 Poster: A snowHead
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French justice may grind exceeding slow, but the judiciary has demonstrated its independence.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| laundryman wrote: |
| French justice may grind exceeding slow, but the judiciary has demonstrated its independence. |
I never did understand those who championed the opposite view on legal grounds. Shame it's probably a Pyrrhic victory.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| 3Valleys wrote: |
| Thanks - I think the ruling was only given today which explains why I couldn't find it earlier, it's all over our local news here in the 3V now. The headline translates more like 'An English ski instructor (Simon Butler) has won the [first] leg or first round.Looking forward to seeing how this one pans out . . . . . |
It could affect anyone wanting to work in the Alps, at least with the highest level BASI/German/Dutch etc qualification. The Eurotest appears dead unless the French state appeals.
The Administrative court system doesn't exist in the UK, it is where you sue the French state if you believe they've made a legal error.
Of course BASI could have done all this on member's behalves, years ago.
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There could still be a "Catch 22" twist in this tale.
The civil case has found that the authorities were wrong not to issue the "permit".
The criminal court may yet find him guilty of teaching without the permit even though the permit should have been issued, he didn't have one.
In a very similar way to car tax used to be in the UK. The offence was of "not displaying car tax" it didn't matter that the car was taxed.
The criminal court may say the offence concerns not having the permit, the reason why being irrelevant. No permit = Guilty.
This could now affect the BASI outcome in that they could not be held to blame for the actions of the French in not issuing the permit.
I'm not saying that it will turn out this way just that there may yet be a few surprises.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| davidof wrote: |
| ... unless the French state appeals. |
Is it common for the the French government to appeal a decision against them in th Administrative Court?
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| Timc wrote: |
There could still be a "Catch 22" twist in this tale.
The civil case has found that the authorities were wrong not to issue the "permit".
The criminal court may yet find him guilty of teaching without the permit even though the permit should have been issued, he didn't have one.
In a very similar way to car tax used to be in the UK. The offence was of "not displaying car tax" it didn't matter that the car was taxed.
The criminal court may say the offence concerns not having the permit, the reason why being irrelevant. No permit = Guilty.
This could now affect the BASI outcome in that they could not be held to blame for the actions of the French in not issuing the permit.
I'm not saying that it will turn out this way just that there may yet be a few surprises. |
I doubt it will turn out that way. Some of SB's convictions were overturned outright on appeal. The rest were suspended, expressly pending the findings of the administrative court. I can't see those convictions standing.
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| Timc wrote: |
This could now affect the BASI outcome in that they could not be held to blame for the actions of the French in not issuing the permit.
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I suspect the BASI case is further complicated by their "collusion" with the French over the non-issue of the permit and their unwillingness to back their member through "administrative errors". At the very least I struggle to see where the leg is on which they will stand when it comes to cancellation of membership without due process and before the French legal process had run its due course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| ... unless the French state appeals. |
Is it common for the the French government to appeal a decision against them in th Administrative Court? |
As I understand it from the news items it is the first instance Administrative Court (not civil court - a special court to sue the state) that made this decision (there is also an appeal court in Lyon so I'm not 100% sure).
Grounds for appeal are limited. You can't just say "oh I don't like the judgement" you have to have some point of law in the judgement to appeal, the administrative courts try to cover all the basis to make this as hard as possible. You can't introduce new factors either; you are appealing the current case.
Also if it gets appealed to the supreme court it forms absolute case law which cannot be ignored. Maybe the Prefet will just ignore the decision for other instructors? Although given the decision was against him, on his patch, that would seem odd.
The other big thing in the judgement, as reported, is the fact that the French government always claimed they could do as they want with the Brits because ski instruction is an unregulated profession in the UK. The court dismissed that saying that there is a proper training procedure in place and that is enough, under EU, for the qualifications to have equivalence. That is a big thing, it seems. No more need to kow-tow to the Ayatollahs of the ESF to ask for favours.
Congratulations to Simon Butler, it is a pretty significant win. So the Lyon court doesn't accept the safety argument. The French can keep the Eurotest as their final exam but they can't impose it on other European countries on the entirely bogus "safety" grounds - which I think was the only way they could make it fly under EU law.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| davidof wrote: |
| The other big thing in the judgement, as reported, is the fact that the French government always claimed they could do as they want with the Brits because ski instruction is an unregulated profession in the UK. The court dismissed that saying that there is a proper training procedure in place and that is enough, under EU, for the qualifications to have equivalence. |
That has always been the way I read the EU Directives (although that's as an entirely lay reader, with no legal training whatsoever).
| davidof wrote: |
| So the Lyon court doesn't accept the safety argument. The French can keep the Eurotest as their final exam but they can't impose it on other European countries on the entirely bogus "safety" grounds - which I think was the only way they could make it fly under EU law. |
The safety derogation to the original EU Directive always seemed bogus to me, and just a way of getting around the spirit of the law. It's good that the Administrative Court has said so. It's a shame that France (and Italy, Austria and Germany all of whom were granted the derogation) don't follow the sensible and more balanced approach of the Swiss, who differentiate between on-piste safety (seen as less risky) and off-piste safety (seen as more risky) and who further differentiate off-piste by glaciated terrain, high angle terrain and low angle/below the tree line. Different levels of qualification are required for the more risky environments.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
The safety derogation to the original EU Directive always seemed bogus to me, and just a way of getting around the spirit of the law. It's good that the Administrative Court has said so. It's a shame that France (and Italy, Austria and Germany all of whom were granted the derogation) don't follow the sensible and more balanced approach of the Swiss, who differentiate between on-piste safety (seen as less risky) and off-piste safety (seen as more risky) and who further differentiate off-piste by glaciated terrain, high angle terrain and low angle/below the tree line. Different levels of qualification are required for the more risky environments. |
and none of which have anything to do with skiing a timed slalom. I can see the Eurotest being of interest for some level of ski instruction where you are teaching "performance" skiing to racers or at the very top levels of instruction as a kind of Gold Standard. Yes the guy (or gal) you are going to be taught by is a great instructor and he is a great skier as well.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@davidof, entirely sensible, but sense seems to have little to do with these matters...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
The Administrative court system doesn't exist in the UK
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not the same at all, but we do have the process of judicial review in which the courts can test the lawfulness of decisions of public bodies.
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SO GOOD NEWS FOR ALL.
THE "MEGÈVE 6" HAVE ALL BEEN FOUND NOT GUILTY AND FOUND TO HAVE DONE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG, ALL DECLARATIONS WERE CORRECT AS THEY ALL SAID, AND CARTE PRO'S SHOULD AND WILL BE ISSUED ASAP.
HAVE A FANTASTIC CHRISTMAS GUYS & GIRLS WITH ALL THAT COMPENSATION THATS COMING YOUR WAY.
FINGERS CROSSED YOU ARE ALL BACK TEACHING VERY SOON.
SO AFTER ALL THAT I THINK WE ARE DONE HERE, JUSTICE HAS FINALLY BEEN DONE FOR ALL.
HUGE CONGRATULATIONS FOR THIS SIDE OF THE ALPS.
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You know it makes sense.
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WOW, speechless
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Teacher wrote: |
| THE "MEGÈVE 6" HAVE ALL BEEN FOUND NOT GUILTY |
Did the Administrative Court deal with all 6 SBS instructors? I thought it was just Simon that had his case heard?
Are you certain that Carte Pros will be issued to all of them as a result of this ruling? That would put the chat parmi les pigeons!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Administrative Court WAS DEALING WITH ALL THE INSTRUCTORS INVOLVED, SIMON WAS YESTERDAY AND THE REST OF THEM TODAY.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Teacher, thanks.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Is there somewhere a summary of how this all started and how it progressed? I mean actual substance without views and opinions?
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@mooney058, you want this thread to start again from the beginning?
You will need TTT to get the full picture, but she seems to have gone off in a huff.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just trying to understand the case and the flow. There are two related issues (a) SB qualification issue - his dispute with FR; and (b) SB case with BASI. Is that right? Does anyone know or have some links or seen a description on the first issue? Would be much appreciated if someone could direct to reliable sources (links, reports or articles).
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mooney058, as has been said above you can find out all the low down by going through this thread. It will be interesting to see what the Scottish Courts make of the BASI case next week. Personally I cant understand how the matter has gone on for so long but without actually seeing the court papers and hearing the evidence it is not easy to form a fully accurate view so we must wait and see.
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@FFIRMIN,
Could they have been stalling waiting for a French verdict. Do courts do that sort of thing?
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the two cases are totally separate and in different jurisdictions so I dont think so. The BASI Scottish case final judgement has been delayed several times.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| musher wrote: |
@FFIRMIN,
Could they have been stalling waiting for a French verdict. Do courts do that sort of thing? |
AIUI, the Butler v. BASI case is not directly linked to the case before the Administrative Court in Lyon, at least not in the eyes of the law. BASI not issuing the MoU stamp and suspending his membership to Butler (which is what the Scottish Court will rule on) occurred before his arrest in Megeve (which is what the Administrative Court ruled on).
Perhaps the Scottish court allowed additional time for the two parties to try to reach a settlement outside of the court?
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The wheels in UK courts grind very slowly which can cause significant disadvantage to the parties, in particular in this case I suspect the delays may have caused SB considerable further financial losses one way and another!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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IIRC they're legally not connected (one result doesn't affect the other), but they're both symptoms of the same basic issue. I think:
(1) BASI bosses cut a deal which left SB and the rest of the membership unable to continue business in France other than by doing the ET race test. They favoured their businesses whilst shafting the competition and their membership. Allegedly.
(2) The French police arrested SB (and friends) because he didn't have paperwork as per the agreement in (1). What they're fighting over in France is if that was legal. This side of Brexit, we do have ,freedom of movement, hence it's unlikely this would survive the courts if you go high enough. This is what SB just did.
(3) The Scotch case is essentially SB calling BS on the deal in (1).
I may have made errors there, but they're not deliberate.
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With luck (2) will hold, and fully qualified UK people will be able to teach in France without barriers, at least until we leave the EU. It's hard to see how anyone could see this as other than good news for UK qualified people. You can still do your race training if you really think it'll help 
On (3), I can't remember the precise legal challenge, but the fact that the BASI deal did not even hold water in the French courts is presumably a plus for SB. Perhaps BASI will settle now before it gets worse. Irrespective, I can't see that their members would be hugely impressed with all this.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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They think it's all over. Looks like it is bar the shouting.
http://www.planetski.eu/news/8480
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sun 27-11-16 15:25; edited 3 times in total
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@SkiPresto, I was just about to post the very same link. They've covered the saga pretty well over time.
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You know it makes sense.
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Wow, that is very magnanimous of Simon Butler given how poorly he was treated by senior management at BASI. Be very interested to see if any apologies are offered.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@skimottaret, whilst it may have been magnanimous, I expect a settlement was involved too. A good outcome and one that should have been reached months, if not years ago.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Wow, that is very magnanimous of Simon Butler given how poorly he was treated by senior management at BASI. Be very interested to see if any apologies are offered. |
I doubt it. As previous post - I'd expect the settlement to involve pretty much what he was asking for, or he'd have just continued on and taken it from them in court.
This way BASI get some control over confidentiality and they don't waste even more of their members' money. It doesn't mean he walked away, it means they lost so badly they finally know they're beaten.
As it's out of court we probably don't get to see the details, and it's likely they agreed confidentiality about it.
But the accounts of BASI will be available eventually - they made provision for a considerable settlement there, I seem to remember. I'd guess some members may have a few questions, both about the original issue and also about the way it was handled subsequently.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@RichClark, @philwig, I read it that the claims have been dropped, not a settlement reached. "...damages claim for his loss of income as a result of BASI's actions will now be dropped."
be interesting to see what the final deal is...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@skimottaret, I expect that, it was the agreed comms between BASI and SB and would have formed part of the settlement. SB, had a sure fire case, I don't believe that he walk away from a recovery of loss of earnings + his legal fees all for the greater good of the membership. I could of course be wrong though.
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@philwig, admittedly we're guessing, but I absolutely agree with your guess.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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My own view is that this is a great outcome, BASI obviously have some significant issues to resolve within themselves and Simon gets to pick up his business and move onwards and upwards. Whatever the financial ramifications this has now been put to bed with elegance and confidentiality (agreed statement).
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@FFIRMIN, given where things stood a couple of weeks and months ago it is a good outcome, but really why did BASI get themselves into the position? Seems to me like personal objectives and points of view got in the way of a professional and sensible assessment.
On a personal level I think we've probably all been guilty of a bad decision and then compounding that with further bad decision, ultimately resulting in backing yourself into a losing corner but this was an organisation doing this (on presumably) their members behalf. It should have never got this far and out of the 3 organisations (SB, BASI and the French) it's BASI who come out looking to have made the worst decision IMO.
Still waiting for TTT to come and explain why the decision is wrong and it will be overturned, but I guess that' is not going to happen. 
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From Facebook.
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Yes, its true !!!! …Simon has won a fantastic victory in his French Court action, and his French legal team say that he is now cleared to work as an instructor in Megeve this season.
This is obviously a momentous decision by the French authorities, and it will have huge ramifications throughout the entire Ski industry, as well as for all other instructors from various sports wishing to work in France.
So far as Simons' Scottish action is concerned, after careful consideration and having taken legal advice on the matter, the claim against BASI for his MOU stamp to be restored to him in terms of his grandfathering rights and Eurotest exemption, as well as the damages claim for his loss of income as a result of BASIs’ actions will now be dropped.
In coming to this decision, amongst many other factors Si was aware that large sums of BASI members' money were potentially at risk, but given the entire point of both court actions was to allow him to work on the slopes, this has now been achieved and there is no purpose to be served in continuing to pursue matters.
The first action against BASI to restore him to membership after he was unlawfully expelled was concluded in his favour, and in settling the current Scottish case, Simon hopes this will bring an end to the years of upset, rancour and distress this entire episode has caused to everyone concerned.
Simon and all of the team at the Chalet d'Antoine would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone and everybody who has supported him in his struggle to be able to work in France again, and we all look forward to seeing you on the pistes this season. "
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Hopefully someone with greater knowledge than me could explain how, in the light of the administrative court's decision that the relevant French authorities were wrong in their decision to deny SB permission that BASI could be held responsible for them making that decision. So being the cynic I am not surprised that SB has dropped his case against BASI as I don't see how he could have won. Perhaps we will hear about SB now launching a civil case in France for compensation for loss of earnings.
Just speculation of course but I don't think we have heard the last of this yet.
It appears that there is just one winner from all this legal action and that as usual is the lawyers.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Very cynical Timc. Without a full and deep understanding of the French legal system it is not possible to fully analyse the French administrative Court's decision except to say that in simple terms it looks to me as if they felt that while the French could impose what conditions they wished on French professionals they could not rule out "equivalence" from another jurdisdiction. If this was the case then BASI's expulsion and denial of the MOU to Simon on whatever grounds, but it wasnt apparently on lack of professional capability or expertise, suggested that he was not of the standard which entitled him to the "equivalescence" status on some other grounds which as never been fully enunciated, was clearly nonsense.
I very much doubt there will be any follow up specifically to this case ie in respect of Simon but what the French authorities may choose to do in respect of the laws relating to non French workers in the ski industry remains to be seen.
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FAQ
