 Poster: A snowHead
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| franzClammer wrote: |
Cacciatore, all systems will have their flaws. However if you know of a better way to teach skiing please divulge it.
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As a trained trainer (not skiing), the "demonstrate, do, review, apply" method works well in any number of situations/practices. Learning to teach people and communicating effectively doesn't solely rely on experience in the subject matter, particularly in my experience of learning how to train/coach and develop people.
Incidentally, I did, in my earlier post, comment on a way of conveying learning that, to my mind, seemed to be both accurate and achievable.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| franzClammer wrote: |
| ... if you are being taught in the UK by IOS, New Gen or even Snoworks then you are being taught using the BASI system. |
I don't think it is that straightforward. I don't teach to a BASI template/system, in fact if you asked me to describe it I'd have to confess I'm not sure if there is a BASI system. What I teach is based on a wide range of things: my experience as a learner (I've had a lot of coaching from a wide range of well regarded coaches); my experience of teaching skiing to a range of clients; my experience of coaching staff before I became a ski instructor; the work I have done to pass BASI exams; working with skimottaret and the other IOS coaches; non-BASI sources of information such as the Canadian coaching system; writing from people like Ron LeMaster, even general life experience, etc, etc, etc. At the higher level BASI qualifications the assessed teaching modules demand a level of creativity and individuality. A couple of coaches who have influenced my teaching the most also have top level qualifications in the Canadian and Austrian systems.
All of this means that I don't think there is such a thing as a single "BASI system". That's not to say that my BASI experience hasn't influenced my teaching, that's far from the truth. But IMO, just because an instructor is qualified in a particular system there is no guarantee that you will get a similar experience to another instructor who is also qualified in the same system. Education, the interaction between teacher and student, is far too complex for it to be that simple.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Back on topic, regardless of whether FC's initial question related to problems with straight glides or problems with equal left/right plough turns, I think asymmetric rotary steering is a fairly common problem amongst new skiers. I've seen it several times, and I'm not the most experienced instructor of beginners. Regardless of whether it was a straight glide or a plough turn problem my approach to helping my client would be the same, as described above.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| ...in fact if you asked me to describe it I'd have to confess I'm not sure if there is a BASI system. |
I think the progression is based around a 'theme' rather than a 'system' to leave plenty scope for the attentive instructor to tailor lessons to their pupils' requirements, instead of being entirely prescriptive.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| balernoStu wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| ...in fact if you asked me to describe it I'd have to confess I'm not sure if there is a BASI system. |
I think the progression is based around a 'theme' rather than a 'system' to leave plenty scope for the attentive instructor to tailor lessons to their pupils' requirements, instead of being entirely prescriptive. |
Yes, that's probably a good way to describe it. Beyond the Central Theme there seems to be no structured progression to follow/take inspiration from.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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kieranm,
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the part the notable exceptions have that some of the rest of us are missing is lots of experience. This is a bit of a chicken and egg problem, as to get the experience you need a licence to teach, but to teach really well you need the experience
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Fair point.
franzClammer,
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FYI if you are being taught in the UK by IOS, New Gen or even Snoworks then you are being taught using the BASI system.
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I've only been taught in the UK by IOS (not counting one deadly Warren Smith day at Hemel) and I think they have a lot more going for them than their mere BASI qualifications*. I've been taught by New Gen, Snoworks and Inspired to Ski abroad, and the standard of tuition has been variable.
Edit: *see Rob's post above, which I hadn't seen before I posted.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 14-10-14 17:31; edited 1 time in total
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| balernoStu wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| ...in fact if you asked me to describe it I'd have to confess I'm not sure if there is a BASI system. |
I think the progression is based around a 'theme' rather than a 'system' to leave plenty scope for the attentive instructor to tailor lessons to their pupils' requirements, instead of being entirely prescriptive. |
Yes, that's probably a good way to describe it. Beyond the Central Theme there seems to be no structured progression to follow/take inspiration from. |
And yet there's a marked difference in the way a BASI instructor skis from the way a CSIA instructor skis from the way a PSIA instructor skis from the way an AASI instructor skis etc in my eyes at least.
And the way in which their students ski.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
| And yet there's a marked difference in the way a BASI instructor skis from the way a CSIA instructor skis from the way a PSIA instructor skis from the way an AASI instructor skis etc in my eyes at least. |
I've seen a lot of BASI Trainers (examiners) ski, and there can be a big, big difference between them. All extremely good skiers, obviously, but a lot of individuality and creativity. I think at lower levels of BASI, and perhaps other national systems, there is more emphasis on bringing all candidates up to a reasonably uniform standard to ensure they can ski and teach to an acceptable standard. At L3 and L4 there is much greater allowance (and emphasis) on personal performance and individuality in their skiing. I see a lot of divergence in how Trainers and instructors at that level ski (based on solid core technique, of course).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Back on topic, regardless of whether FC's initial question related to problems with straight glides or problems with equal left/right plough turns, I think asymmetric rotary steering is a fairly common problem amongst new skiers. I've seen it several times, and I'm not the most experienced instructor of beginners. Regardless of whether it was a straight glide or a plough turn problem my approach to helping my client would be the same, as described above. |
Based on years of struggle with this problem for both my students and myself, when I have the opportunity to teach 'never-evers' it is
on a 1:1 basis only, and
it doesn't involve them learning to plough / plow
IMHO the plough /plow is the preferred starting point for most ski associations because they want to maximise the ratio of student to instructor.
And teaching the braking plough / plow to control speed and stop is the only way to safely achieve that aim when an instructor is teaching more than one student.
Learning to drive is always 1:1
Learning to ride a bike is always 1:1
Why should learning to ski be any different?
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 14-10-14 18:59; edited 1 time in total
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
| IMHO the plough /plow is the preferred starting point for most ski associations because they want to maximise the ratio of student to instructor. |
I really disagree with that. I think the plough as a starting point and the progression described by BASI's Central Theme (which is pretty similar to other national associations as I understand it) provides a good opportunity for new skiers to travel at speeds they are comfortable with, allows them to make solid progress in a reasonably amount of time, and if taught well provides movement patterns which provide a solid foundation for skiing all the mountain. IMO it has nothing to do with holding back clients so they can be taught in groups sizes bigger than 1:1.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Mike Pow, do you ever introduce the plough? I've used it off piste when coming back home on narrow goat tracks etc in Europe to control speed where you couldn't do anything else to control speed so do thinks it's a useful tool to have.....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Mike Pow wrote: |
| IMHO the plough /plow is the preferred starting point for most ski associations because they want to maximise the ratio of student to instructor. |
I really disagree with that. I think the plough as a starting point and the progression described by BASI's Central Theme (which is pretty similar to other national associations as I understand it) provides a good opportunity for new skiers to travel at speeds they are comfortable with, allows them to make solid progress in a reasonably amount of time, and if taught well provides movement patterns which provide a solid foundation for skiing all the mountain. IMO it has nothing to do with holding back clients so they can be taught in groups sizes bigger than 1:1. |
I'm well aware that I'm in the minority - often a minority of one  - on this and other skiing related viewpoints.
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| kitenski wrote: |
| Mike Pow, do you ever introduce the plough? I've used it off piste when coming back home on narrow goat tracks etc in Europe to control speed where you couldn't do anything else to control speed so do thinks it's a useful tool to have..... |
If there is a narrow choke that opens back up into wider terrain then I teach my students to decelerate before the choke, then straightline the choke accepting that their speed on snow will increase, and then use the turn shape in the wider terrain after the choke to reduce the speed which has built up.
In the same way I teach them to make the turn below obstacles not above them, trees for example.
If the 'goat track' is narrower than the length of the skis inhibiting pivotting and turning as the preferred method of speed control, then out of necessity I will demonstrate and suggest the gliding plough/ plow to control the build up of speed.
Similarly going in to poorly set out and/or steep lift queuing areas there may be a need to introduce the plough / plow.
But this is after the student has been instructed to learn to control speed on snow by pivotting, edging and completing the turn with parallel skis.
The student won't keep both skis perfectly parallel throughout each and every turn, but they set out to do so each and every turn.
I find it interesting to watch POV (point of view) helmet cam footage and observe how many skiers are stemming going into turns, even very accomplished skiers. However for them it appears to be their go to move.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Tue 14-10-14 20:18; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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Chill out. It ain't a court case. You said this, I said that... Blimey!
I'll catch up later I've got a class to teach
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Plough is for kids (mainly because I cannot do it.....)
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Poster: A snowHead
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franzClammer, the point I obviously didn't make very well was that if your confusing folk on here, what hope do your students have of understanding?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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franzClammer, sorry if you're feeling criticised, certainly not my intention. I'm just sharing what I think works, although there being no hard and fast rules about such things it's inevitable that there is going to be debate and differences of opinion.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, no worries mate. I have a lot worse than criticism in my time.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Megamum think about widening a plough. Would you say that's both feet rotating the same way ( in or out depending on your viewpoin) or different ways (one clockwise one anti clockwise or left/right if you prefer)?
I'd say its feet rotating different ways, whereas in a turn they both rotate the same way (clockwise or anticlockwise depending on where you wantto go)
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If everyone taught exactly the same, everyone would ski the same. What a boring world that would be.
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franzClammer, I clearly am not making myself clear, it's not meant to be criticism. I'm thoroughly confused and will walk away from the keyboard 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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DB, 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Megamum, normally quiet on these 'guru' matters but I shall put forward some thicko observations...........
agree with Mike Pow that often a braking plough is the default position because teaching terrain is too steep for clients comfort zone and that position inhibits natural movement patterns and centered balance, however, a narrow gliding plough can benefit as the skis are both already skidding which makes leg rotation easier and it is possible to rotate both legs in the same direction is a narrow gliding plough......now i shall get back in my box 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have not commented before in this particular discussion as I am very much old school skiing. but from what I have seen of the BASI courses at CFe they do teach a pretty std routine which at BASI lvl1 and to a lesser degree at BASI lvl2 I see no issue with. The reason IMO is two fold it is to ensure a uniformed min std for new instructors but also it will allow beginners to progress at a more steady pace even if they have different instructors as the lesson core will be the same.
The issue is as mentioned above no two skiers are the same as no two tennis players, archers, golfers etc etc. but given a few exceptions to the rule most learn std elements of the given sport in a structured way and then as they improve they develop their own style ie the way that works best for their body. Now in a 1:1 lesson you can structure lessons to suit someone from the start but in group lessons ( also used to keep costs of learning down to open the sport to more people and also to allow for natural drop off ) this is impractical and would slow the rate of learning drastically.
Pretty much most of the comments above have merit even dode, saying we would all ski the same because at the very earliest stages of the sport yes skiing the same/very similar is desirable to allow people to have lessons with different instructors, yet still progress. Mike Pow, states the ideal image of teaching IMO being 1;1 moving at the rate that best suits the client and best suits their body geometry and fitness.
But no matter what the structure all elements are essential for a rounded skier we all need to know how to plow how to sideslip how to steer the skis and how to carve but we also need to learn to feel what is happening and understand to realise there are a myriad number of ways to make these planks work the way we want them to. So there never will be one answer to everything and the above discussion IMO highlights that.
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I learnt to ski so long ago that my bad habits (including too ready a use of a snow plough) are probably there for life, despite lots of lessons. But am learning cross-country skiing at present, which I find much more difficult. It's difficult to brake with narrow skis with no edges, so speed control is vital from the outset and instructors insist upon it. I have just about mastered a basic "demi chasse neige" where you lift one ski out of the tracks but a full snowplough (the tracks disappear in steeper sections) is very difficult and even accomplished cross country skiers struggle with it sometimes (Olympic competitors fall.....). The expert way of changing direction is with a series of "little steps" a bit like an ice skater. A lot easier said than done and I don't see how a complete beginner could even think about it. My default on sections where my wobbly snowplough is too unreliable is to take the skis off and walk...  At least they are light to carry and the boots are comfortable!!
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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sunnbuel, I'm perfectly happy to be a thicko. If I ski a snowplough on anything with a gradient and I don't want to go too fast my skis are like a giant slice of pizza and I am probably balanced on the left hand edge of the right hand ski and the right hand edge of the left hand ski. If I want to go faster I narrow the slice of pizza - the tails of the skis are closer, but I am still balanced on the left hand edge of the right hand ski and the right hand edge of the left hand ski.
If I want to ease my trajectory to the left then in simple terms when I learned I sticking a bit more pressure through the left hand edge of the right hand ski and if I want to go to the right I was sticking a bit more pressure through the right hand edge of the left hand ski. Widening and narrowing the pizza wedge may have required that I twist the skis on the snow to make the distance between the tails wider or narrower, but I was still balanced on the opposite edges of the skis - the left hand edge of the right hand ski and the right hand edge of the left hand ski and regardless of how big the pizza slice was I was still turning as described above. I guess the feet twist the skis' tails inward or outward to control the speed and in that respect they are MIRRORING each other, but to suggest that rotate both feet in the SAME direction to me suggests that both feet are consciously rotated to the left or the right and sounds plain confusing when as a beginner I am sure it was the pressuring of the opposite skis that did the turning and if the feet moved then this was a result of that outside ski being pressured rather than a cause (perhaps it shouldn't have been?). If this is thick, then I am completely happy to be so.
NB. If anyone sees me doing weird things on skis in a snowdome when I next hit one then stay clear because you know what I will be experimenting with on a practical basis and just seeing what the feel actually do get up to, 'cos at the moment I can't visualise a rotation of both feet in the same direction as I put above. However, I am quite prepared to be wrong and will undertake to find out for myself when I next ski - I can't say better than that! NB. don't worry I won't undo anything that I have learned as I will only be experimenting to try and find out what actually happens.
I think I made the observation above that the first thing to do is make sure pupil and instructor are speaking the same language and at the moment I would be one confused student!!!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Megamum think about widening a plough. Would you say that's both feet rotating the same way ( in or out depending on your viewpoin) or different ways (one clockwise one anti clockwise or left/right if you prefer)?
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I'd say the feet were mirroring each other
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I'd say its feet rotating different ways, whereas in a turn they both rotate the same way (clockwise or anticlockwise depending on where you wantto go)
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They do rotate in the same way when you are making a parallel turn, but I think to try and rotate them in the same direction in a snowplough would result in falling over. As I say above I think to turn in a snowplough the outside ski is pressured and any resulting rotation in either direction with either foot is a result of that pressure and not a cause. If I was a beginner in a snow plough moving across the snow and someone said now to turn 'rotate both feet in the same direction', I'd think WTH??????? 'Pressure the outside ski and let the feet move I so as to end up the arrow head pointing to where you want to go' makes far more sense IMO.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 15-10-14 14:52; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum, best not to think about these things. Just ski...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Megamum, best not to think about these things. Just ski... |
Indeed......I am finding skiing with my tiny charges most refreshing and mentally liberating
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| sarah wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Megamum, best not to think about these things. Just ski... |
Indeed......I am finding skiing with my tiny charges most refreshing and mentally liberating |
Explosive or electric charges?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, I think I'll do just that!! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| rob@rar, I think I'll do just that!! |
That's not to say you shouldn't play around with things to develop these skills, but maybe thinking about making your turns "more skiddy" or "more grippy" is a good place to start? We don't always need to delve into the physics and biomechanics of how skiing works in order to develop our skills base.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| balernoStu wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| ...in fact if you asked me to describe it I'd have to confess I'm not sure if there is a BASI system. |
I think the progression is based around a 'theme' rather than a 'system' to leave plenty scope for the attentive instructor to tailor lessons to their pupils' requirements, instead of being entirely prescriptive. |
Yes, that's probably a good way to describe it. Beyond the Central Theme there seems to be no structured progression to follow/take inspiration from. |
And yet there's a marked difference in the way a BASI instructor skis from the way a CSIA instructor skis from the way a PSIA instructor skis from the way an AASI instructor skis etc in my eyes at least.
And the way in which their students ski. |
I agree but I suspect a lot of it is in role modelling and native terrain as well as the prevailing "freeskiing" culture. I'd expect a PSIA West who has grown up billygoating Squaw to ski differently from PSIA Midwest who has done all their skiing on an icebump in Minnesota. The Arlberg assclench I don't know - intergenerational legacy. Canadian hunchback - essential defensive move against grizzly swipes.
No idea what it means for future of BASI othet than a legacy of compact skiing from development indoors.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Megamum wrote: |
| rob@rar, I think I'll do just that!! |
That's not to say you shouldn't play around with things to develop these skills, but maybe thinking about making your turns "more skiddy" or "more grippy" is a good place to start? |
...followed by "skiddy then grippy". Good fun and I think, Megamum, you would benefit greatly.
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FAQ
