On the subject of boot forward lean, what are you wearing currently?
I've just changed from Salomon Falcon 10's to x-max 100's and the difference is dramatic. I can stand up normally without my knees being forced to bend 45d (like it looks like yours are being made to in that vid)
(and the 'powerstrap' tightens against the liner not the shell for a much better fit for those of us with skinny shins)
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@franzClammer, I also leant too far forwards, what I worked on (I think prompted from @Mike Pow, or one of his comments) was trying to stand more central, so not feeling the front of the boots pressing on the shin, but equally not feeling the calf pressing on the rear of the boot. If doing high performance longs you'll need to be more further forward but for normal skiing perhaps try this?
Could you try the droid videoing you or taking pictures as you ski past sideways on a very gentle blue or green, you could then check your legs etc etc.
I found this graphic pretty useful.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Thanks for the help guys.
I'm wearing 2014 Atomic Hawx 110
Just having a look at your last vid - you seem very static and in a fixed position from the initiation to the completion of the turn. Even discounting your own skiing, if you want to instruct, especially beginners, then you need to be able to over-exaggerate, to a degree, what you're doing. Skiing often employs a lot of small subtle actions as well as the key movements and when you find that a majority of pupils will be visual learners, you need to show them very clearly and be able to paint that picture in their head of what they need to do.
My suggestions would be the following - traverse as usual, hips and torso facing the fall line and nicely flexed (all standard stuff) then in a smooth motion pole pleant, stand up, almost legs straight, on the balls of your feet and simply commit your hips to the fall line - done correctly with the right amount of commitment, your skis will unweight and simply turn - really over exaggerate the movements. You can always reduce them later.
So the skis have turned and are now on the fall line, come off the balls of your feet and centre your foot on the ski, start to come back down into the flexed position and pressure the ski around the last bit of the turn - start with long traverses and Z-turns (which you're basically doing now) and then shorten the traverses until you have fully linked turns. A good thing to try is when you pole-plant to start the unweight (standing up), try to impale yourself on the pole with your belly button. You won't because the pole won't be there as you've turned around it already.
What you'll see: You think you'll be looking like an idiot boinging up and down - ignore that, you won't and who gives a damn anyway.
What you'll feel: Done correctly, you will feel the skis simply turning of their own accord.
What you will hear: You'll hear the skis gripping on the traverse and then they'll go very quite while they turn and on the fall line, then you'll hear the gripping again as you complete the turn.
This is simple basic stuff but its the cornerstone of any turn. It's the basics of beginner turns on green runs to tackling couloirs.
Remember, over-exagerrate stuff now and then calm it down a bit when you're happy to.
@franzClammer, Looks like those Hawk's have adjustable FL so perhaps get that checked out.
@AsterixTG, Sounds like a good 'back-to-basics' drill for us all to do now and again
(sorry for thread hijack)
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
red 27 wrote:
..@AsterixTG, Sounds like a good 'back-to-basics' drill for us all to do now and again
+1 (Must be ESF )
I certainly have a tough time spotting and understanding the subtle movements/weight-shifts of good skiers/instructors.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Thanks guys - (ESF - Pah! )
It's hard to see the subtle stuff because they're generally doing loads of 'it' all the time, they're doing 'it' faster and when it all blends, 'it' just looks smooth and controlled.
But - they're still doing the boggo basics of weight transfer and fall line commitment.
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AsterixTG wrote:
My suggestions would be the following - traverse as usual, hips and torso facing the fall line and nicely flexed (all standard stuff) then in a smooth motion pole pleant, stand up, almost legs straight, on the balls of your feet and simply commit your hips to the fall line - done correctly with the right amount of commitment, your skis will unweight and simply turn - really over exaggerate the movements. You can always reduce them later.
So are you suggesting and recommending that turn initiation starts in the hips?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
red 27 wrote:
On the subject of boot forward lean, what are you wearing currently?
I've just changed from Salomon Falcon 10's to x-max 100's and the difference is dramatic. I can stand up normally without my knees being forced to bend 45d (like it looks like yours are being made to in that vid)
(and the 'powerstrap' tightens against the liner not the shell for a much better fit for those of us with skinny shins)
Red27 that's really interesting as I've just swapped to the women's xmax 110 and I can't stand up in them!! Driving me mental as I feel completely out of my usual balance. I'm not sure if it's the forward lean, the ramp angle as the base board has a fair angle on it or the flex, but I've just gone up from 90 flex so don't think it's that now. Think I just need to get someone to grind the base board flatter. I wonder if salomon have just done this on the women's boots, be interested to know if the men's boot has a flatter board.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
AsterixTG wrote:
fC - do you drills with your boots undone/open?
Not during this trip, I do at Hemel.
My cuff angle is set at 15%. Tried it at 13% but it felt orrid n worsened my overflexing of the ankles habit.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Mike Pow wrote:
AsterixTG wrote:
My suggestions would be the following - traverse as usual, hips and torso facing the fall line and nicely flexed (all standard stuff) then in a smooth motion pole pleant, stand up, almost legs straight, on the balls of your feet and simply commit your hips to the fall line - done correctly with the right amount of commitment, your skis will unweight and simply turn - really over exaggerate the movements. You can always reduce them later.
So are you suggesting and recommending that turn initiation starts in the hips?
I'm recommending that for his ability, what I've seen on his vids, and the beginners he'll be teaching, they/he will benefit from making sure they have clear and obvious transitions starting with unweighting the skis before anything else.
Even in a dynamic race GS turn, relieving the pressure on the turning ski/skis kicks is a fundamental in the turn initiation.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
AsterixTG wrote:
My suggestions would be the following - traverse as usual, hips and torso facing the fall line and nicely flexed (all standard stuff) then in a smooth motion pole pleant, stand up, almost legs straight, on the balls of your feet and simply commit your hips to the fall line - done correctly with the right amount of commitment, your skis will unweight and simply turn - really over exaggerate the movements. You can always reduce them later.
I simply interpreted this to mean to keep your COM (pelvis) forward over your feet throughout the turn, being patient in the transition and maintaining rotary separation, whilst exaggerating vertical movements.
Did I miss something
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@sarah, Sorry I can't really offer any advice... Is the trouble that they're tipping you too far forward?
Sounds like a session with a bootfitter may be the best bet?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
sarah wrote:
red 27 wrote:
On the subject of boot forward lean, what are you wearing currently?
I've just changed from Salomon Falcon 10's to x-max 100's and the difference is dramatic. I can stand up normally without my knees being forced to bend 45d (like it looks like yours are being made to in that vid)
(and the 'powerstrap' tightens against the liner not the shell for a much better fit for those of us with skinny shins)
Red27 that's really interesting as I've just swapped to the women's xmax 110 and I can't stand up in them!! Driving me mental as I feel completely out of my usual balance. I'm not sure if it's the forward lean, the ramp angle as the base board has a fair angle on it or the flex, but I've just gone up from 90 flex so don't think it's that now. Think I just need to get someone to grind the base board flatter. I wonder if salomon have just done this on the women's boots, be interested to know if the men's boot has a flatter board.
I'd say break them in firstly, don't rush into any mods until you get a real feel for where any problem lies & then see the bootfitter. If theyre brand new they will need to be skied a bit just to fit properly.
What liners do you have in them?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@AsterixTG, I'm not sure up and down movements will help.. Especially as l2 will try and remove any up movement....
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@kitenski, Is it more a case of flexion & extension from the waist down at L2
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Turn Transition Question:
Sticking my neck out here
As you know I'm a novice instructor and have much to learn, so rather than misinform folk, I thought I'd ask.......
Does anyone have any thoughts on "Unweighting the skis" V's "Pressing & rolling" the skis onto their new edges.
I see the term "unweight" the skis & I tell my learners to press & stand on the outside ski to initiate the turning action. So any up movement is a by-product of standing on & extending the outside leg.
I do use vertical movements & exercises whilst teaching, but usually to free up the joints, increase dynamism and challenge balance skills or correct posture. But I don't talk about "unweighting" the skis, except maybe during plough-parallel phase; in order to allow the inner ski to become "light"
Am I missing something
Whilst you ponder.........Here's some more footage...enjoy
My suggestions would be the following - traverse as usual, hips and torso facing the fall line and nicely flexed (all standard stuff) then in a smooth motion pole pleant, stand up, almost legs straight, on the balls of your feet and simply commit your hips to the fall line - done correctly with the right amount of commitment, your skis will unweight and simply turn - really over exaggerate the movements. You can always reduce them later.
So are you suggesting and recommending that turn initiation starts in the hips?
I'm recommending that for his ability, what I've seen on his vids, and the beginners he'll be teaching, they/he will benefit from making sure they have clear and obvious transitions starting with unweighting the skis before anything else.
Even in a dynamic race GS turn, relieving the pressure on the turning ski/skis kicks is a fundamental in the turn initiation.
Agree 100% about standing tall & light on both skis - 'unweighting'. I practice and teach that.
The rest we'll agree to disagree.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I never use the term unweighting so maybe it's meaning is different, but extending at initiation (or at any time) doesn't create less pressure on the skis, it creates more, whilst flexion reduces the amount (think about absorbing a mogul). Both movements have their uses in a transition.
@kitenski, Is it more a case of flexion & extension from the waist down at L2
I recall the trainers talking about skiing with a glass roof,over your head that you will break if your heads comes up ....
So yes flexion and extension from hips, using all three joints...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
jimmer wrote:
I never use the term unweighting so maybe it's meaning is different, but extending at initiation (or at any time) doesn't create less pressure on the skis, it creates more, whilst flexion reduces the amount (think about absorbing a mogul). Both movements have their uses in a transition.
Surely it increases pressure as you are extending, but once you reach the top of extension, your upward momentum will unweight the skis.... like a jump, but not powerful enough to leave the ground?
P.S. Just finished crawling through all 98 pages of this thread... over the course of about a month! As an intermidiot myself it has been thoroughly enlightening. Many thanks to FC and his army of loyal critics/supporters/nemeses.
After all it is free
After all it is free
jimmer wrote:
I never use the term unweighting so maybe it's meaning is different, but extending at initiation (or at any time) doesn't create less pressure on the skis, it creates more, whilst flexion reduces the amount (think about absorbing a mogul). Both movements have their uses in a transition.
If you use the tip of the ski, the tail of the ski and your head as three points of a triangle, I was under the impression that the taller you stand the more evenly the weight / pressure is distributed over the length of the ski and the more squat you are the more weight / pressure is concentrated under the feet.
For pivotting the more evenly distributed the weight / pressure the better?
Have I got that all wrong?
Because it certainly feels easier to pivot both skis when I'm taller than when I'm squatting.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@fullenglish, welcome along
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Mike Pow wrote:
Because it certainly feels easier to pivot both skis when I'm taller than when I'm squatting.
Is this not because being stood up straight gives you more room to rotate at the hips/thigh? Skis won't know the difference in height of your COM assuming it acts on them in the same direction.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Mike Pow wrote:
jimmer wrote:
I never use the term unweighting so maybe it's meaning is different, but extending at initiation (or at any time) doesn't create less pressure on the skis, it creates more, whilst flexion reduces the amount (think about absorbing a mogul). Both movements have their uses in a transition.
If you use the tip of the ski, the tail of the ski and your head as three points of a triangle, I was under the impression that the taller you stand the more evenly the weight / pressure is distributed over the length of the ski and the more squat you are the more weight / pressure is concentrated under the feet.
For pivotting the more evenly distributed the weight / pressure the better?
Have I got that all wrong?
Because it certainly feels easier to pivot both skis when I'm taller than when I'm squatting.
sorry for the multiquote, I hate them but it makes it easier to reply.
I agree if you stand taller on the skis you will be lighter than if you crouch, but only at the initial standing and crouching, do it on a set of scales, when you stand up the scales will momentarily go down before returning to your normal weight. Simply standing doesn't make you lighter and simply being lower doesn't make you heavier.
I also think what you both are discussing are very different things, standing tall will exert different pressures on the skis than extending, they certainly feel very different to me.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 31-12-14 16:54; edited 1 time in total
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
My cuff angle is set at 15%. Tried it at 13% but it felt orrid n worsened my overflexing of the ankles habit.
Do you mean overflexing your knee habit? You should be curious why a 2% change in forward lean resulted in such a dramatic change in feel, "horrid" could mean "different" and may be worth sticking with, perhaps try videoing from the side some straight glides whilst slowly flexing and extending with the boots set at each angle and see what it does and feels ....
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@red 27, @franzClammer, thanks guys! Sorry to drift your thread a bit ... Yes they are tipping me forwards far too much. Interestingly was next to another woman in the queue for the loo yesterday and she was in the same boots and was tipped really forward too. Otherwise I'm fairly happy with the fit just a bit snug at the moment got intuition liners in them. Will go see a fitter here next week when things are quieter, see about grinding the board flatter. Back in the old boots again for the moment.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
homework time - stand in stocking feet on slippy floor, hands on pelvis to check for movement, then rotate the feet back and forth while standing tall for 2 mins, have a rest, then do the same but with increased amounts of hip, knee and ankle flexion for 2 mins - report back here
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
PLEASE STOP!!! We're well past the point where "counter-productive" should have been screamed from the rooftops
@franz, please take a break from all the angst ridden 'poke me a new one' on my skiing and all the, I'm sure, well meaning input from our peers.
Go back to your first vids and we can see someone sort o' out of control but still magically staying upright. There was a disconnect twixt brain, ability, skills and your natural balance . . . it was that unconscious self preservation that kept yer nut from doing a Schumacher (no cruelty ind).
We've got to the point where there's just too much advice. It's not all contrary but it truly is impossible to try to absorb and apply the instruction from one hundred voices and still find value or even a path through it all.
Take a break, go back to skiing for fun not function and take a look at how the 'droid/dalek' skis . . . soft, relaxed and smooth . . . ahhh, the arrogant, unconscious, competence of youth.
Take what you've learned and stop trying to fractionally distillate it into your performance. I love the minutia of the body mechanics and the practical physics of snowboarding and skiing . . . but you do have to regularly 'switch off' and let your brain and body assimilate all that you have learned, read and surmised . . . then just go and have some fun in lots of different conditions. As you demonstrated when skiing with short visibility . . . wooden is a complement.
Shoite I've just seen the bandwidth excess on my mobile bill for watching all the vids on this thread . . . you don't just owe me a drink but a bottle of 50yr single malt
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
lynseyf wrote:
Mike Pow wrote:
jimmer wrote:
I never use the term unweighting so maybe it's meaning is different, but extending at initiation (or at any time) doesn't create less pressure on the skis, it creates more, whilst flexion reduces the amount (think about absorbing a mogul). Both movements have their uses in a transition.
If you use the tip of the ski, the tail of the ski and your head as three points of a triangle, I was under the impression that the taller you stand the more evenly the weight / pressure is distributed over the length of the ski and the more squat you are the more weight / pressure is concentrated under the feet.
For pivotting the more evenly distributed the weight / pressure the better?
Have I got that all wrong?
Because it certainly feels easier to pivot both skis when I'm taller than when I'm squatting.
sorry for the multiquote, I hate them but it makes it easier to reply.
I agree if you stand taller on the skis you will be lighter than if you crouch, but only at the initial standing and crouching, do it on a set of scales, when you stand up the scales will momentarily go down before returning to your normal weight. Simply standing doesn't make you lighter and simply being lower doesn't make you heavier.
I also think what you both are discussing are very different things, standing tall will exert different pressures on the skis than extending, they certainly feel very different to me.
Nope, have you actually done this on a set of scales? Because the results are exactly the opposite to what you describe. Think about skating, do you propel yourself forwards with extending the leg, or flexing?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Mike Pow wrote:
jimmer wrote:
I never use the term unweighting so maybe it's meaning is different, but extending at initiation (or at any time) doesn't create less pressure on the skis, it creates more, whilst flexion reduces the amount (think about absorbing a mogul). Both movements have their uses in a transition.
If you use the tip of the ski, the tail of the ski and your head as three points of a triangle, I was under the impression that the taller you stand the more evenly the weight / pressure is distributed over the length of the ski and the more squat you are the more weight / pressure is concentrated under the feet.
For pivotting the more evenly distributed the weight / pressure the better?
Have I got that all wrong?
Because it certainly feels easier to pivot both skis when I'm taller than when I'm squatting.
How evenly the weight is distributed depends on which joints are flexed/extended, if you are centred with equal flexion, the weight/pressure will be the same whether you are extended or flexed (whilst in a static stance, extending/flexing would change the amount)
I find pivoting while flexed/extended to be more or less equal (except at extremes), edging however is mechanically harder to do whilst extended.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@jimmer, I've done it on scales ages ago and was pretty sure you got heavier as you squatted down on them, don't have scales here though. My main point really though, if poorly made, was that it is the momentum that causes the change in pressure and that simply being taller or smaller won't made you heavier or lighter beyond the initial movement.
One thing I think you are really missing out on FC is just letting go and having fun after all why else put heavy inflexible ski boots on with big planks attached ? Skiing is not Molecular physics and Quantum mechanic rolled into one. There is no need to dissect every single nanosecond on every run.
This does not mean you will not be learning still, just that you are letting your body learn and giving your mind a well deserved rest. Play with turn shapes mix them up maybe start a skidded turn then quickly edge and make it a carving turn and vice versa you will be letting your body FEEL ! not your mind analyse. Don't think...DO !
Skiing is like a dance yes you have to learn the basic moves but at some point to be really good you just have to let go let the movements flow naturally. Only then will your body truly be able to react to the curve balls the mountain loves to throw at us all just to test us and keep us honest and make us realise who the true boss is.
With the unweighting thing isn't the point that extending will momentarily increase the force the skier imparts on the ground in order to impart less at the peak of the resultant motion. If you extend hard enough you jump after all. Flexing will momentarily reduce the force the skier imparts on the ground but you have to pay that back at the end of the motion to stop the momentum built up. Both are ways of reducing the force from the skiers weight.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
This reminds me of the arguments about the chair of the commission into child abuse: it's the perception (of impartiality, in that case) which counts, not the actuality. My perception, as I stand taller, is that I feel a bit lighter, the actual physics is kind of immaterial. Ahem, especially to someone who doesn't understand the physics too well.
After all it is free
After all it is free
That's because standing is much more bio mechanically efficient than squatting like you're taking a dump which is comparatively stressful.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
It's all a bit brain damage. I'm with Masque & Speed098
Think it's time for a brief interlude.
Here's the man behind the camera.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
)
)
got intuition liners in them. Will go see a fitter here next week when things are quieter, see about grinding the board flatter. Back in the old boots again for the moment.
I've just seen the bandwidth excess on my mobile bill for watching all the vids on this thread . . . you don't just owe me a drink but a bottle of 50yr single malt 
