ESF take UK tour ops to court over alleged illegal ski guiding

A snowHead

tiffin, I think we'll find out, not dismissing a possible gap in a market yet but I'm sure the ESF will do whatever it thinks it can get away with to lever a penny or two out of the TOs

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I take a different view on this. I think there is zero chance of the ESF offering a "hosting" qualification. They are not at all interested in that. In any case, it is not the ESF who are responsible for organising training courses/syllabus (syllabusi?). That's the job of the ENSA.

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rob@rar, you are probably correct and what will happen is that TO will start putting group skiing sheets up where guests sign up to meet up and ski together, there may even be some of the off duty staff interested in this i would suspect and clearly there is a chance that they may also know the mountain enough to offer some suggestions.........

or to put in another way.

A laywer goes to visit a client in london, leaves is expensive umbrella in the taxi. When he is back in the office he submits his expenses claim which covers taxi fare, train ticket, parking, lunch and the lost umbrella. A couple of days later he get the expenses form returned which says, all paid except umbrella as this is not covered under expenses policy.

Said lawyer submits next months expenses, usual stuff, taxis, trains, lunches etc with a hand written note on the bottom..
"try and find the bloody umbrella now then"

Arrrrr thank you..........

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I don't have a huge amount of sympathy for the TOs.

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emwmarine, why?

After all it is free

Timmaah, It will be for those reps who used to get out of bog scrubbing to go out on a jolly with the punters Laughing

I think that there will be greater interest in work outside France for that, time will tell.

I will be unpopular for saying this and realise it goes against the majority of the frequent posters in here.

1) I like ESF. A few years ago now they taught my Children very well. They taught me and my wife very well. The instructors were, mostly, charming people and we were very pleased. Most of the people who rent our apartment use ESF and we always ask about their holiday and we generally get good reports about them. I find their office staff charming and helpful. I also like the fact - and this is purely my opinion recognising I am in no way an expert - that they do have to pass the 'slalom' test, like the fact that most are French and have been in the Alps nearly all their lives.

I know this is very likely a minority view here but suspect it isn't amongst the wider recreational ski community. On this forum, as is generally quite common, there does seem a fairly strong anti-French and anti-French way to many of the posts.

2) Sympathy for the TOs. I haven't got anything against the TOs, they provide a much needed service and generally a pretty good service pandering to often difficult clients. However, from talking to many people who have worked for them - because of their margins it is probably fair to say that sometimes they are what could kindly be considered as demanding employers and possibly not the best payers. Again, I might be in the minority here but do I think they would stretch the envelope of what they could get away with - probably yes.

If the rules were looser around teaching - would they blur the lines between guiding and teaching - in my view probably yes.

Finally, you do see a lot of whinging about how things are out in the French Alps, yet people keep going back. My own view is that if you don't like it - don't go. Go somewhere more in line with the Bristish way of doing things like Austria.

stevomcd, I am the first to accept this may well be a minority view here. But you did ask for my view.

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emwmarine, Nothing wrong with liking the ESF but I suspect it will depend on which specific ESF and probably how recently you have dealt with them. I'm sure that there are many branches that are forward thinking and proactive rather than reactionary and protectionist, we do tend to get the reports of the latter here.

People like France because of the terrain, scale, food whatever and are prepared to tolerate the (limited) bureaucratic crap they get impacted by in order to do so. I'm sceptical of claims that a ban on "hosting" will turn punters away en masse from France because IMV it's only a minority of punters that would view the service as a "must have".

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Dwarf Vader, You mean that happy grim plastered all over your face in all those pictures was 'FAKE' Shocked

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

feef, That's exactly what I was wondering . . . I thought about shepherding septics around the Alps for a living. I've met a number who'd love to go but are terrified of the "strangeness" . . . that's their common word for it . . . of Europe. These are older and financially able to do it punters.

A snowHead

I agree with emwmarine as far as the ESF are concerned . Again , especially for our children , they have been between OK and excellent , and more to the latter.

What the TOs do is driven by profit, competition , the market , the law etc etc etc . I do however have sympathy with them as the UK travel market is so competitive it is tough to survive . It is not a business people go in to to make a fortune - certainly at the lower levels - but often becuase it is their passion/interest.

Personally my extended family look for ski hosting . The TOs and chalet operators who offer it get our business as long as they match up to the competition on the other factors. For us it has been great to have someone show us around in different groups so that our kids can go in the faster group but we can often see them at lunchtime.

We also have especially enjoyed the day out away by coach they run ,usually with a few other TO's reps - eg in Selva last year we went to Cortina and a few weeks ago when in Lech we went to Sonnenkopf.

It seems the court will prevent such hosting . So what will happen next ? I guess chalets will as someone else has said encourage guests to do it themselves with suggested printed itineries , lunch stops etc. Some may risk the " off duty " chalet person with them but that is unlikely as there is no real difference to what may be banned.

What will not happen is the ESF offering a low cost day hosting.

What some will do is never use the ESF again - like me.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Masque, Even so.. a paid-for service would be far cheaper than a full on mountain guide as you could take a larger group since you'll be staying on or near the piste. It also means you wouldn't necessarily need to be a fully qualified mountain guide either, and a reasonable instructor level qualification, with the relevant off-piste ticket would be enough. I suppose it would effectively be a more commercial version of the SCGB leaders, the question being, at what point does the cost make it more beneficial for the guests to just join the club and use that service.

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fatbob, feef, Yup the seppos could need a lot of hand-holding but not necessarily and any commercial operation shared between TO's could be viable for the TO and the hosting service. Of course it could all get shot to hell by a poor verdict and a blanket crackdown by vested interests in resorts. On the other hand, the resorts need bodies in beds to bring in money and anything that's safe and gently regulated may enhance that. I think there's a chink of light for some at the end of this tunnel. Just have to wait and see if it's just a candle at a cave-in.

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fatbob, feef, Just had a thought . . . It could be offered to sub-contract the "CLUB's" rep service . . . vicious irony Twisted Evil

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feef, "at what point does the cost make it more beneficial for the guests to just join the club and use that service" - well, calculators at the ready.

Most expensive (per person) membership according to the website seems to be £60 for an individual by direct debit. I believe in a week a member is supposed to be able to ski with a leader a couple of times (though the times I've done it that would be a massive understatement though I avoid the most popular resorts), and if one is only doing a single week of skiing per year that is £30 a day.

Of course it is possible to 'ski as a temporary member' for one day per week (which you could repeat with different leaders/resorts if you so wished) so the first day could be free and the second day then determined to be £60. At that price if you knew you would do it once, had a smaller group and wanted to go off piste you could just as easily hire a guide I guess - someone like M. Stieger in Chamonix is €350 a day for 5 people so he'd actually be cheaper than joining SCGB if you were only going to do it once.

It's easy to drop that down (multiple weeks, family memberships, joining freebies) but that's the place to start.

However, numbers can be adjusted to suit any argument!

After all it is free

emwmarine, so, lack of sympathy based on nothing relevant to the matter under discussion.

1) The TO hosts do NOT teach - whether or not the host has some kind of teaching qualification - so anything involving the ESF as a teaching organisation is completely irrelevant. Similarly (and I know you didn't make this point, but some others have) they do not go off-piste, so any arguments about leading groups into dangerous snow conditions is also irrelevant - if there are dangerous snow conditions on-piste then that's the responsibility of the pisteurs to the grand mass of skiers in resort, and nothing to do with the TOs.

2) Fine - the TOs do work to narrow margins and the hosts are probably not paid hugely. But that's not relevant to whether or not the hosts should be legally allowed to show groups of their guests around publicly open pistes. No-one is forcing anyone to be a host though, and there appears to be plenty of competition for the jobs. Fine it's not a long term career, but then neither is flipping burgers in the local McD's, but I don't see the law insisting on 3 years intensive training to be qualified to do that either. From the outside, hosting does appear to be one of the more pleasant jobs on the TO roster, and if this decision goes the wrong way I can see that either the "hosts" will end up being more general TO dogsbodies, and/or the jobs will just disappear - with greater pressure on other employees on transfer days. It'll probably be a boost to the independent transfer driver companies though - although that still doesn't do much for maintaining their gainful employment during the week.

So I have a huge amount of sympathy for the TOs on this. I've probably only used hosts once or twice, but when I did it was very pleasant - the host being a catalyst to bringing together a fun social group that wouldn't have got together if the hosting service had not existed. My day would have been less enjoyable without it, but it certainly wasn't enough to prompt me to shell out anything to employ as ESF instructor, as I wasn't after instruction. It may well be that the case goes against them, as the law appears based on the fact that the French don't understand the distinction between being led around open pistes and teaching. A clear case of the law being a complete ass - but if it's the law it's the law. TOs will just then stop offering the hosting service and everyone will be worse off (hosts will lose an enjoyable job, TOs will lose the marginal cache of making the offering, guests will lose the service, ESF will gain no/minimal extra business).

The safety argument is clearly completely specious. The only aspect here that could have any safety implications is that of group management - the hosted groups will in general be larger than random spontaneous groups of holidaymakers. This can all be handled in the training/induction courses to which Dwarf Vader gave witness.

Re the comments on the ban on hosting in St Anton made above. If you know anything at all about St Anton you'll know it's nothing to do with hosting itself, but all to do with the monopoly held in the area by the local tourist office and Arlberg Ski School. They also ban any FULL CERT instructors from operating there outside of the Arberg Ski School. There are only two exceptions to this that I know of, and they only get to operate with a huge amount of playing local politics and sucking up to the local monopolist(s).

feef, Masque unless the ESF/other schools change their charging structure, there would be no cost benefit. The problem in France is that they only have a single level of qualification, which corresponds to your grade 4 - and you need to have such an equivalence to operate independently. So they want to get paid full instructor rates, as they've worked hard for years to get it. To get that cost down to a reasonable amount, say €10//person/day (and still way more than a TO would be able to absorb), you'd need to be having groups of a couple of dozen (and if that's not a safety hazard I'm not sure what is)! So Masque, you'd need to get on that BASI course quickly and get qualified as a level 4 ASAP to run your new business - good luck with the Eurotest Wink

. The only alternative I see would be to get an IVSF licence and then you could go out with your own club members (and the strict rule is that you travel out and back with them). Ironically, when I've hired UIAGM guides in France, their rates have actually been noticeably lower than the instructor rates. The one group that would maybe have a lower employment cost would be stagieres, instructors in training, but they would need to be employed by a CdF - which is essentially only the ESF - and we're back to square one again.

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yes, but you need to consider the overheads.. additional training, accomodation, lift-pass, insurance... that's what I mean. I'm not convinced it'd be viable on a suitable scale to make it economical for the guests not just to become a member and use the leader service

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GrahamN, and who pooped in your slippers this morning? wink

It's just blue-sky thinking and the EuroTest is brown-trouser dreaming. Of course the ESF action is specious and they will most likely succeed, but there has to be a rationale behind it. I cannot believe that it is just pique. All talk of safety etc. is bollux.

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You know it makes sense.

Masque,

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

emwmarine, I have nothing against ESF either. They have their issues and I probably go elsewhere for anything other than kids' group lessons if I was booking instruction for myself, but all in all, I don't have a problem with them at all.

Re. TO's, well there are all different kinds of TOs, from very small ones (like myself!) through to massive multi-nationals. It's hard therefore to make generalisations. I disagree with you re. instruction though - the rules are clear and everyone knows what they are. No TO "hosts" are doing any instruction (unless they're really daft). If the rules were less strict then maybe TOs would indeed act differently - but then it would be legit, so what's the problem?

For my own particular situation, I do find the "safety" argument quite funny. I live in the Tarentaise and often go to La Rosiere and ski across to La Thuile. Last winter, I did some work teaching snowboarding, based in La Thuile (for Interski). So if I start on the Italian side and ski to la Rosiere while wearing an Interski uniform, then I'm safe! Woohoo! However, if I start on the French side then clearly I'm a dangerous menace! Evil or Very Mad

Not trying to argue, rules is rules, but it does make me smile (ruefully) sometimes.

A snowHead

eng_ch, monopolies are frowned on, but can be allowed to exist if the monopoly can be "justified" in some way (e.g. patents, trade marks, copyright)

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

As people have said, the ESF is claiming safety issues etc. and will probably be successful, but what do they gain from this? It can't just be some pique in prestige to their brand. It's more than clear that the 'hosts' are not instruction or wandering off the piste. If anything going out and sliding with a well skiing host can only persuade those that may be struggling a bit to keep up or adnire the skills of the host to go take lessons from the ESF. I don't see any potential benefit to the ESF from this. It may well impact in some way on bed occupancy as punters head off to new places where they'll get an apparent better value from their TOs.

I really can't believe that at the end of this there is a simple 'no win' for anyone blanket ban and I still see an issue for the 'Club' as although it may be a 'member service' the club also operates as a TO and invites non-members to be led.

There has to be summat murky under the crust of 'public safety qualification'

[/conspiracy theory]

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bear in mind that it wasn't the ESF that brought the case, they were introduced by the local government agency as a Partie Civile as they have an interest in the outcome.

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stevomcd,

I got asked to give the reasons for my opinion and I gave it. I think your points are well made other than perhaps the Italian one. Having worked and lived in Italy I am not sure they are a good example to hold up in terms of the logic around any of their rules or regulations. Particularly involving health and safety.

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Masque, they think those people skiing about the pistes with a TO host will book lessons or mountain guides instead (this view stated by the head of the ESF here in 2Alpes). They are clearly entirely wrong, but there's no telling them that. In fact it will merely lose them a small amount of revenue, as one of the things ski hosts frequently do is suggest to guests that they might benefit from a private lesson.

All that's going to happen here is that instructors lost a bit of cash and TO staff keep doing exactly the same as usual, only wearing their own jackets. This is what happened last time, and why I spent my first season ski guiding incognito. Whole thing is pointless.

After all it is free

Lizzard, I can see TOs specifying a helmet and backpack colour/style for their . . . ahem . . . staff. And it will be completely coincidental that none of the TOs happen to match wink

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Masque, more likely a bulk discount negotiated on said equipment for a less popular colour-way, then it's pure coincidence if they all wear the same

I think it's very easy to imagine why the ESF/French are doing this. Just insert "Brit" instead and imagine the shores of our hallowed land being "invaded" by "unqualified" workers taking peanuts for pay and taking all "our" work.

Help!!

ESF take UK tour ops to court over alleged illegal ski guiding

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