BASI sued for £500 000

A snowHead

http://www.planetski.eu/news/6942
This could be painful for someone.

A snowHead

my understanding is that he threatened such legal procedures long before being expelled as a member.
get your pop corn out - the only winner will be the lawyers.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@jbob, presumably the BASI membership in increased membership fees (rather than the BASI directors responsible) if Simon Butler wins his case...

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I guess BASI has legal insurance - in which case it should have consulted their insurers.

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It is judgement day today for sb in chambery, will he still be a free man tomorrow, maybe he can share a cell with the head of the esf megeve

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After all it is free

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comment withdrawn until we have a official comment.

Where is TTT Puzzled

You know it makes sense.

That's a surprise. I think SB was expecting to lose at the Court and was ready to appeal to the next level of the French judicial system. Anyone (davidof?) able to explain what this judgement means?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

If I read it right the court has overturned some of the previous judgement and bounced the rest up to the Administrative court in Lyon not sure what parts are overturned and what parts go on up the line, but it would appear (at first glance) that it his his qualifications to teach in France that are the bit going to the next court.

Of course this is where things get interesting as depending on what bits of the ruling have been overturned it might be that BASI could have banned him before the workings in the system had run their process at which point things may look very bad for BASI when the case gets to court ......

However expect this to run and run, as an outsider it would appear to me that BASI have failed to support its members properly and may well have done a deal with the French (in particular) that was perhaps not in it's own members best interests ..

A snowHead

SIMON BUTLER: FRENCH COURT SUSPENDS ACTION

This Wednesday, April 29 , the Court of Appeal of Chambéry decided to stay proceedings in the case of the British ski instructor accused of illegally teaching in Megève in Haute-Savoie , pending a judgment of the Administrative Court Lyon.

His decision was referred to the December 9 date as may be amended if the administrative court had not made a decision by then.

Simon Butler, 52, was sentenced June 16, 2014 in the first instance by the Criminal Court of Bonneville, in Haute-Savoie, to 30,000 euro fine for teaching skiing without the necessary qualifications.

He had appealed. The court also had before a previous conviction dating back to 14 November 2013: Simon Butler was then sentenced to six months suspended sentence and 12,000 euro fine.

For these two convictions, the court overturned part of the trial judgments and decided to suspend its decision to predicate offenses, ie the exercise of the ski instructor function without the required qualifications and employment of people without the necessary qualifications.

Holder of the highest level of ski instructor qualification in the UK, Simon Butler expects to work in France without having to pass new exams. He claims to have European legislation on its side and demands of an agreement signed in February 2012 providing for automatic recognition of professional cards between European countries.

The French government considers instead that Simon Butler diplomas do not allow it "to ensure safe teaching alpine skiing" and must complete his training by two European tests, and baptized Eurotest Eurosécurité.

The defense of Mr. Butler grabbed the administrative court to challenge the reading of the administration but no hearing date has yet been set. "This is a big step in the right direction. We can only be happy," responded Mr. Butler Wednesday. "We finally begins to the right, over politics," said Jean-Yves Lapeyrere, secretary of the European Confederation of employers of outdoor (EC-OE), which defends Mr. Butler.

According to him, "the Sports Ministry is not to lose its monopoly certification" and "hunted all who have not the French qualification" in any activity whatsoever, in violation of European law. "For years, we do believe that it is the citizens who are bandits. Our view is to say that it is the French officials who are outside the law, who cheat," a-t- he adds.

A snowHead

> If I read it right the court has overturned some of the previous judgement and bounced the rest up to the Administrative court in Lyon not sure what parts are overturned and what parts go on up the line

it is not "up the line". The Administrative court is an entirely seperate track. If the case is in the Tribunal Administratif it is at the same level as the Bonneville court and if it is in the Cour Administrative it is on the same level as Chambery. The administrative court is where you sue the government or its institutions. They deal with stuff like planning, asylum seekeers and obviously the legality of the French legislation regarding ski instructing. On the face of it it seems to be a bit of a coup for Mr Butler, at least in the short term. Lyon may be less concerned about the sensibilities of the ESF and Savoyard ski instructors.

However it could take a few years for the first trial to be held (up to 5 maybe) and then there is a whole appeals process. You can be looking at 20 years in some cases! By which time the laws and legal framework will have evolved.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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@davidof, thanks. Any idea if SB is allowed to work while waiting for the Administrative Court to process his case?

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I would have thought a court judgment would remain in force unless and until it is overturned by a higher one - but I'll be interested to see davidof's comment.

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Im not sure whos side I stand on with this. On one side I see all sorts of people travelling through europe working freely, and I thought thats the point of the EU. However in construction, whilst we allow workers from any country we still require them to hold the likes of CSCS cards to prove they have the required skills and can work safely. Certainly a tricky case and whatever happens it will certainly set the scene going forward.

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@achilles, AIUI, elements of the original judgement were overturned, while the rest of the case is deferred. Specifically, it has been found that correct declarations were made, containing all the necessary information to be evaluated. Given that they were originally considered incorrect, the subsequent procedure, laid down by law, to assess the declarations was not carried out by the administration. Therefore, it is not legally established, right now, whether the defendants have sufficient qualifications and/or experience, to carry out paid-for ski instruction. I believe that the law says that, by default, declarers are permitted to carry out their trade in these circumstances.

@laundryman, thanks. Intriguing.

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I'm too cheap to pay for the subscription but (Google translated) the bit I can get from the Dauphine say, "Repeatedly condemned without qualification to exercise their profession ski instructor in the popular resort of Megève, the British national Simon Butler won a round yesterday in Chambéry Appeal Court"

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The French move sounds positive, although I'm sure they're not in a rush to open their market to competition.

I don't know who's running BASI, but surely it should be producing world class instructors, not second rate people who have to be checked out by old French blokes. It should also be representing the interests of those instructors. The fact that one instructor is litigating against them as a result of their failure to do that is perhaps an opportunity to wake up and smell the coffee?

You know it makes sense.

@davidof,

does that make them more or less partial?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

this crosses over with the thread on the head of the ESF in Megeve beating the c**p out of an ESF instructor from meribel who is one of the group thats winning the court case over early (compulsory) retirement, bumping the older guys down the list for 'private' tuition as (they argue) their contracts are less onourous than the new ones which see ESF instructors paying upto 30% commision to the local ESF franchise for all work they undertake. (as opposed to 4% in the old contract) seems the Megeve head got a bit arsey over having his franchises (ESF are mostly franchises) income cut!!!!!!!! so its not just the Brits theyre against Smile

onward and upward for a fair and balanced system in europe .... Toofy Grin

A snowHead

There is. France and EU law is about recognition of equivalent professional qualifications and allows fluency in the local language to be a requirement. The French do recognise equivalent professional qualifications but don't impose the language requirement which they could. EU law is not about people who are not fully professionally qualified without equivalent professional qualifications. In the private sector in my business people do not have the opportunity to work elsewhere in Europe including UK unless they are fully professionally qualified, having passed all the exams and have the requiste local language skills. As always said this is about money. The law is about professionals making money not one individual making money by using workers with lower qualifications than the locals.

A snowHead

^ The ESF (and other large schools) use unqualified (cheap), instructors, thanks to a discriminatory French law. This dispute, and the internal French dispute about age discrimination, is about who determines who gets the money, the bosses of a syndicate or the market.

Edit: though one side is operating under the delusion that the size of the cake is fixed.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@laundryman, it is not dicrimatory - the same law applies to everyone. Yes you do have to pass a test to prove you are a decent but not amazing skier to work in France just as people have to pass tests to prove competence in the private sector.

The case does give the lie to the claim that SB is doing this for BASI members. BASI is a members organisation and he is suing the members so he is doing this for his own wallet not the members. All the numerous members I know are perfectly happy with the current situation. They are not happy with SB and his supporters. They recognise the reality of their skiing and instructing ability. The members recently decided to vote for a fully qualified. It is obvious to anyone who follows the FB debate that this is all about a small minority with what can be best described as personal issues. The level of xenophobia is very unsavoury. I have heard some very disturbing stories from former customers of SB.

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We have similar rules in the UK in my profession to ensure appropriate training. SB does not have one BASI trainer let alone 10.

He could have done his CAPA or ET then there would be no debate that he was equivalent to locals and no need to go to the courts. He chose to be take an aggressive stance with locals and his organisation. He comes across as a stubborn confrontational individual who has difficulty perceiving the views of the majority.

There is not a significant number of basi members eager to snow plough for minimum wages. If they want to there are opportunities elsewhere so no issue for majority.

Some of the comments from SB and his associates on FB put them in a very poor light and are there for all to see. It is the same few people. They also make plenty of innuendo allegations. I have heard good things about the product but there are clearly some personal issues and inappropriate behaviour which I won't repeat in the same way as SB supporters have made personal attacks against BASI members.

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@TTT, from what I understand and in fairness to Simon Butler, instructors who were qualified to teach in France prior to the introduction of the Eurotest, were exempt from having to take the Eurotest (grandfather rights). These grandfather rights extended to both French and foreign instructors and Simon Butler it appears would have qualified as he seems to have reached the highest level of instruction prior to to the cut-off date.

I'd love to know why an instructor wouldn't have exercised this right - but Simon Butler seems to have come unstuck because of admin "problem", rather than not being properly qualified at the time.

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It is best not to believe anything from the SB propoganda machine because they deal in half truths I have found. It is true that there was a grandfather exemption from the ET. But what they fail to mention is that there was a precurser known as the capa which all the french and most British fully qualified instructors took and passed. There was a deal at the time when some older British instructors without the CAPA could also apply for grandfather rights. SB would say he didn't get details and I have been informed that he did not apply because he was against the process in principle. It is hard to believe that SB did not know what was going on. I understand he was always a difficult individual. So it is true that he holds an equivalent qualification to some older basi members but he does not hold an equivalent qualification to the French because he chose not to do the test that all French and most British of that generation did. SB is a complete one off here. Everyone else who wanted to work in France at the time sorted it out apart from SB. This one off point concerning SBs own qualification is a grey area and I understand that there is more to come out on this. I'm surprised more hasn't but I guess that is due to the court cases.

What is clearer is using lower qualified staff which is part of the dispute with the French and the basis of the dispute with BASI. EU law only covers the rights of fully qualified. The French and other alpine countries have agreed a rule that allows them to require the ET. The French, BASI, other major alpine countries and EU agree that ski instructing is legally a regulated occupation. SB has his team has been convicted of breaking these regulations as well as local employment law with regard to the staff he employs. There are some that think that the rules are too strict. The French and other alpine nations think that you should be a good skier to be a ski instructor. I agree. They argue that the standards required is equivalent to a racer which is nonsense because the standard required is a good club skier and nothing compared to a pro. There is a legitimate debate about whether the laws SB has been convicted of breaking are too strict though as most people in the industry view level 3 as a serious qualification but that is not covered by EU law yet and is one for the future. SB was also using level 2s. There are some who think the market should decide. They ignore the fact that there are reasons why society has laws, rules and governing bodies. They ignore that customers do not always have suffecient info to make informed decisions and the safety aspects. This is clearly so as many people use lower qualified staff in other countries when everyone in the industry knows only the people who don't know better use these organisations as you can get better qualified instruction for the same price elsewhere. There are no guarantees but generally the standard of instruction does go with the qualification. There is no way I would pay for someone who even a rubbish skier like me can out ski. It is a valid debate though. I would not believe the one sided SB supporters though. His few supporters on FB are clearly motivated by personal issues who do SB argument no favours with one honourable exception who seems to be distancing himself from the hardliners.

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I agree that the different systems are at the heart of the dispute. EU rules only recognise the top level with ET and EMS though. The EU states that countries not just France can set their own regulations. They just have to recognise equivalent qualifications to their own. They do. The UK has no legal right to impose their own lower standards on countries with higher standards. They can also impose a language test. I understand that SB has not have enough decency and respect to learn the local language. He certainly would not be employed in my profession in another country for failing to pass the exams and learn the local language. The problem is SB.

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BASI sued for £500 000

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