 Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
I would not believe everything from the SB propaganda machine if I was you.
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I haven't even read everything from the SBPM, let alone believed it. I've only read what's on SHs - I don't do Facebook, for example. My conclusions as to the wisdom of his expulsion from BASI are mostly drawn from your arguments (on the earlier thread) about why you think it was justified.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@TTT - the more you say the more obvious it is you don't know what your talking about . . . more rope?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Poleplant wrote: |
| @TTT - the more you say the more obvious it is you don't know what your talking about . . . |
This seems to be a common theme across multiple topics, to be fair.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| TTT wrote: |
| I'd say SB is on a sticky wicket because he is betting that he knows the law better than the French, BASI and the EU. I understand he is not a lawyer and can't understand French so it not only a sticky wicket but a blind bet. He is relying on someone with their own personal agenda who was convicted and lost and went out of business. Is SB concious and competent? |
How so?
One part of the French case overturned, the other part under review. Licence reinstated. It would appear that French and Scottish courts might know something you don't about applying the law of their respective lands.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@TTT, I've read documentation provided by skimottaret. No deal is anywhere near on a Delegated Act (for example, what level would be required for right of establishment), which, if it were enacted tomorrow, has no bearing on current court cases (of course). Be that as it may, I think you would do well to read skimottaret's own thoughtful analyses on the current process.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Is there a link to that documentation ?
Apologies if I lost it in the midst of the smoke and mirrors of ttt's dribbling.
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What is sad about all this is that BASI is comprised of thousands of great people who love skiing and love passing on their knowledge and skills, this debacle looks like a lose lose for all concerned, with possibly hundreds of thousands of pounds going down the drain.
BASI need to up their game considerably, operating as a cabal won't work any more.
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I see the SB mob are out in force tonight.  Bullying and abuse does seem the limit of some. Is it really too difficult to countenance that the majority in France, BASI and the EU may also have a valid point of view and that one renegade may be wrong, albeit these are subjective terms.
I would rather not put the name on here but if you search for them on the bzk thread I suspect there will be a link to skimarroets web site, you can then get his name
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
| @TTT I see the SB mob are out in force tonight. Bullying and abuse does seem the limit of some. |
Sorry but that's clearly an attempt to deflect from your weakened and increasingly weakening position. Accusations of bullying and abuse means you've lost the high ground IMV and no amount of smilies can change that.
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@TTT, I've not taken sides in this at all except to point out the ineptitude of BASI in dealing with it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| halfhand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| @TTT I see the SB mob are out in force tonight. Bullying and abuse does seem the limit of some. |
Sorry but that's clearly an attempt to deflect from your weakened and increasingly weakening position. Accusations of bullying and abuse means you've lost the high ground IMV and no amount of smilies can change that. |
Funnily enough I was thinking just the same.
Oh sorry; perhaps that can be construed as bullying and abuse. Just for clarity TTT; it isn't. You just have a viewpoint that others disagree with.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Always assuming he/she had it in the first place 
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| TTT wrote: |
| ..I see the SB mob are out in force tonight. .. |
You're suggesting that your own failure to defend the indefensible is because your audience is all somehow connected to this issue? The whole internet is controlled by the arch criminal SB?
I doubt anyone here other than your own anonymous self have a vested interest in this.
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You know it makes sense.
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| TTT wrote: |
I see the SB mob are out in force tonight. Bullying and abuse does seem the limit of some. Is it really too difficult to countenance that the majority in France, BASI and the EU may also have a valid point of view and that one renegade may be wrong, albeit these are subjective terms.
I would rather not put the name on here but if you search for them on the bzk thread I suspect there will be a link to skimarroets web site, you can then get his name |
FFS. Not agreeing with your selective interpretation of events and rampant anti SB propaganda doesn't make anyone part of his "mob". Just as reading some primary legislation doesn't give you sole right to opine on its meaning.
SB may be a problem but it seems that BASI haven't always had a whiter than white history when it comes to the interests of their entire membership and frankly look shambolic to the outsider in the SB affair.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| TTT wrote: |
I see the SB mob are out in force tonight. Bullying and abuse does seem the limit of some. Is it really too difficult to countenance that the majority in France, BASI and the EU may also have a valid point of view and that one renegade may be wrong, albeit these are subjective terms.
I would rather not put the name on here but if you search for them on the bzk thread I suspect there will be a link to skimarroets web site, you can then get his name |
TTT if you make statements that cannot be backed up then it is likely you will be challenged. This is often your response when put on the spot. You go from spouting your blinkered take on the matter and call foul when your assertions fail. I can back up what I'm saying, not inside info, but with fact not rumour.
I have just checked the three BoD minutes for 2014 prior to SB's expulsion and no mention of his case is mentioned in terms of BASI or France. When it comes to legal matters it is facts that are dealt with. You won't find that all odd; I certainly do.
I see that something is amiss here and the courts are dealing with it. Who knows it could go the way that you/BASI/French would like it to go. I'm open to the fact that this is not a done deal. You on the other hand take the stance that he is wrong and guilty and deserves everything he gets. I'm a little more open to possible outcomes on the matter.
You spout too many half truths on the matter, are scathing of 90% of members and refuse to see this situation in any other possible way. Don't be too surprised when asked to backup some of your claims.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sun 3-05-15 20:27; edited 2 times in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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TTT just back up what you are saying. Whoever is feeding you your lines is letting you down 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@skison, You are forgetting that TTT claims to have no interest or bias in this case and is merely presenting the facts and/or an alternative interpretation of the arguments (having diligently read EU law (or is that rules? I always thought EU issued Directives but then again I'm getting lost in parentheses) that everyone else (who does not agree with his/her stance) seems to have forgotten or are unable to discern
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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 I like the 'no bias' bit
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| halfhand wrote: |
| @skison, You are forgetting that TTT claims to have no interest or bias in this case and is merely presenting the facts and/or an alternative interpretation of the arguments (having diligently read EU law (or is that rules? I always thought EU issued Directives but then again I'm getting lost in parentheses) that everyone else (who does not agree with his/her stance) seems to have forgotten or are unable to discern |
If TTT was presenting facts the an acknowledgement of the court decision last week would have been made. Fact is that a serious part of the case was overturned. Fact is that the other part of the case is under review. Any mention of the impact on the overall case? No. As far as TTT is concerned he's still wrong, the courts are right and so are BASI and the French.
I can't help but think TTT is closely linked to BASI. Those at the top have the same mindset.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Sorry but what is your guys point? What is your argument and rationale? I didn't say it was my view. I said it was the view of the French, BASI and the EU rather than the position of one person. So why is the view of SB better than the majority view of the French, BASI and the EU ?That is what needs to be addressed. Laundryman and others are trying. The French have a different point of view. They are an alpine country. Why should the UK strive for mediocrity and be so against a ski instructor having to be a good skier? Why go with certain organisations when you can go with the people that train these people if indeed some of them still bother to train? Why go to a foreign country and spend your time with Brits? Why not ski with people who are highly trained and highly skilled? I know his ex customers get it It seems people don't like getting out of their Brit package comfort zone which seems to me a pity as they are missing out on so much.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| TTT wrote: |
| I see the SB mob are out in force tonight. Bullying and abuse does seem the limit of some. Is it really too difficult to countenance that the majority in France, BASI and the EU may also have a valid point of view and that one renegade may be wrong, albeit these are subjective terms. |
Would you like a drawing of where the case was/where it now is/and where it is heading?
Even a higher court in France didn't go along with that.
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| TTT wrote: |
@skison,
sorry but board minutes in any organisation and invariably very banal and only record the final decisions. Nothing to see here. |
What a total pile of drible I have served on many committees from sports clubs to school PTA to local council etc etc and every single one had properly, accurately recorded minutes.
ANY disciplinary action has to be minuted fully for legal reasons ie you need to demonstrate you acted correctly and in many cases within the rules/laws or you loose your case by default even if the person so disciplined was actually guilty and deserved the action taken against them.
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| TTT wrote: |
| Sorry but what is your guys point? What is your argument and rationale? I didn't say it was my view. I said it was the view of the French, BASI and the EU rather than the position of one person. So why is the view of SB better than the majority view of the French, BASI and the EU ?That is what needs to be addressed. Laundryman and others are trying. The French have a different point of view. They are an alpine country. Why should the UK strive for mediocrity and be so against a ski instructor having to be a good skier? Why go with certain organisations when you can go with the people that train these people if indeed some of them still bother to train? Why go to a foreign country and spend your time with Brits? Why not ski with people who are highly trained and highly skilled? I know his ex customers get it It seems people don't like getting out of their Brit package comfort zone which seems to me a pity as they are missing out on so much. |
Now you are an EU insider knowing the EU view, a question that has yet to be put to the EU directly for their view/interpretation.
Yes the French do have a different point of view and not all French people have the same point of view as the ESF. We have a different point of view that under EU law equal member states have/should have no less merit or validity than any other member state no matter how many, or big the bumps they use for skiing down. To insinuate the French know better because they have bigger bumps is close to discrimination imo.
Why should it not be they have to be a good instructor ? skiing ability is pretty irrelivent to a beginner or intermediate they are not likely to be training for the Wengen downhill any time soon.
Many BASI skiers/instructors are highly trained and highly skilled and not all of those have BASI L4. They are also people who realise making lessons enjoyable is an important factor that helps encourage people to continue with instruction, something we see from posts on this site and others that some ESF seem to think is irrelevant.
Last point is possibly your first valid point there are Brits who don't like going outside the comfort zone of a package holiday for any type of holiday, but there are many who also think outside the box when looking at holidays so there is hope that more people especially with the internet are now doing this and numbers will increase every year.
Lastly I am sick and tired of your insults to BASI L1-L2 every single BASI L4 had to start at the bottom and work their way through the rigorous training required to reach the top level and any BASI L1-L2 should be supported and encouraged to continue and strive to be a better skier and more importantly a better instructor.
If you are associated with BASI in any way you should be ashamed at the way you have put down a large majority of the membership, some who in years to come you may find yourself receiving the highest level of training from that you seem to crave.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sun 3-05-15 21:12; edited 2 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@TTT, do you believe that anyone who takes issue with your point of view is part of the "SB mob".
Paranoid, much?
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@speed098, you have obviously not worked in business where the board minutes will be absolutely minimal. Of course you will keep seperate dcoumentation but that would not be in the board minutes in business.
This message board really does have a big downer on BASI and the French: I'm just trying to point out that there are other majority views in BASI and in France. There are 2 different things here. There is the law/rules which are publicly available which lots of people seems to be comment on without not actually reading and then there is whether the law is right or wrong which is a seperate matter. There are no absolutes when it comes to right or wrong only views and opinions. The majority opinion of BASI and the French is that SB is wrong: You may well disagree with that but it is just a different opinion.
I really don't get the obession with SB. Are people really too scared to go out of their comfort zone?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@TTT, What obsession with SB I have said many times before he is not whiter than white he has done things wrong and though I understand from my personal point of view why he may have done so I can not answer for why he did. Two wrongs do not make a right is the old saying but I also believe those in authority have a higher onus on ensuring they follow the law and act within the law and the spirit of the law. This is something the ESF def have not done in regard to training schools.
You have not yet answered why you belittle BASI L1 and L2 because as I stated in years to come some may well be the instructors/trainers you crave so much and hold is such high esteem.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@speed098, I am not insulting level one and twos at all! I ski with them. Just pointing out the reality as they all know and every trainer I've ever spoken to knows. They share the same view but are all realistic about their abilities and would like to be better. All the ones I know are very humble about their skiing and instructing ability: That is why they pay for top quality instruction. That is in your imagination. I understand that you have had difficulties with organisations and distrust them: BASI have been absolutely fine in all my dealings with them.
@pam w, you are right it is a Brit SH mob! They do seem to froth at the mouth at the mention of BASI or the French! All my dealings with BASI and the French have been absolutely fine. They are humans. They just don't seen to be open to actually reading the law or understanding the BASI or French position. It makes you wonder when they see no SB evil, hear no SB evil, speak no SB evil. It is a lot more complicated than that. If it is just one old level 1 that has a problem then surely you have to ask why does this one person have a problem when no one else did? When he gets involed in repeated court cases with the French and BASI you have to suspect that some of it might just be down to him or are Brits above French law?
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I really don't get the obession with SB
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 You're the one who accused everyone who disagrees with you of being part of an "SB mob". I've never met the man and never seen his Facebook page.
And I have no downer on the French, either. Indeed I am frequently accused of the opposite, on this forum. I have an apartment in France and speak a fair bit of French - would describe myself as a Francophile. But that doesn't mean I think they are always right about everything. I have no "downer" on civil servants (I was one) but that doesn't mean I didn't frequently take issue with some quite senior ones or would suggest they are always right.
I am sure BASI does some great work and has some great members. This is all rather sad.
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You know it makes sense.
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@speed098, training schools same as the Brits do in the UK. Not covered by EU rules. PErsonally would like to see mor flexibility though. maybe shock horror Brits and french working together! Glad that finally someone grasps that just maybe SB may be part of the problem! If only people knew!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| TTT wrote: |
| Sorry but what is your guys point? What is your argument and rationale? I didn't say it was my view. I said it was the view of the French, BASI and the EU rather than the position of one person. So why is the view of SB better than the majority view of the French, BASI and the EU ?That is what needs to be addressed. Laundryman and others are trying. The French have a different point of view. They are an alpine country. Why should the UK strive for mediocrity and be so against a ski instructor having to be a good skier? Why go with certain organisations when you can go with the people that train these people if indeed some of them still bother to train? Why go to a foreign country and spend your time with Brits? Why not ski with people who are highly trained and highly skilled? I know his ex customers get it It seems people don't like getting out of their Brit package comfort zone which seems to me a pity as they are missing out on so much. |
For the avoidance of doubt, I've skied with excellent instructors and guides of many nationalities in many countries - including French ones.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@TTT, there are lots of very happy skiers on here who regularly ski in France with BASI instructors.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@pam w, I ski and drink with some of them! There are some "interesting " characters on FB though and there are a few on here that would fit in with them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@laundryman, you are more an associate than mob
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Hells Bells, did I say otherwise? I'm sure some of them may even know the odd word of French and even on occaision interact with a French person - shocking.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| TTT wrote: |
@speed098, I am not insulting level one and twos at all! I ski with them. Just pointing out the reality as they all know and every trainer I've ever spoken to knows. They share the same view but are all realistic about their abilities and would like to be better. All the ones I know are very humble about their skiing and instructing ability: That is why they pay for top quality instruction. That is in your imagination. I understand that you have had difficulties with organisations and distrust them: BASI have been absolutely fine in all my dealings with them.
@pam w, you are right it is a Brit SH mob! They do seem to froth at the mouth at the mention of BASI or the French! All my dealings with BASI and the French have been absolutely fine. They are humans. They just don't seen to be open to actually reading the law or understanding the BASI or French position. It makes you wonder when they see no SB evil, hear no SB evil, speak no SB evil. It is a lot more complicated than that. If it is just one old level 1 that has a problem then surely you have to ask why does this one person have a problem when no one else did? When he gets involed in repeated court cases with the French and BASI you have to suspect that some of it might just be down to him or are Brits above French law? |
All things start with one person, The civil rights movement started as one person and one person also stands out as the voice against oppression within that movement, the same fight against apartheid (they where all labelled CRIMINALS ! to start with as well). Now yes these are on a much grander/global level but ask yourself is SB the first fighting a case for full equality? EU law should not/does not from my limited reading allow the French ESF to stop British or for that matter Dutch or Spanish training schools as long as there are TEN full cert instructors equal to the ESF level. It does not in anything I have read state only the French ESF may have training schools with only ESF trainees.
You spout so much about the evils of UKIP trying to destroy/take away your rights as a European citizen to practice your trade in any member state. Shame you do not hold the same moral high ground about the French ESF refusing equal terms and taking away the rights of other EU citizens or is that because it does not affect you personally as you have clearly stated you have no interest in teaching.
Either there is equivalence in all maters relating to work or forget the EU law altogether and the EU. If you meet the std then you have the same rights as any French ESF. If you and 9 mates who also happen to be fully qualified want to open training school be it in the UK, Spain, Italy and FRANCE you have the same right to do so.
THAT IS THE EU LAW AS I HAVE READ AND INTERPRET IT ! Not your befuddled interpretation of pick and choose which parts you want to apply and which you want to ignore.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@TTT,
Put this bit separate.
YES ! agree to see BASI and ESF working together with the best interests of those having lessons would be fantastic and is what both sides should be striving to attain.
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@speed098, SB is the new Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela??? This is just getting bizarre now.
No there is not equivalence in all things! The relevant EU rules only covers recognition of equivalent qualifications. It does not cover training. In my profession other nationals are not allowed to train people in the UK. You also have to have a set number of people who have trained in the local qualification responsible for training to train people. Exactly the same situation in the UK under EU rules. It is only once you are qualified that people are able to work in different countries.
There is also a higher qualification for training in France which brits do not hold so they are not equivalent. The only way it would work in my profession and skiing is if all the rules, regulations and training system was the same. I am also limited what I can do overseas which is quite right as I don't have the specific local knowledge to train people. If all the rules and systems merged which is gradually happening then it would work. I agree it is not ideal. But you would need one common European training system and grades. Merging different systems and different cultures which have been there a long time is very difficult.
People's belief systems are so fundamental to them it is very difficult for them to accept the views of other cultures may not be wrong but just different to their own. Hence the dissonance on this issue. The younger generation who have tended to study and work overseas more are generally a lot more open.
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| TTT wrote: |
| There is also a higher qualification for training in France which brits do not hold so they are not equivalent. The only way it would work in my profession and skiing is if all the rules, regulations and training system was the same. I am also limited what I can do overseas which is quite right as I don't have the specific local knowledge to train people. If all the rules and systems merged which is gradually happening then it would work. I agree it is not ideal. But you would need one common European training system and grades. Merging different systems and different cultures which have been there a long time is very difficult. |
I think you are starting to get a bit confused. What some people want is to train BASI instructors on French snow for BASI exams in the context of a ski school not train French instructors for French exams. This under the same framework the French propose. At present French instructors can employ BASI trainees for BASI exams, which is what you are arguing against.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@davidof, that is a fair point. People do basi training in France and I would like to see them work in peak periods as they do in CH. That does not change the EU rules though and I don't see SB as a training organisation. SB is not a trainer. As I keep saying there is a difference between what I see as the EU rules and what I personally think should happen in practice where I'm a lot more ambivalent. I don't see that the EU rules cover training. I think where speed098 are agreed is that ideally there would be one common, training, grading and employment set of rules. At the moment the focus is only on the top level. That is the next stage. I can see it becoming less relevant over time though as younger people are quite capable of working through the system. SB is a hangover from a previous era.
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| TTT wrote: |
| @davidof, that is a fair point. People do basi training in France and I would like to see them work in peak periods as they do in CH. That does not change the EU rules though and I don't see SB as a training organisation. SB is not a trainer. As I keep saying there is a difference between what I see as the EU rules and what I personally think should happen in practice where I'm a lot more ambivalent. I don't see that the EU rules cover training. I think where speed098 are agreed is that ideally there would be one common, training, grading and employment set of rules. At the moment the focus is only on the top level. That is the next stage. I can see it becoming less relevant over time though as younger people are quite capable of working through the system. SB is a hangover from a previous era. |
I looked in more detail at what you had to say. Just to clarify rapidly. To be a French Training Center you need to have 10 ISTD level instructors who need an additional level of "training advisor". I didn't find an equivalent at BASI other than BASI trainer, who probably are busy doing BASI courses anyway. The training center cannot employ more trainees than they have qualified staff, although the qualified staff list is quite extensive. The legislation is seen as anti competitive but despite protests from the ESI has never been overturned.
It may that the "training advisor" qualification is seen as an unfair barrier under EU law. It may be possible for a BASI ISTD with Eurotest to take the French training advisor module. It seems the ENSA will accept foreign qualifications as gateway's to their own training.
As you have said, they could reasonably add a language test, say Euro Level B2, to the capacity test and this would seem to be permissible under current EU law.
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FAQ
