Some people are fast learners though and confident enough to manage their balance and the fear of speeding up, I have NO idea why anyone would dismiss something and not use it when it can and does help SOME people, saying you don't need a plough or pole plants is just putting your own agenda over the learner's needs IMO
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Sure. But the point of a methodology is that you follow it regardless of the need of the individual pupils. Which might mean that those who could progress faster are denied an alternate route. It's not either /or but I suspect for an athletic learner Mike's 1 on 1 could be more effective. Maybe this is an expression of the benefits of private over group lessons rather than methodology. I doubt snowploughs are truly a never ever skill (they are too useful in certain tight situations at a more advanced stage) but I can see the benefits of not clouding a beginner's mind with them.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
No the methodology is a framework not a checklist of requirements, no one should have their learning stifled to follow a list.. that's crazy, but the instructor's job is to recognise this and provide the most suitable methods to learn and i'm not saying this person needs to learn snowplough but to rule out using it or other methods before you even start cant be good IMO
Quote:
Mike's 1 on 1 could be more effective. Maybe this is an expression of the benefits of private over group lessons rather than methodology
Exactly, 1 on 1 is usually always better, methodology of teaching aside.
The true test will be what time you hit the slopes today.
Pretty bad if he oversleeps and gets to the slopes tomorrow
Hope the snow conditions are great FC
P.S. re teaching and methods the method you teach is the one that best suits the client ( 1 on 1 makes this easier for both parties but is still doable in most group lessons ), be it teaching snowplough or not.
Mike Pow
The progression is pretty impressive well done to both you and your pupil.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Mike Pow, that is awesome work for someone on their second day! Really, really impressed - well done to you and your student.
After all it is free
After all it is free
As an intermidiot at about IoS 6-7, I hate snowplough. Despise the blinking thing. But can now (after years and years) actually do it. V useful in certain situations. But don't get hung up on it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
geeo wrote:
Some people are fast learners though and confident enough to manage their balance and the fear of speeding up, I have NO idea why anyone would dismiss something and not use it when it can and does help SOME people, saying you don't need a plough or pole plants is just putting your own agenda over the learner's needs IMO
The only agenda I have is to give my students the best possible introduction to a wonderful pastime.
I've spent countless hours with 'never evers' in a group environment teaching them the 'braking plough (plow)' - because I'm not fast enough to catch 2-8 students who are out of control from injuring themselves or others - then spending countless hours getting them off their opposing inside edges to make left and right turns.
I'm now in the very fortunate position of only teaching 'never evers' on a 1-to-1 basis.
When you do that and you initially act as the 'governor' controlling their speed on snow there is no need to teach the plough (plow) shape for acceleration and speed control.
My students progress quickly and safely to making parallel turns, using the turn shape for acceleration and speed control.
They're happy and I'm happy.
And most importantly they stick with skiing, and stick with instruction and learning.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
speed098 wrote:
Mike Pow
The progression is pretty impressive well done to both you and your pupil.
Thanks
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Harry Flashman wrote:
@Mike Pow, that is awesome work for someone on their second day! Really, really impressed - well done to you and your student.
Thanks very much. I'll pass that on to James.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Enjoy your turns franzClammer
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
geeo wrote:
...I have NO idea why anyone would dismiss something and not use it when it can and does help SOME people, saying you don't need a plough or pole plants is just putting your own agenda over the learner's needs IMO
@Mike Pow, wish you'd been my instructor all them years ago......
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Mike Pow,
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Thanks Mike Pow that's answered the questions I had.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
I like the Mike Pow method. That is excellent skiing for a 1 or 2 day skier and the posture is way better than many who have been through a week or more of trad progression.
Most importantly the pupil seems to have developed their own feel for what skis are doing and is able to correct rather than repeating a robotic pattern of movements.
I totally agree this method is working well for James but I just couldn't see my 67 year old very nervous mum being so happy letting her skis run like that on day 1 (or day 10). However Mike Pow's explanation of how he physically controls the students speed explains what he does with more nervous and less athletic skiers than James, i could imagine my mum might like having someone hold her arm the whole time
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Mike Pow, forgive a somewhat non-technically worded question. I see from your videos that your pupils learn from the outset to wait for their skis to do the work, while their bodies remains almost spookily calm and upright (without much, if any, pole plant, I think). I can also see from your latest photo of Nerys, and from other videos you have posted of more experienced skiers, that there comes a stage when the whole thing becomes a lot more dynamic, yes the body remains calm, but not quite so upright and the legs look as though they are doing more work, plus there is some pole planting going on. How do you get your pupils to that next, more dynamic stage? Maybe it just comes naturally on steeper slopes?
Sorry if I haven't explained too well what I mean.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Pedantica, he removes the broom handle from their jacket and trousers.
Thanks Guys
TBH we didn't actually ski today
I woke in the car at Mottaret with the intention of skiing what we could find.
But looking at the naked slopes n dwindling snow patches under the cannons, we decided to open up the appartment & take some painkillers for the post-drive headache. Meribel is still a bit of a ghost town so you can imagine what Brides Les Bain is like
We are heading up to VT tomorrow and feel some snow underfoot. Get a local pass. 3Vs pass seems pointless at the mo.
Was hoping to ski over to VT from the mid stations in Meribel but it was +4deg this morn so not sure what will be open. We'll stay up there for the eve, at least there should be somewhere to eat
@Mike Pow, wish you'd been my instructor all them years ago......
Thanks and it's never too late to rethink skiing.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
lynseyf wrote:
Thanks Mike Pow that's answered the questions I had.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
I like the Mike Pow method. That is excellent skiing for a 1 or 2 day skier and the posture is way better than many who have been through a week or more of trad progression.
Most importantly the pupil seems to have developed their own feel for what skis are doing and is able to correct rather than repeating a robotic pattern of movements.
I totally agree this method is working well for James but I just couldn't see my 67 year old very nervous mum being so happy letting her skis run like that on day 1 (or day 10). However Mike Pow's explanation of how he physically controls the students speed explains what he does with more nervous and less athletic skiers than James, i could imagine my mum might like having someone hold her arm the whole time
I didn't teach John to ski but he's bought in to what I advocate, changed the way he approaches skiing and is enjoying it more than ever.
@Mike Pow, forgive a somewhat non-technically worded question. I see from your videos that your pupils learn from the outset to wait for their skis to do the work, while their bodies remains almost spookily calm and upright (without much, if any, pole plant, I think). I can also see from your latest photo of Nerys, and from other videos you have posted of more experienced skiers, that there comes a stage when the whole thing becomes a lot more dynamic, yes the body remains calm, but not quite so upright and the legs look as though they are doing more work, plus there is some pole planting going on. How do you get your pupils to that next, more dynamic stage? Maybe it just comes naturally on steeper slopes?
Sorry if I haven't explained too well what I mean.
That's how it may appear - your pupils learn from the outset to wait for their skis to do the work, while their bodies remains almost spookily calm and upright (without much, if any, pole plant, I think) - but what's actually happening is they are constantly attempting to balance with the slope which allows them to pivot and edge their skis effortlessly across the fall line.
As their speed on snow increases and/or they want to take a more technical line then the speed in which they find that balance increases with more bending and extending of the ankle, knee and hip (in that order) to manage the forces generated.
But not at the expense of a quiet upper body. They're not Leonard Bernstein conducting the New York Philharmonic waving their poles around like his baton.
I always find in interesting that not teaching pole planting is seen as the work of the devil but you don't see a lot of pole planting in high end racing and especially in the POV edits where the skier is holding a pole in one hand and using the other hand to balance.
Then it seems it's acceptable.
More dynamism is a natural development of managing increased speed and quicker movements.
Hope that helps.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Before I very rarely ever used poles.
Since starting back I have done so because I use them on the tow to lean on and take pressure off my knees.
It is always good to ski without them or better still take them off someone who thinks they are essential to ski.
FC
Hope the conditions are better higher up the mountain.
How come you bought a local pass rather than a season pass ( sure you said you were hoping to do the season but now just multiple trips which would still make a season pass good value )
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
I like the Mike Pow method. That is excellent skiing for a 1 or 2 day skier and the posture is way better than many who have been through a week or more of trad progression.
Agree totally, exactly the kind of teaching that I'd like to have in order to develop as a skier. I know he isn't exactly going to post a video of the numpties that don't get the hang of it but all the clips that I've seen from Mike show a skier that seems relaxed and at ease with skiing, at what ever level they're at.
@Mike Pow do you find that the nursery slopes in Japan are more suited to beginners? Not sure if it's a trick of the camera but always seems like they are good gentle gradients for a long way, which differs from anything I've come across. Seems like it would be so much more enjoyable learning at somewhere like that compared to a session in a fridge. I went to La Plagne last year with a beginner (I'm not exactly experienced myself) and had heard and read that it was a good choice for learners, but by the time he got off the nursery slopes it seemed that every blue run we went on had a bit so steep that he either fell a lot or ended up unclipping...all of which knackered his confidence.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@speed098, you're probly right about the economy of the season pass.
It went in the trash with the rest of the season plans when real life got in the way.
I got as far as the accommodation and winter tyres.
I will reconsider it, given that I'm still hoping for a jan/Feb trip and several wks at Easter.
Re: Conds.
Gonna do VT tomorrow. If it looks better in Les Arcs, La Plagne we'll drive over there in subsequent days.
Might even go as far as Tignes if I have to for a decent ski. I did it on a Snoworks Safari so why not.
Does anyone know if you get an option of a days skiing in Espace Killy or PDS with a 3Vs pass I seem to recall??
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Mike Pow,
Quote:
they are constantly attempting to balance with the slope
How?
Quote:
not at the expense of a quiet upper body
Absolutely. I think we should all aspire to that.
Quote:
not teaching pole planting
What do your pupils use the poles for? There must be some purpose, since you allow them to keep the poles.
Quote:
More dynamism is a natural development of managing increased speed and quicker movements
That makes sense.
Thank you.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Pedantica,
A trike does not really help you learn to ride/balance on a bike, The snowplough is like a trike it is a very solid platform that does not really allow the body to do what it naturally does ( learn to balance ). If you stood on a balance board would you just stay still till you fell off ? Or would you make small adjustments to try and stay balanced on it ?
Your body will make small adjustments almost involuntary/re-flexibly and part and parcel of that is you try and keep your upper body as still/quiet as you can.
The amount of people you see learning snowplough turns who muscle the turn round with massive upper body rotation shows that the snowplough is too stable a platform to allow the body to react naturally to what it is designed to do.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@speed098, interesting, thanks.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
speed098 wrote:
The snowplough is like a trike it is a very solid platform that does not really allow the body to do what it naturally does ( learn to balance ).
I think a snowplough provides an opportunity for new skiers to develop good movement patterns and steering skills (mainly rotary) while travelling at speeds which are not intimidating, providing it is taught well. It can even provide an unusual way for advanced skiers to discover and address some weaknesses in their skiing. I think the snowplough is a much maligned and perhaps misunderstood aspect of skiing.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I hate the snowplough as it really hurts my knees, so I never really bothered with it.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
SnoodyMcFlude wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
I like the Mike Pow method. That is excellent skiing for a 1 or 2 day skier and the posture is way better than many who have been through a week or more of trad progression.
Agree totally, exactly the kind of teaching that I'd like to have in order to develop as a skier. I know he isn't exactly going to post a video of the numpties that don't get the hang of it but all the clips that I've seen from Mike show a skier that seems relaxed and at ease with skiing, at what ever level they're at.
Thanks.
My students get to see the unedited video and the still image sequences of themselves skiing as an addition to the on snow instruction.
The vids are edited and don't show falls and bad form and the best images are selected.
These then form the media which records their ability at that time and serves to positvely reinforce what they've achieved and hopefully encorage further learning.
Quote:
@Mike Pow do you find that the nursery slopes in Japan are more suited to beginners? Not sure if it's a trick of the camera but always seems like they are good gentle gradients for a long way, which differs from anything I've come across. Seems like it would be so much more enjoyable learning at somewhere like that compared to a session in a fridge. I went to La Plagne last year with a beginner (I'm not exactly experienced myself) and had heard and read that it was a good choice for learners, but by the time he got off the nursery slopes it seemed that every blue run we went on had a bit so steep that he either fell a lot or ended up unclipping...all of which knackered his confidence.
The terrain and snow conditions on Hokkaido are superb for learning and developing and are a major factor why I work here.
In Europe the best terrain for learning I've experienced is at Civetta, Valzoldana, Italy.
Never evers and beginners take a small gondola up to the summit plateau which has a restaurant, a t-bar, and a dedicated beginner's area.
From the outset they get to experience the views and superior snow conditons at the top of the mountain and once they're ready to leave the beginner's area they don't have to get on a lift they just keep on skiing the green run to the bottom of the resort.
Inspired.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Pedantica wrote:
@Mike Pow,
Quote:
they are constantly attempting to balance with the slope
How?
Balancing laterally on flat skis with the angle of the slope, with more balance on the new downhill ski which enables the skis to pivot with the minimum of edge angle.
Pedantica wrote:
Quote:
not teaching pole planting
What do your pupils use the poles for? There must be some purpose, since you allow them to keep the poles.
To pole on the flats
To act as balance aids
e.g. if a student turns from right to left there should be more balance on the right ski (downhill) than the left ski (uphill).
If the pole tip of the right pole (downhill) is not in contact or close to the snow surface the upper body will be balanced too far inside the turn (weighted uphill).
In poor weather with low visibility lightly dragging the pole tips through the turn will give an indication of the slope steepness for the upcoming turn.
Not trying to belittle snowplough it is essential skill even for the very best skiers but like anything it has limitations and can be taught badly.
Yes it is great to take any skiers but especially good skiers who are at least L8 and above on your inside out levels back to snowplough.
I have had to help too many who have had lessons and then came to me with horrendous upperbody/shoulder rotation. But equally I have had skiers come to me who's snowplough was near on perfect textbook.
I have had a few that have progressed on the same lines Mike Pow, has demonstrated above. Adapt to the pupil's needs not the instructors preferred progression of instruction.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
speed098 wrote:
Adapt to the pupil's needs not the instructors preferred progression of instruction.
Agreed but surely this goes both ways ie. some skiers may really benefit from learning a snow plough turn as their first turn?
@lynseyf, well said. Any dogma is nonsense. If plough/pole plants help the individual great and if not at that moment in their development then fine also. Far better to teach a customer a full range of skills that they can utilise as required. Any ski school and there are a few that market themselves as having found the secret of ski instruction is best avoided. Just focus on developing the fundamental skills.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I've had the opportunity to teach the plough and not teach the plough to 'never evers'.
I believe wholeheartedly that the latter is the better method and I'm very happy that I'm not governed by the dogma of a national organisation.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@lynseyf, @TTT,
An instructor may start with the snowplough turn but may change to the same methods Mike Pow, uses because that is what is best at that moment for the pupil or vice versa, in other words as I said the INSTRUCTOR adapts to the pupil not the pupil to the instructor.
Any good instructor should be able to do this as required and identify very quickly when it is needed. A bad instructor will keep pushing one method on their pupil even if it is not helping them progress, because they are not yet good enough to either identify the need to change or are unable to adapt their teaching.
For some people learning snowplough is best for others it is the method Mike Pow, uses and for others it will be something in-between.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@TTT,
For me the first two priorities of an instructor with beginners is,
Safety
Enjoyment
Nothing else really matters in the first few lessons you progress at a rate the pupil is comfortable with and ensure the two points above because safety is paramount and enjoyment is essential if the person is to continue skiing. Once they are hooked and they enjoy skiing and lessons there is more chance they will become a good skier with excellent piste etiquette.
@Mike Pow, I think to some degree you have hit the nail on the head re not being constricted by the teaching methods of one particular organisation.
This may be a big issue for lower qualified instructors who themselves may not be of a high enough level within their own skiing to be able to adapt, and their gov body has taught them only a set repertoire. This has advantages but also some serious disadvantages. The advantage is to try and attain a consistent std and style of instruction so pupils can receive lessons from different instructors. But the drawbacks are to me more important the lack of flexibility and adaptability at the lower levels can potentially leave pupils struggling and not enjoying the sport.
Hopefully the lack of posts from FC indicate he is having a great time and the snow is excellent
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@speed098, agree with all that although learning does lead to enjoyment. Any organisation way is only a framework and all organisations from various nations have emphasized to me good fundamentals rather than a particular learning method. I now know anything else is just marketing and don't waste any more time and money.
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