 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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So what does "partie civile" mean? If it means entirely neutral party who made every effort not to be involved in the case that's one thing, if it means original witness or complainant that's another.
I'm sure that there aren't any French forums, or bars where ski instructors gather for a digestif, where people bitch about Les Anglais or Les Rosbifs are there? The ESF, of whom I've met many agreeable individual members does seem to have a certain profile among Brit consumers. Just xenophobia or could there possibly be any other justifiable reason for not liking them?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yup, that sort of arrogance could well see people begin to drift away, I would think. Though I would rather the French become more welcoming and conciliatory, embracing those who chose to go to their country for their skiing holiday, as opposed to cramming up Austrian resorts 
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fatbob, from a purely personal prespective, we've met many ESF instructors in bars, restaurants etc in Serre Chevalier. Almost without exception they are polite and civil. My French guests use them for their ski lessons. However, one particular instructor goes out of his way to be unpleasant which even extended to when he was working in the summer at our favourited mountain restaurant. no idea why.
Anyway, I don't suppose too many people will notice if there are fewer English in Serre Che next winter, we're hardly over-run with UK tour-op accommodation anyway, and my guests don't use ski hosting.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Claude B, Thanks will pass that one around!
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| ...a mass return to austria. |
Please no. Please God (and I'm not religious) NO. Luckily people cannot see beyond France and they'll still pour into their over-priced rabbit hutches, put up with eurofizz chemical lager at eight quid a pint and do their "follow-my-shruggy-shoulders" ESF instruction. The ONLY reason all this ski hosting thing matters is because UK tour ops make more money out of the French product than they do anywhere else. THEY dictate where the masses go and big-up their crappy chalet products accordingly. These things ALWAYS boil down to money - they make more margin in France, get bigger kick backs and they find the whole package easy to sell by subtle scaremongering about snow surety and elevation. It's why they put money behind Le Ski's defence. Turning the tables on the ESF by accusing them of protectionism was merely a cloak for their own protectionism. Like in life, they all deserve each other. Don't go to Austria, you'll all hate it.
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Bode Swiller, So from that you much prefer to turn left out of the Tunnel 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| people cannot see beyond France and they'll still pour into their over-priced rabbit hutches, put up with eurofizz chemical lager at eight quid a pint and do their "follow-my-shruggy-shoulders" ESF instruction. |
Why put up with this awfulness? Open your eyes (but you won't need to open your wallets much) and go to Austria. Fattes13 has already said they offer plenty of ski hosting and there are barely any French people with their garlic shrugs there either.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| Bode Swiller, So from that you much prefer to turn left out of the Tunnel |
It's funny, when you leave the tunnel and head east towards Lille and beyond, you find yourself alone. Meanwhile, a massive convoy of cars with roof boxes heads towards Reims. I always give a cheery wave though (and sometimes forget to use all my fingers)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I bought 6 large quality beers and a coffee in a great Austrian ski bar the other week. Total bill was about 24 Euros.
Delicious main courses on the mountain were 7-10 Euros. Usually tremendous quality, with generous portions. The pistes were perfectly prepared and uncrowded, with top-quality lifts and no queuing. Everything was tourist-centred, characterful and friendly.
As Swiller suggests, this competitiveness is unacceptable, and everyone should continue to loyally support the French.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
It's funny, when you leave the tunnel and head east towards Lille and beyond, you find yourself alone. |
Not for much longer.
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You know it makes sense.
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When we ever used social skiing it was a way to meet other skiers....and for those who don't want lessons.... So the esf have achieved what?
And for those who believe the esf were not pushing this then suggest you talk to some of the social ski guides who have been arrested... On many occasions esf people were there to make sure arrests took place. ....esf instructors earn very good money and they will protect their jobs and income, no matter what eu law or any other law states. Using hse as an excuse in France is a joke....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I would be interested in what a French ruling would be if a Tour Op decided to get all of their ski hosts to have a Snowsport Scotland Ski Leader or Snowboard Leader qualification? For those who don't know about this qualification:
"The award offers the opportunity to gain technical competence in leading skiers or snowboarders within the bounds of a ski resort in a mountain environment at home or abroad. It does not provide a professional instruction qualification and does not permit a Ski Leader to take their group off piste. The award is limited to those travelling and working with their own groups and would be invalid in any other circumstances." (http://www.snowsportscotland.org/become-a-leader)
My parents were school teachers and this allowed them to lead their school kids around the resorts, before and after the lessons that the kids had with qualified instructors.
Whether it be this qualification or a version of it (as the hosts are not travelling out with the group so the qualification could be invalid), I think this should be the type of solution to the situation. The qualification is more in depth than what I think most ski hosts get in training from the Tour Ops and I personally think that this is the level/type of qualification that a ski host should have.
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Poster: A snowHead
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So there'll be movement for an Austrian BASH next season then???
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| yorkshirelad wrote: |
| esf instructors earn very good money and they will protect their jobs and income |
Yes, they're loaded!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Masque wrote: |
| So there'll be movement for an Austrian BASH next season then??? |
I don't see how there can be a series of bashes without one. Or one over the pond for that matter.
Anyway, Admin has great experience of cellars and dungeons and suchlike from a previous life so you'd think he would be strongly attracted to the motherland of skiing.
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Bode Swiller, Dadmin don't do Da States . . . you'll have to ask him, but I think he'll be up for a Canada bash.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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marksavoie, that would be a fair statement, if and only if France (much like Italy) didn't have a de facto tripartite legal system.
1. Laws that everyone obeys, more or less, locals and furriners alike. This is a somewhat short list.
2. Laws that at least furriners obey and that the locals pay some degree of lip service too (as in this case). A longer list but hardly extensive.
3. Laws to be obeyed only by furriners and the observation of such simply for the continuing amusement of the locals. (Almost all of the code civile).
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 19-02-13 20:13; edited 1 time in total
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simon_bates,
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I would be interested in what a French ruling would be if a Tour Op decided to get all of their ski hosts to have a Snowsport Scotland Ski Leader or Snowboard Leader qualification? For those who don't know about this qualification:
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That's not a qualification the French recognise. So they would view at as unqualified.
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| Quote: |
when you leave the tunnel and head east towards Lille and beyond, you find yourself alone.
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so much better - never any traffic jams heading into Austria, no lift queues, no ice on the slopes. It sounds like heaven. The people who complain just have no idea how much more awful it could be.
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Comedy Goldsmith, on the slopes again, people will be talking
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Crystals report of this on their fb page has had a lot of comments! Someone has said esf in Morzine last week had flyers up offering afternoon guided tours, no instruction. 34 euros for 4 hours. There you go 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
when you leave the tunnel and head east towards Lille and beyond, you find yourself alone.
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so much better - never any traffic jams heading into Austria, no lift queues, no ice on the slopes. It sounds like heaven. The people who complain just have no idea how much more awful it could be. |
No, it really really is awful. And you forgot to say that it never snows there. Do not go to Austria. And you're female so you'll spend most of the week underground anyway. Avoid austria at all costs. Please.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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cathy, Told you lot weeks ago that would happen. Too many junior instructors cluttering up the ESF offices and not getting work because of legitimate competition. Lessons allocated in the morning and those without work get to shuffle the punters around the slopes at a discount. I suspect the TOs already have offers on their desks for this service from the ESF.
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Don't pretend protectionism doesn't exist in Austria though. What choice of ski schools is there in St Anton? Not forgetting the ski hire cartel, extra ski hire costs probably outweigh extra french beer costs.
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You know it makes sense.
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This is just about money.....plain and simple.
Whilst in Morzine last week ESF had posters up an flyers around offering a tour of the pistes, no instruction, from 1pm-5pm. 34 euros.
That is what it is all about, they want the exclusive on a blossoming trend. Simple as.
I am sure someone in Morzine can grab a pic of this poster and stick it up.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
they want the exclusive on a blossoming trend
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 I don't think ski hosting is particularly a "blossoming trend" - there seemed to be more of it about years ago, when I used to do package holidays they pretty well all offered hosting in French resorts. Just as more and more people are doing DIY holidays, more seem to be capable of grabbing a piste map and showing themselves around.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
they want the exclusive on a blossoming trend
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I don't think ski hosting is particularly a "blossoming trend" - there seemed to be more of it about years ago, when I used to do package holidays they pretty well all offered hosting in French resorts. Just as more and more people are doing DIY holidays, more seem to be capable of grabbing a piste map and showing themselves around. |
Possibly, but personally i have noticed TO's advertise it more and more of late.....
It has been around for years but just lately it seems to have been pushed as a real reason to choose a certain operator
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Masque wrote: |
| So there'll be movement for an Austrian BASH next season then??? |
BY FAR, the best post on this thread!
Herr Admin, start your magic 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ALQ wrote: |
| Masque wrote: |
| So there'll be movement for an Austrian BASH next season then??? |
BY FAR, the best post on this thread!
Herr Admin, start your magic |
^ Yep (Not that I've been on a bash........yet)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I would still like to know what the British TOs are going to do about it. Do they have to stop hosting with immediate effect?
Are they likely to try and get around it somehow?
For firms like Mark Warner (who do 4.5 days a week), the ski hosting is a big reason many of the guests book with them.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Piccadilly, and it looks like it will have to stop in France . Their website this evening says this
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| We operate ski hosting in St Anton and Courmayeur. Our ski hosts know the layout of the mountains inside out and are ready and waiting to show you how to get the best of them, from the ideal route to the best mountain restaurant. Their experience on the mountain is first class and they're frequently cited as one of the main reasons why our guests come back time and again. Joining hosting groups is also a great way to meet fellow guests from the outset of your ski holiday, but please remember, this is not a substitute for ski school. |
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| Piccadilly wrote: |
Do they have to stop hosting with immediate effect?
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In VT a couple of times recently I did get to ski with Skiworld staff. That is only because I know them and was not a Skiworld guest. They had been told that skiing with guests was a serious disciplinary issue. SW stopped all forms of hosting after the first ruling a few weeks ago.
We were with Crystal. They had stopped their socials.
Had a cracking time off piste with the SW folk
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Interesting conundrum . . . Work for one company and host (gratis) for another . . . 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
when you leave the tunnel and head east towards Lille and beyond, you find yourself alone.
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so much better - never any traffic jams heading into Austria, no lift queues, no ice on the slopes. It sounds like heaven. The people who complain just have no idea how much more awful it could be. |
No, it really really is awful. And you forgot to say that it never snows there. Do not go to Austria. And you're female so you'll spend most of the week underground anyway. Avoid austria at all costs. Please. |
Why the sarcasm? Why not simply encourage people to ski in Austria? I've skied in loads of different countries and loved each of those experiences. Unfortunately I've never made it to Austria, but it sounds great and if I wasn't living in a French ski village - and so not taking ski holidays elsewhere - I'd give Austria a go without doubt. Now that this ski hosting ruling has come through, it sounds like a prime opportunity for people who normally ski in France to spread their wings and go to Austria instead.
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| simon_bates wrote: |
I would be interested in what a French ruling would be if a Tour Op decided to get all of their ski hosts to have a Snowsport Scotland Ski Leader or Snowboard Leader qualification? For those who don't know about this qualification:
"The award offers the opportunity to gain technical competence in leading skiers or snowboarders within the bounds of a ski resort in a mountain environment at home or abroad. It does not provide a professional instruction qualification and does not permit a Ski Leader to take their group off piste. The award is limited to those travelling and working with their own groups and would be invalid in any other circumstances." (http://www.snowsportscotland.org/become-a-leader)
My parents were school teachers and this allowed them to lead their school kids around the resorts, before and after the lessons that the kids had with qualified instructors.
Whether it be this qualification or a version of it (as the hosts are not travelling out with the group so the qualification could be invalid), I think this should be the type of solution to the situation. The qualification is more in depth than what I think most ski hosts get in training from the Tour Ops and I personally think that this is the level/type of qualification that a ski host should have. |
They'd ignore it.
Any qualification that isn't French doesn't exist to them.
I was out Ski Hosting in Les Menuires at the start of the season, I was only doing the job because I hadn't found an instructing job. I'm CSIA level 2 and while that's valid everywhere else in the world, to the French I might as well be a rabbit. When we thought this ruling was imminent earlier in the season we asked the locals whether other qualifications sufficed [myself and my 2 ski hosting colleagues all have the CSIA level 2], we were told unequivocally "non".
So, basically, you've got to be a French-qualified instructor, preferably French*, and charging instructor prices, or they're going to have problems with you.
[*I know people who have worked for NewGen in France and they've told of strong animosity and abuse from ESF instructors in the past.]
| Piccadilly wrote: |
I would still like to know what the British TOs are going to do about it. Do they have to stop hosting with immediate effect?
Are they likely to try and get around it somehow?
For firms like Mark Warner (who do 4.5 days a week), the ski hosting is a big reason many of the guests book with them. |
All the hosts I know out at the moment have been told to stop immediately and they're unlikely to restart.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 19-02-13 23:48; edited 1 time in total
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