 Poster: A snowHead
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Masque,
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Wandering around Paris is no less dangerous than sliding around a marked and prepared piste . . . are the TO guides/leaders/hosts going to need to be qualified in some way to shepherd a bunch of fat elderly Yanks around French cities, will they be subject to the same ruling?
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OK the dangers are different in Paris and on the pistes but dangers exist in both. Please remember that ski resorts are serious high mountains where, if the weather changes or you get lost, you can be really in the dodos.
I am not sure about Paris but in London there is the blue badge scheme for qualified guides and I imagine no one will employed (and we are talking about employment here) to do it without at least a CRB check. I also doubt that any hotel, say, in the UK would be permitted to allow unqualified employees take customers out onto the fells or hills. I have been out with TO guides who didn't know their way around the resort, couldn't read a piste map (never mind a topo map) or really ski well enough to keep up with the punters. Some people seem to think that this is acceptable. I do not
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I had to go on a few courses to get my bling badges. Some of which were race coach courses. (I am now a level 2 race coach). Why? I don’t need it to teach snow-plough. The answer is simple. That’s what the powers that be decided I needed. I don’t agree with it, but that’s not relevant as I wanted the badge so I needed to go on the course(s) and pass em.
I honestly can’t see the point in my becoming a race coach as I really don’t like doing it. On the course you have to ski like a nutter (way too fast for me), but my opinions are not a good enough reason not to turn up and pass. It’s the same with the French attitude to ski guides, if you want to do it then go on the courses and pass em, then the ESF (or whoever) will not be able to stop you doing it. But it’s a futile exercise just slagging off the French rules as you don’t agree with them.
If you really want to lead a bunch of tourists around the piste then do the course(s) and stop whinging.
Oh and BTW - on piste, off piste, really "is" all the same to be legal (you need a badge) whether people like (or agree with) this or not simply doesn't matter, it's just how it is.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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johnE, I agree, there needs to be some standard set. Those needs are simple as you've pointed out and nothing more than a TO could administer in the interview/training process. To be honest I am edging toward the French POV. I've only had a couple of TO holidays and only one where a 'host' came out with us. A good skier, more than adequate to show us the resort both from his sliding skill and his general knowledge of the runs.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| johnE wrote: |
| Please remember that ski resorts are serious high mountains where, if the weather changes or you get lost, you can be really in the dodos. |
The logical extension to that, then, is nobody should be allowed on the mountain without a qualification.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Wayne, This is NOT about teaching so stop getting your panties twisted!!! This is about saying this lift goes here to there and you can get a sandwich in that hut! FFS!  This is not leading a fat numpty on hired 'Lords' to a couloir and pushing him to jump down the chute, nor to say you ski like the baѕtard child of Muffin the Mule and Andy Pandy so 'this' is what you need to do . . .
You are so far out on a limb on this that you're beginning to sound irrational . . . not good. Anywhere outside the piste boundary is verboten and yes the hosts etc. need to be qualified to an agreed standard. In resort is not the same.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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eng_ch, don't give them ideas. 
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Had a look around online for French civil responsibility in relation to snowsports, it's interesting:
Art. 1384 paragraph 1: « One is liable not only for the damages caused by one’s own misconduct, but also for the
damage caused by the misconduct of the persons for which one is responsible, and for the things
which one has within one’s charge. »
So is a host in charge of his group? The following test is in relation to liability towards novices/pupils but probably also covers liability for their actions too. Note the 'necessity' for the guide to have a diploma though:
THE SYSTEM OF LIABILITY FOR INSTRUCTORS AND GUIDES:
This concerns contractual liability derived from Article 1147, which may be brought into play in
the event of the non-fulfilment of obligations relating to safety, caution or diligence towards the
novices/pupils.
• The preliminary conditions regarding liability are:
- firstly, finding oneself in the presence of a professional, (which infers the
repetition of an act, remuneration and a diploma);
- secondly, being within a contractual situation (as opposed to being
within friends).
• The lack of diligence is registered in every moment by the services performed, for
example:
- the choice of route;
- the choice of terrain, off-piste included;
- the choice of activity, bearing in mind snow conditions and attendance
figures.
• The lack of surveillance is assessed in accordance with the novice/pupil’s age and
ability.
I don't know if anyone has ever been injured with a ski host, but perhaps the uncertainty of liability to all parties is one of the issues the French Sports Ministry are tackling with this case. Would a TO insurance policy would pay out on behalf of a rep if a punter on a hosted outing injured a French skier?
Seems there's a regular conference in Bormio on European ski law, some interesting stuff coming out of it put can only access speeches etc from 2005. Last one was Dec 15th though so they've missed this case.
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albinomountainbadger, A conference about law . . . in Italy . . . anyone see the flaw in this 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Masque wrote: |
| You are so far out on a limb on this that you're beginning to sound irrational |
To reiterate
All TO’s know that what they are doing is illegal.
Whether you or I agree with the law or not is simply irrelevant.
The law in France says you need to be either a mountain guide or a ski instructor. There are also a few other qualifications that will do, but generally they are looking instructor or guides badges. In some ways I agree; anyone who has been on a BASI course will know that some of the standards set are way too high for the job that you’ll eventually end up doing. But hey, life’s not fair. If you want to do the job then pass the tests and if you can't as you're not good enough you can always start a web thread to ask if everyone else agrees that life's a bitch
UK skiers are used to being guided/hosted/etc but the French authorities have now said they can’t as the people doing the guiding/hosting/etc are not qualified to do so. This leads to a standard reaction from some unthinking Brits – dam Frenchies what do they know, our guides/hosts/etc are only doing this or that, how dare they……
Blah Blah Blah
It really is simple - If you want to be a ski guide then pass the tests that the local authorities have decided you need. Just because you think the test are over the top for what the the job entails is totally and utterly irrelevant.
So I’ll say it again.
Everyone knows that some UK TO’s have supplied ski guides in the past.
Everyone knows that some UK TO’s have sold this as part of the package.
ALL UK TO’s have now realised (even if they didn’t already know) that this service is illegal unless undertaken by someone with the qualification that the local authorities have decided are needed.
I honestly don’t think that you need to be able to instructor level to be able to guide tourist around the piste. But the French authorities disagree with this, so my thoughts don’t matter.
If you want to be a ski guide, go on a few courses and get qualified. If you’re good enough then you’ll get a badge and be allowed to ski up and down all day with no hassle from anyone. If you not good enough then maybe the French have a point.
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eng_ch, All I ask is that people remember that the mountains are serious places where people get hurt or even killed.There is a huge difference between making you own decisions and choices and being led by someone else. Most of us are very aware of our limitations and take appropriate action.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Masque wrote: |
| This is about saying this lift goes here to there and you can get a sandwich in that hut! FFS! |
Hosting must be more than that because people wouldn't value it as much as they do (I have no experience of it but people on here say some really good things about them). If it was just saying, this piste is like this, this lift goes here etc. why would people bother with it when the lift company provides local ambassadeurs to do just that... Actually, am I wrong in assuming that all French ski areas have these?... Maybe we only have them here because we don't have TOs and their hosts! They don't ski with you, lead you anywhere or take tips, have lunch/coffee with people, but they do tell you where the lifts go, what the pistes are like, and make sure you are headed in the right direction for home if the weather suddenly closes in etc.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The habitual non-adherence to stupid rules in society is a facet of democracy and the stringent enforcement of unreasonable rules is a facet of totalitarianism.
Wayne, stop going on about instructors, they're not going to introduce this for you in Italy
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am I wrong in assuming that all French ski areas have these?
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Yes.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Wayne wrote: |
| Masque wrote: |
| You are so far out on a limb on this that you're beginning to sound irrational |
To reiterate
All TO’s know that what they are doing is illegal.
Whether you or I agree with the law or not is simply irrelevant.
The law in France says you need to be either a mountain guide or a ski instructor. There are also a few other qualifications that will do, but generally they are looking instructor or guides badges. In some ways I agree; anyone who has been on a BASI course will know that some of the standards set are way too high for the job that you’ll eventually end up doing. But hey, life’s not fair. If you want to do the job then pass the tests and if you can't as you're not good enough you can always start a web thread to ask if everyone else agrees that life's a bitch
UK skiers are used to being guided/hosted/etc but the French authorities have now said they can’t as the people doing the guiding/hosting/etc are not qualified to do so. This leads to a standard reaction from some unthinking Brits – dam Frenchies what do they know, our guides/hosts/etc are only doing this or that, how dare they……
Blah Blah Blah
It really is simple - If you want to be a ski guide then pass the tests that the local authorities have decided you need. Just because you think the test are over the top for what the the job entails is totally and utterly irrelevant.
So I’ll say it again.
Everyone knows that some UK TO’s have supplied ski guides in the past.
Everyone knows that some UK TO’s have sold this as part of the package.
ALL UK TO’s have now realised (even if they didn’t already know) that this service is illegal unless undertaken by someone with the qualification that the local authorities have decided are needed.
I honestly don’t think that you need to be able to instructor level to be able to guide tourist around the piste. But the French authorities disagree with this, so my thoughts don’t matter.
If you want to be a ski guide, go on a few courses and get qualified. If you’re good enough then you’ll get a badge and be allowed to ski up and down all day with no hassle from anyone. If you not good enough then maybe the French have a point.
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Don't disagree with this post except:
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| All TO’s know that what they are doing is illegal. |
Seems to me that we are all stalled with our points of view on the matter, therefore I will be adding nothing more to it.
I do think this court case is a good thing as it will help (fingers crossed) to make the law obvious to all concerned one way or the other and we should have a good discussion/rant when the finding are published.
Out.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Wayne wrote: |
| The law in France says you need to be either a mountain guide or a ski instructor. |
Actually, going by what albinomountainbadger wrote, I wonder if the law was written long before anyone thought of ski hosting as an activity - maybe the French never thought anyone would want such a service - and hence the law is a sledgehammer to crack a nut, being applied (now) to a situation it was never intended to cover. Thoughts?
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 11-01-13 13:46; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| johnE wrote: |
| There is a huge difference between making you own decisions and choices and being led by someone else. Most of us are very aware of our limitations and take appropriate action. |
And one of the things about hosting is that you can always bail at any time if you aren't happy with the host, and can choose to take a different route. The presence of someone who knows the area does not rob you of your critical faculties
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| miranda wrote: |
| dsoutar wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
| 1) I like ESF. A few years ago now they taught my Children very well. They taught me and my wife very well. The instructors were, mostly, charming people and we were very pleased. Most of the people who rent our apartment use ESF and we always ask about their holiday and we generally get good reports about them. I find their office staff charming and helpful. I also like the fact - and this is purely my opinion recognising I am in no way an expert - that they do have to pass the 'slalom' test, like the fact that most are French and have been in the Alps nearly all their lives. |
wtf does this have to do with TO operating a hosting service and ESF's case ? |
One might equally ask wtf this:
| dsoutar wrote: |
| the staff may well be able to pass the Eurotest, but how many actually have some sort of teaching qualification. Very few I suspect and in my experience of the ESF (admittedly some time ago) there are plenty of personnel who may indeed be fantastic skiers but are singularly lacking in the ability to pass this skill and knowledge onto the people they are supposed to be instructing. |
has to do with TO operating a hosting service and ESF's case, then!
You can't criticise emwmarine for mentioning exactly the same thing you have already mentioned in this thread just because you have a different point of view. |
Everything I would have thought. The clue is in the E of ESF which implies that they teach. If you responsible for teaching people about safety whilst skiing then your ability to teach rather than skiing is paramount one would think. If you cannot communicate the essentials then you have failed
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| johnE wrote: |
| There is a huge difference between making you own decisions and choices and being led by someone else. Most of us are very aware of our limitations and take appropriate action. |
And one of the things about hosting is that you can always bail at any time if you aren't happy with the host, and can choose to take a different route. The presence of someone who knows the area does not rob you of your critical faculties |
that's true, one time I accompanied an hosting group* the host clearly explained at various 'forks' that people could go down gently to the left or take the piste on the right with him which was a bit more complicated etc, but we'd all meet up at a visible point blah blah blah. Lot of this depends on the host though, I imagine the more hungover/jaded ones just speed about hoping the guests keep up.
Still, I wonder if his mere suggestion that you do xyz would be taken as an instruction even if he doesn't accompany you? And ultimately, you may be able to bail but what if you've no idea where else to go? - it's the host that got you there so he's responsible?
*This was back in 2008 and it was clearly stated by the TO that the host wasn't to lead with his company jacket on, and additionally had to 'lead from the rear' - perhaps that was a result of local problems in resort but I did always wonder how Mark Warner could be so obvious about it in comparison.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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In reality I think eng_ch has it right. This current situation was never envisaged by those who framed the regulations . . . can someone post them? . . . that are being used to bring this action.
edit for giving Wayne a bollocking that his subsequent post ameliorated.
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Two more points to add...
Wayne keeps saying the TOs know it's illegal - surely that's what this case is about ? OK your opinion is that it is - we shall see whether the judge has the same view on the 15 Feb
One could argue about whether the French law breaches EU law. I don't know on what point but I'm sure there's someone out there who can opine on this
I still find it laughable that this is about people being qualified correctly yet the ESF require no teaching qualification despite that being their primary function. In my eyes it renders the qualification argument redundant
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| Masque wrote: |
| In reality I think eng_ch has it right. This current situation was never envisaged by those who framed the regulations . . . can someone post them? . . . that are being used to bring this action. |
Maybe these? I can't confirm they are being used to bring this action, but they seem relevant.
| Quote: |
Pag. 14 di 23
SKI SCHOOLS AND SKI INSTRUCTORS
Guides and ski instructors are true pioneers when it comes discovering mountains and developing
the tourism industry. Theyhave progressively passed from a purely associational structure
(CHAMONIX guides’ company was established in 1821, and up until 1948 the ski masters’
diplomas were issued by the Fédération Française de Ski) to administrative protection, both in
terms of organising their profession and defining their responsibilities.
I- GENERAL OUTLINE OR THE APPLICABLE REGULATIONS :
The regulations presently derive from the Law No. 627 of 6th July 2000, which amends the Law of 16
th July 1984 which ultimately strengthens the reference to the specificity of the environment
and upholds the notion of an admittance diploma.
A- To access the profession one must first train in common law (from 3 to5 years) which
provides access to the 1st level state licence and title of national instructor; this includes
working in the glacier areas and mountaineering which both require guides.
The 2nd level licence allows the instructor to train and accompany people.
A guide’s training is governed by the National Ski and Mountaineering School in CHAMONIX
which issues the guide’s diploma, in pursuance of the ordinance of 10 May 1993. This diploma
distinguishes:
• the aspirant guide, limited to difficult routes up to an altitude of 3,500 metres and
2,000 metres for winter routes.
• the upper mountain guide who is fully qualified.
Training for cross-country skiing instructors is provided by the ENSN in PREMANON and
issues two-level state licences as per Alpine skiing. |
http://bormioforumneve.eu/3_Report/GB/Michel%20BAILLY%20lawyer.pdf
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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More from the same document (for interest):
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B- THE PRESENCE OF FOREIGN INSTRUCTORS HAS PROVOKED NUMEROUS
DISCUSSIONS.
In pursuance of the principle of free circulation of workers within the European Union, the decree
of 25th November 1996 specifies the conditions for acknowledging qualifications from the country
of origin with a declaration to the regional prefect and an aptitude test if necessary.
The decree of 4th April 1997 specifies the conditions for practising the profession in France.
The Minister for Sport provides authorisation once it has been verified that the original diploma
is the equivalent of a French one and ascertained that the applicant has a minimum of two years
experience in a European Union member state.
Even if there are no problems with other Alpine countries, the law still holds that the
administration can refuse to accept the equivalence in the event of substantial differences (e.g.
Court of Appeal of CHAMBERY 12th October 2000 for an English diploma which did not
include a technical test).
In this case the instructors and the employersare punishable under law for unlawfully exercising
the profession of instructor on the grounds of the lack of a diploma.
C- SKI SCHOOL CHARTERS
Even though the French ski schools (ESF) organise their ski instructors’ activities they are still
simple associations and not legal entities.
Nevertheless considering that they constitute real companies with a managerial structure and that
they act as mandataries for the ski instructors, numerous rulings have held actions against them
regarding admissibility of appearance and mandate to be founded.
Furthermore, a judge does not register the question of admissibility unless it is first posed, which
very rarely occurs, in that the insurance companies generally present themselves without
contesting the ski school’s cover.
The same goes for independent ski schools which are more often than not companies with a legal
entity. |
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albinomountainbadger, There's the problem immediately.
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A guide’s training is governed by the National Ski and Mountaineering School in CHAMONIX
which issues the guide’s diploma, in pursuance of the ordinance of 10 May 1993. This diploma
distinguishes:
• the aspirant guide, limited to difficult routes up to an altitude of 3,500 metres and
2,000 metres for winter routes.
• the upper mountain guide who is fully qualified.
Training for cross-country skiing instructors is provided by the ENSN in PREMANON and
issues two-level state licences as per Alpine skiing. |
There's nowt in there about environment controlled, patrolled, pisted and open to us great unwashed white roads . . . and a lot of them ARE public roads. I agree that the moment anyone employed by a company to care in ANY way for a client steps off a piste then they deserve all the crap that can fall down the chute. Otherwise this is just bollux.
If hosting ultimately requires a L2 or equivalent then it will be a new career path for those that don't want to progress all the way to BASI skigod status . . . what the TO's will do is another matter altogether.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Wayne wrote: |
I had to go on a few courses to get my bling badges. Some of which were race coach courses. (I am now a level 2 race coach). Why? I don’t need it to teach snow-plough. The answer is simple. That’s what the powers that be decided I needed. I don’t agree with it, but that’s not relevant as I wanted the badge so I needed to go on the course(s) and pass em.
I honestly can’t see the point in my becoming a race coach as I really don’t like doing it. On the course you have to ski like a nutter (way too fast for me), but my opinions are not a good enough reason not to turn up and pass. It’s the same with the French attitude to ski guides, if you want to do it then go on the courses and pass em, then the ESF (or whoever) will not be able to stop you doing it. But it’s a futile exercise just slagging off the French rules as you don’t agree with them.
If you really want to lead a bunch of tourists around the piste then do the course(s) and stop whinging.
Oh and BTW - on piste, off piste, really "is" all the same to be legal (you need a badge) whether people like (or agree with) this or not simply doesn't matter, it's just how it is. |
+1
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The stages pedagogiques, which include
― de se voir proposer diverses situations pédagogiques ;
― d'observer des situations d'apprentissage variées pour les différents publics ;
― de mettre en œuvre des situations d'apprentissage variées pour les différents publics ;
― d'encadrer les différents publics
― de parfaire leurs connaissances linguistiques au profit d'une clientèle étrangère (I know an English test in now compulsory for one of the local ESF)
sound like learning how to teach all sorts of people to me... Still not sure why a personal opinion praising ESF teaching was deemed not relevant to the discussion, but a personal opinion saying "plenty" of them are terrible teachers was entirely relevant... but, er, ok...
Whatever hosting is, lots of people on here seem to like it so I hope something is worked out to keep everyone happy.
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miranda, I think your spellchecker's boogered!
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You know it makes sense.
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
| miranda, I think your spellchecker's boogered! |
Sorry, it was in French!
A quick google translate gives:
-We 'ate all zeez eeenglish w@nkers
-We must do everyzing we can to make zer life 'orrible
-We ski like gods
-Zey ski like goats
-Zey don't even know 'ow to buy ze cheese properly
hmmm... still some dodgy spelling, but hopefully you get the drift.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Are you lot having a laugh?
Pootling around the pistes with a bunch of out of condition punters, showing them where to empty their bladders and where to top them up with whatever industrial pіѕѕ is the biere de jour, is not teaching nor guiding. So stop making that equivalence!
If it's determined that a qualification of one sort or another is warranted to be a TO host . . . fine, it may be a great new opportunity for some . . . but it's still going to be babysitting without the diapers and not teaching nor guiding.
I happen to think that there should be some degree of regulation and training in this and quite strict guidelines regarding snow, weather conditions and piste boundaries. But a teaching qualification isn't part of that unless by dictate. A recognised mountain safety on piste and First Aid certification is probably more than adequate and no less than should be expected from any TO employee entrusted with guest safety on the mountain along with the language skills to summon professional aid, to give accurate location and situation reports.
More than that would be superfluous.
(wee wee? = nice try admin)
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 11-01-13 16:29; edited 4 times in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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I predict a backlash against the ESF by the TOs.
The independent schools could suddenly find themselves a whole lot busier.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 11-01-13 16:36; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| bar shaker wrote: |
I predict a backlash against the ESF by the TOs.
The independent schools could suddenly find themselves a whole busier. |
I'd like to believe that but am cynical, certainly in the long run. TOs such as Crystal and Thomas Cook are 100% profit driven and the ESF will remain the cheapest option in many resorts, and cheaper lessons means easier commission for the TOs...
Also a lot of the independent schools don't have the same huge pool of instructors available at the drop of a hat (school holiday difficulties noted), which is how the TOs get their commission.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| bar shaker wrote: |
I predict a backlash against the ESF by the TOs.
The independent schools could suddenly find themselves a whole busier. |
Unlikely.. there aren't enough independent schools in enough resorts, of enough size for it to be possible.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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If the independents are offered the work, they will get big enough to cope with it. That's what businesses do.
When the independents are full, then the ESF will get the scraps that are left.
If the Albertville judge votes against Le Ski, the decision will not come without retribution to the ESF.
ESF are biting the hand that feeds.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Masque wrote: |
| In reality I think eng_ch has it right. This current situation was never envisaged by those who framed the regulations . . . can someone post them? . . . that are being used to bring this action. |
Maybe these? I can't confirm they are being used to bring this action, but they seem relevant.
| Quote: |
Pag. 14 di 23
SKI SCHOOLS AND SKI INSTRUCTORS
Guides and ski instructors are true pioneers when it comes discovering mountains and developing
the tourism industry. Theyhave progressively passed from a purely associational structure
(CHAMONIX guides’ company was established in 1821, and up until 1948 the ski masters’
diplomas were issued by the Fédération Française de Ski) to administrative protection, both in
terms of organising their profession and defining their responsibilities.
I- GENERAL OUTLINE OR THE APPLICABLE REGULATIONS :
The regulations presently derive from the Law No. 627 of 6th July 2000, which amends the Law of 16
th July 1984 which ultimately strengthens the reference to the specificity of the environment
and upholds the notion of an admittance diploma.
A- To access the profession one must first train in common law (from 3 to5 years) which
provides access to the 1st level state licence and title of national instructor; this includes
working in the glacier areas and mountaineering which both require guides.
The 2nd level licence allows the instructor to train and accompany people.
A guide’s training is governed by the National Ski and Mountaineering School in CHAMONIX
which issues the guide’s diploma, in pursuance of the ordinance of 10 May 1993. This diploma
distinguishes:
• the aspirant guide, limited to difficult routes up to an altitude of 3,500 metres and
2,000 metres for winter routes.
• the upper mountain guide who is fully qualified.
Training for cross-country skiing instructors is provided by the ENSN in PREMANON and
issues two-level state licences as per Alpine skiing. |
http://bormioforumneve.eu/3_Report/GB/Michel%20BAILLY%20lawyer.pdf |
Thanks for posting this. That sounds like my supposition might be heading in the right direction - the 2nd level definitely sounds like "mountain guide", not host, but I can see how an extremely strict interpretation, with the right motivation, could be "there are instructors, and mountain guides and that's all so you have to be qualified as one of those". So it'll be up to the judge to decide whether ski hosting is people working who are not instructors or mountain guides, or whether it is a different activity altogether that the legislation simply doesn't cover.
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How do certain 'small ski schools' get around their couple of instructors not having passed L4/Eurotest yet manage to charge clients for instruction in France? Is there some get-around using club membership or similar? Can the TOs do similar? Lots of L2-standard skiers around (not necessarily L2 standard teachers, but hey, that's skiing for you  )
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Sideshow_Bob, I think the TT Test Technique may not be as arduous as the Eurotest . . . someone will say. So IMIIC L2+TT allows you to teach within a school . . . not sure how big that school has to be.
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Sideshow_Bob, if you are taking pupils in as part of a club, then you can teach with an IVSI licence - which is issued by SSE in England (to their own L4s, and BASI L3 transfers have correspondence). This only allows you to teach your own club members, not anyone else's, and by the letter of the law you have to travel to and from resort with them. TOs could potentially set themselves up as clubs and then get IVSIs to act as hosts/instructors, but the travel in/out requirement may be a bit of a problem - I'm not sure acting as transfer drivers/couriers would quite cut it. IVSI is still a pretty onerous qualification to get - it's essentially ISIA, and would take a year or two's work to earn - and is still way over the top for what hosts do. Its one advantage for old lags though is that it doesn't require the ET.
L2 + TT allows you to become a stagiere and so can work on the staff of a Centre de Formation ski school - which IIRC requires at least 10 full cert (e.g. L4) instructors on the books to allow application for that status. IIRC some BASS and NewGen's have now been granted that status. TOs would not be granted CdF. The TT is easier than the ET, but is still not a walk in the park (it was a number of years ago, but as they realised there were more and more stagieres appearing, they made it harder - as recounted to me by an ex-Europa cup French slalom coach).
A "certain school in Megeve" also got dispensation through a court case, but there has been suggestion (on this thread?) that they only got that by the prosecution screwing up.
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In theory, TT is lower standard but I'm told for people with no previous slalom experience, ET is actually easier, so many Brits who aspire to work in France don't bother with TT and train/work outside France until they are fully cooked.
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slikedges, I've heard reports (in BZK?) that the French have tried excluding foreigners even if they've passed the ET and got L4, but not passed the TT. Maybe subject to another legal challenge, but the L4 without TT doesn't exactly match the letter of "equivalence".
All this talk of instructor qualifications should be completely off-topic though, as the hosting is nothing to do with "instruction" - other than by virtue of this completely unjustifiable law.
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FAQ
I passed the test and got it).
