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I look at it this way. The best boot/alignment set up possible won't suddenly turn you into an Expert skier, but it will make the process of acquiring expert level skills so much easier. When I see a student has an obvious boot setup issue I get them into the bootfitter to get it sorted as quickly as possible. It's hard enough learning the skills, without having your boot set up constantly fighting your efforts.

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under a new name, I think we're working toward a similar position. Yes on really steep pitches it's important to get your body mass out over the ski edge effectively increasing the force that's into and perpendicular to the snow surface to compensate for the increased lateral shear generated by gravity, speed and turn radius (centripetal). It's also harder to stay 'soft' in those conditions. But I didn't read the OP as being on 'that' steep a pitch. On anything less than an 'OMY I'm gonna die' black I'll hold that it's his inability to absorb and respond to terrain variations is the first issue to address.

We need more info from lardass himself wink

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Masque, I am sure we could go round and round on this but for me correctly set up equipment really helps me to ski better and the wrong tool for the job makes my skiing more difficult. I would say that for both competitive and rec skiers ill suited or poorly tuned equipment does them no favours. The number of people i watch on rockered fat skis skidding across the hill convinced they are "carving" reinforces this opinion. As our movements are constrained by our boots and bindings it isnt always easy to find a "natural" position if you are out of alignment from the start or trying to hold an edge with dull wide skis. I have trained 100's of skiers of all abilities and while you can adapt to anything it is difficult to excel with the wrong equipment, good skiing comes from attending to all of aspects of learning a motor skills sport ..TTPPEE

skimottaret, but you also need to learn those motor skills on the equipment you are using which seems to be Masque's point as far as I can tell. Learning to carve on piste skis isn't going to make you able to carve on fat rockered skis. fatbob doesn't sound like he has problems knowing how to carve but with carving on some specific equipment in specific circumstances. The ski in question claims to be very torsionally rigid and isn't that fat at only 110mm.

Rabble, rabble, rabble. Little Angel

You know it makes sense.

meh, Oh, I don't know,call me old fashioned, but if you can truly carve, you can carve on anything (with a side cut)... Twisted Evil

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

under a new name, I'd agree. Twisted Evil

A snowHead

A snowHead

^^^^ +1 all of this.....

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

We sorted this on page 1 so any subsequent squabbles are about something else. It's not IMO about suspension but about getting over in the edges early enough rather than muscling the pressure late in the turn. we are talking about firm "long slide" high angle pitches here.

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fatbob, horse pucky. . . you only learned to carve properly after you started to snowboard . . . Twisted Evil

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Masque, for sure. I only learned to ski properly once I done a heap of snowboarding.

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Masque, as we are getting into summer with boredom and geekiness will come into the for have a look at this http://www.wildsnow.com/379/backcountry-skiing-binding-flex-tests/

After all it is free

I don't know about you lot, but my fat powder skis don't carve so well on steep icy pitches and chatter and judder quite badly when trying. They're fine up to a certain pitch and then it all just falls apart. But I can carve steep pitches cleanly on a slalom ski, so equipment does play a significant part for me at least. Come to think of it I haven't seen anyone clean carve a fat ski on a steep black hardpack piste, but I'm sure some of you super heros can carve any ski on any pitch. It's one thing carving a fat ski on a nice soft red pitch, but on a steep icy pitch it's a whole lot harder - impossible for me anyway.

uktrailmonster, ignore the dickswinging about whether its a "pure" carve or not and conceptually at least you can imagine a fat ski that is fully on edge in part of the turn. This is obviously less easy to set up on a 120mm ski than a 65mm because the foot/ankle/knee are significantly displaced from the edge but is still possible. As to why you'd want to - well sometimes you need to do something to warm up while waiting for the refreeze to turn to corn.

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Like I said earlier in the thread, I definitely think its an edge angle issue and personaly I find it HARDER to smoothly set a fat ski at a high edge angle on hard snow than I do with a GS type ski. It's not IMPOSSIBLE, the equipment can achieve it but the movements required are bigger and less easy to make with the required subtlety.

Help!!

Edge judder

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