 Poster: A snowHead
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ALQ, skid then grip (or vice versa) in the same turn can be tricky but fun 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| ALQ, skid then grip (or vice versa) in the same turn can be tricky but fun |
agreed, they had me doing that at the end of the last season, takes a few goes to get the brain and feet working!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Megamum wrote: |
| sunnbuel, I'm perfectly happy to be a thicko. If I ski a snowplough on anything with a gradient and I don't want to go too fast my skis are like a giant slice of pizza and I am probably balanced on the left hand edge of the right hand ski and the right hand edge of the left hand ski. If I want to go faster I narrow the slice of pizza - the tails of the skis are closer, but I am still balanced on the left hand edge of the right hand ski and the right hand edge of the left hand ski. |
If you are doing ploughs / plows, a more efficient movement would be to flatten both skis lessening the inside edge angle of both skis.
Moving from the 'braking plough / plow / wedge' to the 'gliding plough / plow / wedge'.
This will reduce your resistance on the snow surface and result in an increase in speed on snow.
| Quote: |
| If I want to ease my trajectory to the left then in simple terms when I learned I sticking a bit more pressure through the left hand edge of the right hand ski and if I want to go to the right I was sticking a bit more pressure through the right hand edge of the left hand ski. Widening and narrowing the pizza wedge may have required that I twist the skis on the snow to make the distance between the tails wider or narrower, but I was still balanced on the opposite edges of the skis - the left hand edge of the right hand ski and the right hand edge of the left hand ski and regardless of how big the pizza slice was I was still turning as described above. I guess the feet twist the skis' tails inward or outward to control the speed and in that respect they are MIRRORING each other, but to suggest that rotate both feet in the SAME direction to me suggests that both feet are consciously rotated to the left or the right and sounds plain confusing when as a beginner I am sure it was the pressuring of the opposite skis that did the turning and if the feet moved then this was a result of that outside ski being pressured rather than a cause (perhaps it shouldn't have been?). If this is thick, then I am completely happy to be so. |
Increasing the balance and pressure on the left hand edge of the right ski will result in that ski turning to the left.
However, if you don't flatten the left ski and actively pressure the left hand edge of the left ski then this 'left / inside / uphill' ski will be working in competition with and in opposition to the 'right / outside / downhill' ski.
This is where franzClammer is having difficulty with his students I think, and is one of the limitations of the 'braking plough / plow / wedge' stance.
If both skis are flattened then it is possible to rotate both feet in the same direction - to the left for example - whilst in a plough / plow / wedge / pizza shape.
Once the turn to the left has been initiated by rotating / pivotting both feet in the same direction at the same time and the student is balanced with the slope on both skis, as the turn develops more left hand / inside / uphill edge on both skis will occur.
Hope that has simplified it for you.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 15-10-14 19:00; edited 1 time in total
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Megamum, i said i was the thicko - not you 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Mike Pow, perhaps there is a lack of translation/understanding in the difference between edging (and on which edges) and rotation and how this could affect said edges. As the student said to the teacher 'first clarity'!!! LOL
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sunnbuel, yeah, but I thought 'well if the cap fits'............................ 
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Mike Pow, perhaps there is a lack of translation/understanding in the difference between edging (and on which edges) and rotation and how this could affect said edges. As the student said to the teacher 'first clarity'!!! LOL |
For franzClammer's students or in my response to what you wrote?
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| Quote: |
perhaps there is a lack of translation/understanding in the difference between edging (and on which edges) and rotation
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to me, edging and rotation are utterly different things and sometimes shouldn't be mixed at all! There's a good exercise - 180 sideslips is the name I was taught - where you rotate the skis through 180 right and left whilst going straight down a hill - ideally within the length of the skis though that is a counsel of perfection and generally eludes me! You must keep the skis flat or it gets nasty. You can play around with the same thing going up an easy draglift if you are good enough - I went up a long drag behind an ESF instructor doing it beautifully but personally was content to admire from behind (and admire the behind......) whilst getting safely to the top with dignity intact.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, hope it fits well  ....... now read this verrrrry carefulllly, as an adult learner some years ago i somehow got the impression that edging and pressure was the only way to turn the skis and i ended up doing the classic traverse of death before a stepped turn, hanging onto edges for dear life.........................then after meeting a fabulous level 4 coach who took me back to straight running, flat skis, balancing and jumping the skis to get centered, and working on the 'feeling' not 'thinking' about the technical bits, he introduced steering the skis around a curve on a very gentle slope, just by turning the legs, little or no edge, and holding onto the curve and skidding to control speed........and it worked even in a narrow gliding plough. That ability to skid and leg steer the skis was a pivotal moment for me. From then on skiing was about the feeling and emotion and the techy bits were an add on, i coud then play with edging and pressure.......
so perhaps, you need to just accept what folk are telling you, that the legs can both be steered (or rotated) the same way in a plough (more difficult the wider the plough is) and - this is the important bit - just go out there and play, be prepared to fall, be prepared to be bambi, dont try to look like a skier, dont think techy, just move around and feel what happens......good luck (phew - exhausted now  )
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IMV, fC has been perfectly clear with his question and the intended audience.
I think the difficulty that has arisen is with those who have no knowledge of the BASI manual (or have forgotten it) and have tried to interpret the question in a number of different ways based on their limited understanding and, in the end, have ended up confusing each other.
fC has been polite in thanking everyone for their input but this seems to have confused some even more.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| altis wrote: |
| I think the difficulty that has arisen is with those who have no knowledge of the BASI manual (or have forgotten it) and have tried to interpret the question in a number of different ways based on their limited understanding and, in the end, have ended up confusing each other. |
Ahhhh the sacred BASI Manual, if only I understood it. Do you have one that I could at least touch, if only for a few seconds?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I fear that much of this is the confused confusing the confused 
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| altis wrote: |
I think the difficulty that has arisen is with those who have no knowledge of the BASI manual (or have forgotten it) and have tried to interpret the question in a number of different ways based on their limited understanding and, in the end, have ended up confusing each other.
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The physics of pivotting & edging skis is not the sole purview of BASI.
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You know it makes sense.
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sunnbuel, I think we have probably had similar 'lightbulb' moments. It's a good feeling when you find you can do that. However, I am going to play with the snowplough further, just to see what happens.
altis, this is SH's; the intended audience is, of course, out there, plus the world and his/her wife/husband, offspring, various levels of cousins, aunts, uncles and hangers on. I wouldn't mind betting that somewhere there is a sacred BASI forum that only BASI's can log onto, but I'll wager it's not half as entertaining
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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so franzClammer asked;
Something that would help immensely would be: Any tips on how to explain to learners how to initiate rotating the feet simultaneously to achieve change in direction whilst in a gliding plough
I do demonstrate rotation of the leg by creating a butterfly shape in the snow, but that's one foot at a time with a solid leverage point ie the other foot.
Do you guys talk about the core and muscle groups. I'm looking for a simple principle that learners can focus on, something they can feel. Just saying "point the feet" doesn't seem to be sufficient for such a crucial skill
Any advice appreciated[/quote]
as a client i agree 'point the feet' just didn't work for me - but the exercise of jumping parallel skis around in standing and then in a gentle schuss did- and it did so within 10 mins - infact everyone iv'e seen who has tried that exercise then understood leg rotation
there again......what do i know.......megamum and i are just members of the 'thicko' club 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Megamum wrote: |
| I wouldn't mind betting that somewhere there is a sacred BASI forum that only BASI's can log onto, |
Nope, at least not one that I've found.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Megamum wrote: |
| I wouldn't mind betting that somewhere there is a sacred BASI forum that only BASI's can log onto, |
Nope, at least not one that I've found. |
Does the basi facebook page count?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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These last few pages have made it patently obvious why an instructor must be able to demonstrate exactly what he/she/it is trying to get across in words. I'm sure FC can do a fabulous snow plough turn, but if I tried to do what I thought he had initially explained I would be spending a month in a fracture clinic
Megamum, I'm with you (in being very glad I don't often have to resort to them).
Confused of Dorset
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I have seen students lying on their back while a trainer grabs the skis yelling "pivot with your legs not your ****ing shoulders". When you lie on your back the upper body is immobilised, especially if augmented by a ski boot to the throat.
They were members of the ultimate thicko club, Brit gap year trainee ski instructors, so the language was entirely appropriate  .
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FC - I've taken the liberty of doubling your next batch of Sarf Lundun Special blend of herbs and spices
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| kitenski wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Megamum wrote: |
| I wouldn't mind betting that somewhere there is a sacred BASI forum that only BASI's can log onto, |
Nope, at least not one that I've found. |
Does the basi facebook page count? |
No, the world and his wife etc are on there too
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musher,
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but if I tried to do what I thought he had initially explained I would be spending a month in a fracture clinic
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Thank you - I am sooooo glad it wasn't just me, sunnbuel, seems to agree with us.................I am now in a position musher, to offer you membership of the very exclusive 'thicko club' soon to have a forum thread of its very own.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think we all need to book a group lesson with franzClammer at the same time, someone please bring a BASI Manual too so we can revert to the Oracle when any of us are being a bit too thick.
Confused of Vienna.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think I actually have a basi manual somewhere still.....circa 1999 - ring binder sheets we got one section at a time while training. I 'll bring it a along, although personally I think altis should teach
Fwiw megamum I agree I pressure not rotate, just thought the image of narrow\wider might help check we were all thinking of the same axis at least!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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franzClammer, I've been thinking about this all week too now despite trying not to
FWIW I really think it all comes down to the terrain indoors. Most of us know (although probably not everyone reading the thread) that the gradient of the indoor slopes is not the ideal one for teaching beginner skiers as it is too steep. But that's the terrain we have and we have to do the best with it. Therefore IMO it's really hard to teach a gentle, small gliding plough as the steepness of the slope demands a bigger shaped plough than we'd ideally want to see. Knock on is that a bigger plough is much harder to keep on flat skis than a small plough shape and so the learner very often ends up 'locked' on an edge.
Just about everyone I know has had the comment 'smaller plough' in their BASI L1 feedback (indoors) but then a lot of the experienced instructors say that a small plough is all well and good but it doesn't work on the indoor terrain.
Before my L1 I had a week away with some training and spent some time on the CT, it was much easier to do and demonstrate small gliding ploughs and turns on real green slopes. Indoor slopes are too steep to keep the plough small enough to be on flat skis (for most people) to be able to 'play' with just rotation of the feet without unintentionally involving any of the other steering elements.
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You know it makes sense.
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| sarah wrote: |
franzClammer, I've been thinking about this all week too now despite trying not to
FWIW I really think it all comes down to the terrain indoors. Most of us know (although probably not everyone reading the thread) that the gradient of the indoor slopes is not the ideal one for teaching beginner skiers as it is too steep. But that's the terrain we have and we have to do the best with it. Therefore IMO it's really hard to teach a gentle, small gliding plough as the steepness of the slope demands a bigger shaped plough than we'd ideally want to see. Knock on is that a bigger plough is much harder to keep on flat skis than a small plough shape and so the learner very often ends up 'locked' on an edge.
Just about everyone I know has had the comment 'smaller plough' in their BASI L1 feedback (indoors) but then a lot of the experienced instructors say that a small plough is all well and good but it doesn't work on the indoor terrain.
Before my L1 I had a week away with some training and spent some time on the CT, it was much easier to do and demonstrate small gliding ploughs and turns on real green slopes. Indoor slopes are too steep to keep the plough small enough to be on flat skis (for most people) to be able to 'play' with just rotation of the feet without unintentionally involving any of the other steering elements. |
Great post Sarah.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Why then are indoor slopes built without a suitable beginners area, where students can glide without braking?!
My own introduction to teaching was bus parties on Cairngorm, long before the funicular made the top of the hill more accessible, and suitable slopes with a runout were at an absolute premium. The bottom of the main slopes at Hillend are superb in contrast, gentle to flat with a giant crash mat, and of course you need less runout on plastic anyway.
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Poster: A snowHead
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balernoStu, time/space/money I'd guess....no space for a very, very gentle slope!
sarah, very interesting point. Here's an idea that may also be fun for younger skiers, pair them off and get one to drag the other along on the flat and then practise the glide and the feet rotation. Do folk think that would work???
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| balernoStu wrote: |
| Why then are indoor slopes built without a suitable beginners area, where students can glide without braking?! |
Last year I was talking to a consultant for the (now stalled) indoor slope at Weston SM and their plan is for a nursery slope with a much more sensible gradient. I think Hemel might have been constrained as it was built on the side of a hill (the old dry slope) and perhaps the earth moving work to flatten it would't have been possible?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Mike Pow, thank you
Well what I heard about the gradients is that it's a commercial decision based on balancing the differing needs of skiers, snowboarders(they need steeper) and the fun activities such as tubing/sledging etc. So it's a best compromise.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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kitenski, rob@rar, sarah yes I imagine those would be the constraints, with slopes needing to be multi-purpose in a confined space. I do wonder sometimes though if designers just underestimate how flat a slope beginners benefit most from.
Hillend isn't perfect, btw, as the slope gets steeper thereafter too quickly imv, but then it is on a natural hill. In fact the ideal progression around here may be first 2-4hrs at Hillend then onto the main slope at Breahead, as the lower half of the main slope there is quite gentle.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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balernoStu, yes when I did my l2 CT stuff we used a wide path that looked flat to the naked eye but had just enough slope to get moving.......
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Best place i've taught fdb was Turoa, NZ. The slope went from flat with a runout to almost imperceptably steeper, continuing long enough for an ok beginner run with slow button lift*, and separated from the main slopes so no through traffic. *So slow that you could put a small class on the tow then skate up the run to meet them arriving at the top!
Back then ('94) NZSIA already taught beginners to steer a narrow plough before any talk of pressure, which was a new scheme to me but worked very well on that slope.
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The nursery slope at Hemel doesn't seem too excedsive to real world bunny slopes particularly if starting. from lower down.
I think there is a masdive opportunity in the ski instruction market for simplification of terminology and adoption of a clear and simple model for students. Frinstance you coulfd distill the elements into balance, edge and twist and express everything in terms of these with the objective of getting students to feel these elements. Even pressure control and angulation can be developed as more advanced balance themes. The stivot is a combination of edge and twist etc.
Same holds for snowboarding and tele.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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3Oclock - 9Oclock Braquage
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and Braquage / sideslips aren't easy to do at the indoor snowdome's because the snow tends to be so loose.
So, here's a question for everyone to argue about: whilst doing either braquage or sideslips do you want to have a completely flat ski? Debate
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FAQ
holes on here 
