 Poster: A snowHead
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David Goldsmith,
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| PJSki, you're making a mess of the thread. You've attributed a quote above to Bode Swiller, when in fact the words are your own. |
If you were truly paying attention, you would have noticed that that wasn't entirely my own fault.
So to your argument regarding point 1:
I think you persevere a problem that shouldn't really exist. Although it clearly fits in with your agenda. But I think the insurance company are a higher and better informed authority than you are in this instance.
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| I've obviously extracted and summarised there, and recommend that the link above is studied in full. I don't wish to diminish the efforts and input provided on the course, but this is a tiny fraction of what an instructor or guide would be put through. |
In terms of what a guide goes through, yes. But seems to me the Ski Club might have, at least in part, copied what BASI are doing. And they are even using BASI trainers and mountain guides to do it! So we can add two more stamps of approval, that of BASI trainers and guides, to that of the insurance company.
You're entitled to your lay opinion, of course, but it's just that.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar,
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| Isn't there a better place to discuss how the Ski Club should be run? |
spot on, and I am not the only one who has suggested it. But as you pointed out in another thread, sometimes perceptions or opinions do need challenging - lest others perceive silence as meaning agreement. And I believe DG did once post that he assumed a lack of response signified agreement. The trouble is - with DG - you keep going round the same circular argument and "interesting" interpretations again and again and again...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Goldsmith,
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| You've told us it's costing you £360 to fly to Geneva. So what? The Ski Club pays for rep flights according to what they cost, with a cap that is a fraction of the figure you've quoted. |
But you have provided no figures. You've not given a fact based comparison between air fares over this period. Certainly I remember paying less than that flying BA around that time.
Just been sent a message from someone in the know who has pointed out the in 1993 the resorts paid for everything bar flights for the rep. But now they only generally provide a flit pass. This leaves the Ski Club having to pay for not only travel but accommodation and food too.
So as far as I'm concerned that accounts for the higher cost. Where are you suggesting the extra money has gone?
I think your analysis of data is highly dubious and seems to be based on agenda rather than truth. Personally I don't think you should be allowed to spend time with vulnerable data. The data is clearly put at risk if you are left alone with it and there is a high risk that it may become corrupted. I suggest someone contacts Data Protection Services or Dataline. My database told me about people like you!
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 21-01-09 13:47; edited 2 times in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| But as you pointed out in another thread, sometimes perceptions or opinions do need challenging - lest others perceive silence as meaning agreement. |
Touché 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| PJSki wrote: |
Just been sent a message from someone in the know who has pointed out the in 1993 the resorts paid for everything bar flights for the rep. But now they only generally provide a flit pass. This leaves the Ski Club having to pay for not only travel but accommodation and food too. |
Well done. Your source is correct (the same one who provided you with an email from a SCGB director's mailbox?).
I don't know the detail, but it's certainly been confirmed by the Chief Exec - Caroline Stuart-Taylor - that the Club is now picking up the tab for a high proportion of repping expenses in some resorts. Let's take a look at the cost data again, with a little more chronological info:
Ski/resort operations costs
1992-3 £72k
1995-6 £95k
2004-5 £185k
2005-6 £219k
2006-7 £227k
2007-8 £275k
So we've seen an escalation of £203k over 15 years, against a backdrop of falling airfares. This suggests that the non-travel costs of the Club are over £200,000 per annum, in the resorts where hospitality is no longer provided.
Why is it no longer provided? Obviously one would have to go to the tourist directors of the resorts concerned, but I fear that a historical bond of goodwill between some of these resorts and the Club has been under strain. British skiers used to be a less complicated and more predictable crowd. Nowadays, the Club sits within a highly-complex web of international ski tourism, with tourist offices thinking in new ways, choosing from a multitude of options in how to spend their marketing budgets. Perhaps the Club's local rep cannot always convince the local TO that his/her presence is delivering the numbers of new tourists that make the difference.
Conversely, looking at this data, it would not surprise me if the SCGB is paying around £10,000 per annum to station a rep in some resorts (assuming that some of them are still providing free accommodation). Therefore it is not unreasonable to question whether this expenditure is delivering value for money to subscription payers, who are less than 20% probable of skiing with a rep in any given season.
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David Goldsmith,
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| Therefore it is not unreasonable to question whether this expenditure is delivering value for money to subscription payers, who are less than 20% probable of skiing with a rep in any given season. |
Not an unreasonable question to ask, no. But the problems arise when you don't get the agreement you seek. It's been pointed out, for example, that you have claimed to be the 'spokesperson for the silent majority'. This is where, I'm afraid, you break the rules of fair and reasoned debate.
Still waiting for the proof that flying was more expensive in 93.
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easyJet was founded in 1995. Ryanair was founded a decade earlier - 1985 - but I don't think its impact on skiers' airfares was felt until after easyJet began.
This doesn't directly answer your question, but I imagine these two carriers have been the primary influence in reducing skiers' airfares since the mid-1990s.
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PJSki, I am still waiting for his answer about how he thinks snowHeads should get to europe to ski...
Get to the back of the queue.... 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Goldsmith, where's the proof? What you imagine is irrelevant! But at least you now admit, seemingly, that you don't know what the facts are.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| ... it is not unreasonable to question whether this expenditure is delivering value for money to subscription payers.... |
Don't the SCGB ask themselves that question constantly? Of the repping service and every other service they provide? If they expect to get their hands on my £ they should be doing so. At the moment they're not getting my £ but if/when I do go back it will be because of the reps.
I guess others, even some of their own members, will ask themselves the same questions about the relative value of the services and come to different conclusion. As long as they please most of the people most of the time though they'll do alright as an organisation.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| PJSki, I am still waiting for his answer about how he thinks snowHeads should get to europe to ski... |
Sorry. We hope to board you on this aircraft/ferry/train/coach/shuttle/cattlewagon shortly.
I've no wish to advise snowHeads on how they "should get to Europe". I make my choices. You're welcome to make yours.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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David Goldsmith, you have lectured us about the environmental impact of flying - and recently expressed surprise that some snowHeads seemed to think nuclear energy is acceptable. See here -
I think this is a fair question - and your attempts to avoid it speak volumes. 
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| PJSki wrote: |
David Goldsmith,
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| You've told us it's costing you £360 to fly to Geneva. So what? The Ski Club pays for rep flights according to what they cost, with a cap that is a fraction of the figure you've quoted. |
But you have provided no figures. You've not given a fact based comparison between air fares over this period. Certainly I remember paying less than that flying BA around that time.
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I suspect your memory may be flawed here, but it is difficult to be sure because historical airfare figures are not easy to find. I do remember the prices of airfares being prohibitively expensive, particularly when compared with package holiday prices.
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You know it makes sense.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
David Goldsmith, you have lectured us about the environmental impact of flying - and recently expressed surprise that some snowHeads seemed to think nuclear energy is acceptable. See here -
I think this is a fair question - and your attempts to avoid it speak volumes. |
He has answered it, in the only rational way he can unless he actually wants people to be forced into using only specific methods of travel.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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alex_heney, no he hasn't. He has told us he doesn't have a car, and implies he does not approve of flying or of nuclear powered trains.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| alex_heney, no he hasn't. He has told us he doesn't have a car, and implies he does not approve of flying or of nuclear powered trains. |
He most certainly has.
"I've no wish to advise snowHeads on how they "should get to Europe". I make my choices. You're welcome to make yours."
What he does is irrelevant. As he rightly says, his choice should not affect others.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
David Goldsmith,
| Quote: |
| You've told us it's costing you £360 to fly to Geneva. So what? The Ski Club pays for rep flights according to what they cost, with a cap that is a fraction of the figure you've quoted. |
But you have provided no figures. You've not given a fact based comparison between air fares over this period. Certainly I remember paying less than that flying BA around that time.
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I suspect your memory may be flawed here, but it is difficult to be sure because historical airfare figures are not easy to find. I do remember the prices of airfares being prohibitively expensive, particularly when compared with package holiday prices. |
Well, the figure I seem to remember was about £150 for a BA return ticket to Geneva in about 91/2. If flying is so cheap today, then why all the threads complaining about additional charges? Sure, you can fly cheap, but not if want to carry a load of gear, like skiers and boarders do.
So I'm afraid David seems to have introduced a falsehood into the debate about repping costs.
Now I note he can't get to the Alps without breaking his own environmental code. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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alex_heney,
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| What he does is irrelevant. As he rightly says, his choice should not affect others. |
I assume he would want his choice to affect Ski Club reps?
David, have you ever lobbied the Ski Club regarding how reps travel? If you were in charge, would you stop them from flying, for example?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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stoatsbrother, what we tend to see from David are a set of beliefs that are carved in stone and supported by nothing resembling a fact. Pretty much how a lot of politicians, journalists and at least one flame warrior operate.
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| Stone Deaf is one of the few truly invincible Warriors because nothing can shatter his impenetrable armor of non recognition. His primitive battle strategy is maddening effective; he simply refuses to acknowledge any arguments he doesn't like. Kung-Fu Master can hammer away with devastating blows, Cyber Sisters can screech in full throat and Profundus Maximus can expound until he drops, but Stone Deaf remains utterly oblivious as he advances his dogged and often repetitious attacks. In the early stages of battle a wide array of Warriors will fling themselves at Stone Deaf, but inevitably they fall back exahusted or lose interest when they see that their best weapons have no effect. His only real enemy is Admin, who has the power to eject him from the discussion forum. |
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| PJSki wrote: |
Well, the figure I seem to remember was about £150 for a BA return ticket to Geneva in about 91/2. If flying is so cheap today, then why all the threads complaining about additional charges? Sure, you can fly cheap, but not if want to carry a load of gear, like skiers and boarders do.
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The threads are not complaining about the price of flying overall, but rather about the disingenuous way they are advertised at a significantly lower price even than the cheap rpice which is actually achievable.
Now I haven't looked at prices to Geneva specifically, but last year when I was evaluating the DIY alternative, I fully priced up an Easyjet flight Bristol - Innsbruck, and was able to get the total including skis plus one other piece of hold luggage for £54 return (I still would only just have matched the TO price by the time I looked at transfer costs and an equivalent hotel, so I took the TO). This year, I priced up one Ryanair flignt to Bergamo (including skis and hold luggage) at £86 return for a date late in January.
Last September I actually took a Ryanair flight BRS - Bergamo, which cost us £114 each return - one piece of hold luggage each but no skis. It would have been £60 cheaper if we had come back one day later.
£150 for a BA return flight is quite a bit more, particularly when you take inflation into account. It still seems a lot lower than any prices I seem to recall from that time, but I never actually bought any so I could be wrong.
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stoatsbrother, I've really no concern in how you get to a ski resort. You can taunt me as much as you like but that's my genuine position. Honest. I only gave up using planes to go skiing a few years back, and I intend to only use only trains or buses/coaches in future (as per the last 3 ski trips), but it's each to their own as far as I'm concerned.
I am on record in asking the Club to clarify how rep travel arrangements have changed since the Club advised skiers that the use of trains was preferable to planes for reducing carbon emissions.
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Reverting to topic, one thing which has not been mentioned to date - but which could be influential - is the fact that that the SCGB has a new treasurer, Steven Brabbs. Depending on his political standpoint on these matters he may wish to influence how much money is spent on the repping service and maybe adopt a cost-effectiveness analysis to aid the Council in determining budgets generally.
There has been a rapid turnaround in SCGB treasurers in recent years: Michael Bound (elected 2005), Robert Farquharson (elected 2007) and Steven Brabbs (elected 2008). Before 2005 the late Fred Irish was treasurer for (I think) 14 continuous years.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| .........There has been a rapid turnaround in SCGB treasurers in recent years...... |
I'm not surprised. Stressful and time-consuming job. The club was lucky it had Fred Irish for so long. Way OT, of course.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Goldsmith, where's the proof that the train, with all the infrastructure, produces less Co2 than the plane? I want to see figures for the construction and maintenance of the railway lines. Obviously a lot of steel and concrete go into the rail network. As you know steel and concrete manufacture and distribution produces an enormous amount of Co2.
I'm told you advised the Ski Club to advice on taking the train. So let's have all the scientific data you examined before you came to your collective decision.
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| Reverting to topic |
The cost of the reps is not on topic.
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PJSki,
Eurostar CO2 emissions train/air comparisons
I can't vouch for the accuracy of the data in that link, but it's a starting point from which you could investigate further.
It's not correct that I personally advised the Ski Club to advise on taking the train. I was a member of the SCGB Environmental Working Group, which helped to draft the Club's environmental code, approved by Council before publication:
What can you do? [SCGB 'Seven Steps to Preserve the Mountains]
What does the Ski Club do?[SCGB 'Respect the Mountain' campaign]
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NB above Eurostar link doesn't work. Google: "Eurostar CO2"
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Wed 21-01-09 17:08; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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PJSki, you're onto a looser with that line my friend, Electric Trains are far more enviromentally friendly than passenger aircraft, Whilst a lot of steel and concrete do indeed go into railways they also go into Airports. Large runways are typically 15-18" deep plus all the additional structures, Railways use a lot of steel in the tracks but that at least can always be recycled at the end of its life and made into new tracks, in general terms there is probably little difference between infrastructure enviromental costs between the two.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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[Mods: I think the Eurostar link doesn't work because of a hot-link generated by the word 'Eurostar' on snowHeads.]
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You know it makes sense.
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Funnily enough, it's not. The one I got on Google is headed 'Green Eurostar', but I'm having trouble hyperlinking it here.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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That's the one!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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D G Orf
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| you're onto a looser with that line my friend, |
Actually, I think you'll find it remains a highly debatable point. Without knowing the tonnage involved we are just guessing. It seems David just went on figures that excluded infrastructure.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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A long long time ago, in a land far far away (Derby) a man calling himself Alastair Pink innocently wrote: "I received a letter from Ski Club of Great Britain today...." and the rest, as they say, is history.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Thanks for the link. This part is interesting:
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The research was carried out by a consortium of Paul Watkiss Associates and AEA Technology Environment. It uses detailed data on electricity supplies, power station emissions and transmission losses; Eurostar and airline load factors; and the range of aircraft and engine types and emissions.
The figures are the most detailed ever produced and are based on actual passenger numbers, exact distances of rail and air routes, actual aircraft types in use on different routes, and the mix of electricity sources used by Eurostar trains.
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No mention of infrastructure. Now I wonder why that was?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| A long long time ago, in a land far far away (Derby) a man calling himself Alastair Pink innocently wrote: "I received a letter from Ski Club of Great Britain today...." and the rest, as they say, is history. |
If you have met Alastair, you will know that he gives the appearance of being a benign affable chap. He opened this thread was to prove he has a mischievous side. 
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 21-01-09 17:43; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| PJSki wrote: |
Thanks for the link. This part is interesting:
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The research was carried out by a consortium of Paul Watkiss Associates and AEA Technology Environment. It uses detailed data on electricity supplies, power station emissions and transmission losses; Eurostar and airline load factors; and the range of aircraft and engine types and emissions.
The figures are the most detailed ever produced and are based on actual passenger numbers, exact distances of rail and air routes, actual aircraft types in use on different routes, and the mix of electricity sources used by Eurostar trains.
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No mention of infrastructure. Now I wonder why that was? |
Because when you amortise it over the lifetime of the structures, it is probably an insignificant part of the environmental cost, for both air traffic and rail traffic.
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alex_heney, key word there being 'probably'. The tracks seem to need to maintained every Sunday around here, so I do wonder what the full figures for rail are.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 21-01-09 17:48; edited 1 time in total
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PJSki, I can't comment on the UK but in the US the PCA Portland cement association gives a few clues, in 1995 1.1 M Metric tons of cement were used just for Runways, that was up 22% on the previous decade.
Note that very few studies ever bring up noise polution, now I've lived in a house with a railway line at the end of the garden and I've also worked on an airport industrial estate and I know which is the more unplesant, it isn't the train
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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D G Orf, well, with nothing to compare that figure to, we are still in the dark.
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PJSki, sadly a lot of the information is unavailable to the public, however I'm sure that if you are really interested and have the time you could use the Fredom of Infrormation act to get the Data for UK railways and airports, although to be fair you probably need to get the information over the last decade as obviously new airports are not built every year nor are entire rail routes
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FAQ
