 Poster: A snowHead
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Definitely Poles working in the Serre Chevalier valley over the last few years along with other Eastern Europeans
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hells Bells, are you are UKIP member by any chance?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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French mates in the construction industry have learnt English on site talking to the eastern europeans! So it benefits everyone really 
Funny that in Savoie the workers doing the hotels and chalets up in the alps do seem to be Polish but lower down in the cities they are Portuguese. In the south of France it's mostly Portuguese and Italian (as is obvious from the number plates on their vans if anything). I've no idea what it's like elsewhere but in any case the 'polish plumber' was an electoral bogeyman in France long before he became known in the UK.
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davidof, definitely not !! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
You say "Social Dumping", I say "Single Market".
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It's the EU itself that calls this "Social Dumping" (see below) and the current directive on "Posted Workers" is being reinforced by: Posting of Workers Enforcement Directive adopted 13 May 2014.
Source: Posted workers EU Commission Website
What is posting?
We say a worker is "a posted worker" when he is employed in one EU Member State but sent by his employer on a temporary basis to carry out his work in another Member State. For example, a service provider may win a contract in another country and send his employees there to carry out the contract. This trans-national provision of services, where employees are sent to work in a Member State other than the one they usually work in, gives rise to a distinctive category, namely that of "posted workers". This category does not include migrant workers to go to another Member State to seek work and are employed there.
To guarantee that the rights and working conditions of a posted worker are protected throughout the European Union, and to avoid "social dumping" where foreign service providers can undercut local service providers because their labour standards are lower, the European Community law has established a core of mandatory rules regarding the terms and conditions of employment to be applied to an employee posted to work in another Member State. These rules will reflect the standards of local workers in the host Member State (that is, where the employee is sent to work).
The idea is that where a Member State has certain minimum terms and conditions of employment, these must also apply to workers posted to that State. However, there is nothing to stop the employer applying working conditions which are more favourable to workers such as, for instance, those of the sending member State (that is, where the employee usually works).
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Undercutting local labour by employing staff of a lower standard - sounds familiar to another current case. Strangely not something certain political parties and media with a certain agenda mentioned.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| davidof, definitely not !! |
I was just wondering why you mentioned that Poles are working in your area, that's all?
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Using Google on the back of marksavoie's text leads me here http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-14-344_en.htm, which is quite interesting but unnecessary to quote in entirety here. Of particular interest is this though...
"The new Enforcement Directive will in particular:
- clarify the definition of posting increasing legal certainty for posted workers and service providers, while at the same time avoiding the multiplication of "letter-box" companies that do not exercise any genuine economic activity in the Member State of origin but rather use posting to circumvent the law"
So I assume, say Mark Warner HQ is fine as they legitimately operate in various countries, but bang go the payroll agencies eh?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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davidof, along with lots of other nationalities. They have as much right to be there as you or I. It was suggested by someone else above that they did not work in the Alps, it was just a comment that there were Poles working there.
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Hells Bells, fair cop, twas me who was repeating the anecdotal evidence of our village that getting high quality low cost maintenance during shoulder season was nigh on impossible because the locals were the only show in town.
Of course, there may be politics at play here too - with Large French operator whose name rhymes with Dierre and Wacances not wishing to tread on toes.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| davidof, along with lots of other nationalities. They have as much right to be there as you or I. It was suggested by someone else above that they did not work in the Alps, it was just a comment that there were Poles working there. |
There was an "issue" with some coach parties coming from Poland with their own ski instructors, I don't know if you heard of that or saw anything in town?
After watching "Invasion of the Job Snatchers" I can see why motivated eastern europeans may be attractive to employers.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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davidof, I have seen some coach loads, often Czech rather than Polish, but assumed they were tourists just like the rest of us. No idea if they had their own instructors with them or not. They all seem to stop off at the supermarket first.
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The guys I spoke to were builders working on the MGM place in Chantemerle. Not seen many of them for the last couple of summers though, perhaps the economic situation is not as good for them now.
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You know it makes sense.
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| marksavoie wrote: |
| Quote: |
You say "Social Dumping", I say "Single Market".
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It's the EU itself that calls this "Social Dumping" (see below) and the current directive on "Posted Workers" is being reinforced by: Posting of Workers Enforcement Directive adopted 13 May 2014.
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True. However the high cost of employment in France is driven primarily by high social charges (40% upwards of salary). Council Directive 96/71/EC on posted workers has nothing to do with that. It requires minimum salary, annual leave etc to be aligned but the French minimum wage is only marginally higher than the British. The directive does not of itself level the field between (say) a British operator in a resort paying British national insurance versus a French operator paying French social charges.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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There's something else to consider in this from a staff point of view; what happens when they get injured. A French worker will, depending on severity of course, get a letter from the doctor authorising a few weeks off work so he can rest, heal and then see the season out to the end of his contract.
A worker on a British contract will be sent back home ASAP and replaced within a few days by the next on the waiting list. Season over. This is so common, even for minor injuries, that I've heard it nicknamed 'chalet Gatwick'.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
True. However the high cost of employment in France is driven primarily by high social charges (40% upwards of salary). Council Directive 96/71/EC on posted workers has nothing to do with that. It requires minimum salary, annual leave etc to be aligned but the French minimum wage is only marginally higher than the British. The directive does not of itself level the field between (say) a British operator in a resort paying British national insurance versus a French operator paying French social charges.
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Yes, France's high employer "cotisations" (employer NI equivalent) are one element of the high costs of employment here. However 96/71/EC is highly relevant. I quote from the EU website:
| Quote: |
| The idea is that where a Member State has certain minimum terms and conditions of employment, these must also apply to workers posted to that State. However, there is nothing to stop the employer applying working conditions which are more favourable to workers such as, for instance, those of the sending member State (that is, where the employee usually works). |
Therefore minimum terms and conditions of employment in France are far more advantageous to the "posted worker" e.g.
France max 35 hr working week with supplementary hours paid at a higher rate and a ceiling on the number of extra hours.
Where accommodation is provided by the employer the maximum amount that can be deducted by the employer is 66,70€ per MONTH (source: URSSAF http://www.urssaf.fr/profil/employeurs/baremes/baremes/avantages_en_nature_01.html).
Sick pay
Minimum standards for accommodation (source: Inspection du Travail) - surface area, windows, conditions, etc ...
... there are many more.
So, your assertion that the Directive has nothing to do with that is a false one.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Good grief - all those social charges and regulations are bad news for France's >10% unemployed, [free movement of labour / social dumping]* or not.
(*) delete to taste
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I wouldn't have much sympathy for the UK TOs to see these rules being enforced.
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Any news on the Ski Hosting court case ? I believe the appeal was due to be heard on 2 July 2014.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hmm, there are many non french working for the esf, what is the problem with brits? U want your rules everywhere?
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| mooney058 wrote: |
| Hmm, there are many non french working for the esf, what is the problem with brits? U want your rules everywhere? |
I'm not quite sure what the relevance of non french people working for the ESF ski school is when this thread is about the legality (or otherwise) of UK tour operator "hosts" showing people around the pistes (and not teaching) 
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Alastair Pink, when the thread gets to page 53 I am surprised it is even still about ski ing 
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Alastair Pink, there are maps for this purpose, isn't it? Most of high mountain guides do not teach either, 'just show around'.... Taking a group of people on a piste involves some responsibilities, not only towards the group but other users on a piste. If a TO decides to cut corners and save money and would send someone with a group who does not know of how to behave then it is ok too?. Most of ski resorts are privately owned and owners set the rule. Try to impose your rules on a private racing track - wont work and you may need to talk to police/lawyers if u do not follow the rules
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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As far as I know, the court case did take place, but the Court will not release it's judgement until September I believe.
As far as I'm aware there are no privately owned resorts in Europe (not that I think that's got anything to do with ski hosting).
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+1 on rob@rar's comment - the verdict has been deferred to the first week of September. Apparently it's likely to fall against Le Ski and they will appeal again to take it to the next level up
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I thought that maybe Mooney058 was American or Canadian, where most hills are privately owned. Perhaps Canadian is the most likely bearing in mind the slightly odd 'English'.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| iainm wrote: |
| +1 on rob@rar's comment - the verdict has been deferred to the first week of September. Apparently it's likely to fall against Le Ski and they will appeal again to take it to the next level up |
I've heard the opposite in that Le Ski are likely to win.
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| rogg wrote: |
| I thought that maybe Mooney058 was American or Canadian, where most hills are privately owned. Perhaps Canadian is the most likely bearing in mind the slightly odd 'English'. |
You are wrong my friend, I'm homo sovieticus so private ownership is a foreign concept. I did not mean hills owned privately, but infrastructure put in place is certainly is. When you go to a gym, it could be privately owned and sets its own rules, while building or land could be rented from the government etc.
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You know it makes sense.
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| mooney058 wrote: |
| rogg wrote: |
| I thought that maybe Mooney058 was American or Canadian, where most hills are privately owned. Perhaps Canadian is the most likely bearing in mind the slightly odd 'English'. |
You are wrong my friend, I'm homo sovieticus so private ownership is a foreign concept to me. I did not mean hills owned privately, but infrastructure put in place certainly is. When you go to a gym, it could be privately owned and then it sets its own rules, while a building or land it si build on could be rented from the government etc. |
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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What is the latest on this. As I recall Le Ski were appealing to the Supreme Court in Paris, has that been heard yet ?
Presumably there'll be no justice until it gets to the EU court.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| formerlymicky wrote: |
| ...Presumably there'll be no justice until it gets to the EU court. |
Much like your name change
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| formerlymicky wrote: |
What is the latest on this. As I recall Le Ski were appealing to the Supreme Court in Paris, has that been heard yet ?
Presumably there'll be no justice until it gets to the EU court. |
Did they even appeal? It is not straighforward to lodge an appeal after the second level court. It is going to cost a fortune at the supreme court too.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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i just wish the british tour operators would pull out of france at least for one season, hit them where it hurts most, in the pocket. as someone who goes skiing on his own, i found the ski guiding an invaluable part of my holiday, so now unless i can find someone to ski with i end up skiing on my own, which as we know is not really a good thing to do in case of accidents, and even the italians are at it now, i soon wont have nowhere to ski.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| compostcorner wrote: |
| i just wish the british tour operators would pull out of france at least for one season, hit them where it hurts most, in the pocket. as someone who goes skiing on his own, i found the ski guiding an invaluable part of my holiday, so now unless i can find someone to ski with i end up skiing on my own, which as we know is not really a good thing to do in case of accidents, and even the italians are at it now, i soon wont have nowhere to ski. |
Snowheads Bash ? 
Maybe better to have the difficult question of who do I ski with today ? Just look at the numbers booked for each of the Bash's many with a hundred plus surely you can find like minded skiers of a similiar level.
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@compostcorner, why would they do that? Not everyone travelling with a tour operator to France wants or needs to be herded round the mountain by a ski host. Not having them does not mean you can't ski with your fellow chalet companions. I'm sure the TOs are all sorting out alternatives. A snowHeads bash would certainly give you company on the slopes.
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Would have thought it better to just make friends and acquaintances to ski with and then there is no need for a ski host. Instruction and learning the language help as you tend to get more opportunities to ski with other people the better you can ski and also speaking the local language to whatever extent helps break barriers down. Instruction is also a good way to meet people. Just chatting tp people about skiing perhaps over a drink often results in a casual ski meet up.
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| rogg wrote: |
| ... American or Canadian, where most hills are privately owned. Perhaps Canadian is the most likely bearing in mind the slightly odd 'English'. |
Just so you know, in Canada at least those hills are "owned", but the land they're on is often state land, so it's not quite as simple as that would suggest. I know less about the US, but you may recall the recent action against Alta for restrictions on snowboarders, which was based on the fact that it's state land. So they can't, for example, reasonably stop you hiking up their pistes, as far as I know.
The same is true for Canadian heli operators, where you buy a "tenure" to run the service on the land, but you can't stop sledders or even bad French ski instructors from using the land too. Your tenure is basically a right to operate a service. I think the same's true in the US.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@compostcorner, yeah, like, that's so going to happen.
Make some skiing friends.
Join a ski club.
Go on a bash.
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FAQ
