 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There are some highly skilled - indeed, absolutely brilliant, skiers for whom taking big risks seems to be essential. The extreme skiers kill themselves, not infrequently. But that's at the extreme end. You can take a calculated and considered risk (preferably on the advice of One who Knows) but you do see quite a few people who don't look very competent skiing quite hard runs, out of control. That's not an acceptable risk in my book - it puts others at risk too and if their goal were to become more competent they'd probably be better off skiing an easier run well, concentrating on what they've been taught.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Megamum wrote: |
| I think there needs to be a thread 'Do you need b@11s and ability? Is one more important? If so which?' |
The balance changes depending upon where you are on the continuum. I'd say until you're relatively comfortable in reasonable form on anything pisted (however infrequently) then the proper thing is to be building skills rather than "no guts no glory" blue run bombing. At a certain level of terrain balls/ballsiness/M/WTFU definitely has a place.
Of course lots of holidaying males (Brits) believe its all about dangly bits - they're the ones skiing like gibbons, swinging their arms around sat on their heels.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
We are all free to do as we wish with our hard earned freetime & dinari, no
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Absolutely, you had a great time didn't you? so neither was wasted  No, I was just intrigued as to why you decided to do that more off-piste styled course at that point in your ski career. I have been since you said that you were going esp. as you are headed towards the instructor side of things and I would have thought that a course more focussed on that goal would have been your choice given that holiday time is often in limited supply.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Great stuff franzClammer. The scenery looked stunning.
What instruction did you get? What did you learn/gain from the course?
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| Quote: |
There are some highly skilled - indeed, absolutely brilliant, skiers for whom taking big risks seems to be essential. The extreme skiers kill themselves, not infrequently.
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Not infrequently? Really? What are your definitions of 'extreme' and 'infrequently'?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Every year seems to account for at least one "name" - someone well known, and respected, in the business. Often reported here on snowheads. Usually at least one mountain guide a year, too, or so it seems. Not daft beginners.
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I think we have different definitions of an infrequent occurrence. To me it means a 'rare' or 'uncommon' occurrence. If you take into account how many people ski extreme* routes and how often they do it I expect deaths are a rare occurrence (happy to be proven wrong).
Of course that doesn't mean it's a good idea to do it.
*depends on what 'extreme' means too.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Every year seems to account for at least one "name" - someone well known, and respected, in the business. Often reported here on snowheads. Usually at least one mountain guide a year, too, or so it seems. Not daft beginners. |
Mountain guides tends to go with the territory. Sooner or later the inexact science of avalanches will catch out someone whose office is as hostile. Same for those in the heavy ski mountaineering world.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Every year seems to account for at least one "name" - someone well known, and respected, in the business. Often reported here on snowheads. Usually at least one mountain guide a year, too, or so it seems. Not daft beginners. |
But how does this relate to me BOASTING about how I made Bellecote look easy. 
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swiftoid...and depends on how you define 'rare' and 'common' (in order to define 'uncommon').
How do you define 'good' then?
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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sarah, I will leave FC to comment on the quality/quantity of instruction but the max group size on a snoworks course is 8. If skiing with a Guide, rather than an instructor, the group size is normally 6 maximum.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ALQ wrote: |
swiftoid...and depends on how you define 'rare' and 'common' (in order to define 'uncommon').
How do you define 'good' then? |
Fair question and 'good' was probably was the wrong word to use. Perhaps I should have used 'sensible' (which I'd define as based on wisdom or prudence) instead.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Megamum wrote: |
| I think there needs to be a thread 'Do you need b@11s and ability? Is one more important? If so which?' |
The balance changes depending upon where you are on the continuum. I'd say until you're relatively comfortable in reasonable form on anything pisted (however infrequently) then the proper thing is to be building skills rather than "no guts no glory" blue run bombing. At a certain level of terrain balls/ballsiness/M/WTFU definitely has a place.
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I think you could make an argument that a certain amount of "balls" is important for building skills, though? In that you need to be comfortable with a certain amount of speed, and the fact you might fall over.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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finestgreen, that is exactly the side of things that I wonder about. Will my metaphorical lack of 'balls' mean that I'll never ski as well as my friend here, or can I compensate by the development of good technique (or at least doing my best to develop it).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| finestgreen, that is exactly the side of things that I wonder about. Will my metaphorical lack of 'balls' mean that I'll never ski as well as my friend here, or can I compensate by the development of good technique (or at least doing my best to develop it). |
Yes and I think this is kind of the point I'm at. I don't seem to have any major skiing flaws, I just get a bit scared and start skiing like poo-poo when it gets a bit tougher, my last instructor told me I need to push myself more, the gym instructor told me I need to push myself more, I was told I need to push myself more when mtbing, most of the things I can't do seem to be due to problems in my head rather than with my feet, I'm getting a shrink for next year 
FC Haven't watched all the video, just the first one but that looks nice, can't say much on your skiing but I was impressed how slow and controlled you were when doing the traverses in, a few years ago I bet you would have battered in and skied into everyone else 
FWIW, again with the caveat I haven't watched all the videos, the terrain on the first one is no steeper than anything you are skiing on piste and it looks like the route had been skied so much it was basically pisted, unless the route suddenly changed to a 40° couloir (which I doubt from the number of people skiing it) then I don't see any reason why you couldn't ski it. I also think a lot of the loss of technique you described was also due to a bit of fear of the unknown, it's a long way off piste and it's natural to be nervous when you haven't done much skiing away from the pistes. Keep at it though, I've been skiing off piste since I was still struggling on blue runs and I think it's good for your skiing to encounter different snow. Also means you'll enjoy all the lovely end of season slushy bumps when everyone else is moaning about the "condition" of the pistes.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| sarah, I will leave FC to comment on the quality/quantity of instruction but the max group size on a snoworks course is 8. If skiing with a Guide, rather than an instructor, the group size is normally 6 maximum. |
Thanks Stewart at times it looked as it was more to me. Also it looked like a guided group rather than an instructional course. Hence my questions.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| lynseyf wrote: |
Keep at it though, I've been skiing off piste since I was still struggling on blue runs and I think it's good for your skiing to encounter different snow. Also means you'll enjoy all the lovely end of season slushy bumps when everyone else is moaning about the "condition" of the pistes. |
+1
Once my students can ski a green pitch piste comfortably and in control making turns where they want to, I then take them to ski green pitch powder, green pitch crud, green pitch trees, & green pitch uneven terrain.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| finestgreen, that is exactly the side of things that I wonder about. Will my metaphorical lack of 'balls' mean that I'll never ski as well as my friend here, or can I compensate by the development of good technique (or at least doing my best to develop it). |
Is your ambition to ski steep terrain? If it is, you will need to develop a psychological comfort level to match the terrain, as well as the necessary skills.
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| finestgreen wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
| Megamum wrote: |
| I think there needs to be a thread 'Do you need b@11s and ability? Is one more important? If so which?' |
The balance changes depending upon where you are on the continuum. I'd say until you're relatively comfortable in reasonable form on anything pisted (however infrequently) then the proper thing is to be building skills rather than "no guts no glory" blue run bombing. At a certain level of terrain balls/ballsiness/M/WTFU definitely has a place.
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I think you could make an argument that a certain amount of "balls" is important for building skills, though? In that you need to be comfortable with a certain amount of speed, and the fact you might fall over. |
Yes - the terminally timid who shop so much for a turn that they are barely moving make things very difficult for themselves in terms of basic physics and arguably are just as bad as the blue run bombers (though clearly not so much as a hazard to others).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, I want to achieve the point where I can ski any of the pisted mountain in any degree of snowfall (15" of fresh heavy wet stuff to icy to robust moguls to slush on the verge of a river) in any weather conditions from blue sky to white out. i.e. that I can ride a lift in a strange location and not worry about what I am going to encounter on the way down. There, they say you should write down what you want to achieve well that's what I want to do - I hope it's achievable.
I know I am not there yet, but I don't know if it is a lack of skills or a lack of balls that is stopping me at the moment. In that respect my friend here completely out skis me with far less time on the snow than I've had. I have to say that I am envious of his metaphorical balls - though I am sure I don't want the real things!!! As I think they are what allowing him to ski what he is doing and are possibly more responsible at this moment in time than the overall skills that he has - by his own admission these are still developing. Mind you he has certainly given me an impetus to want to do as well (a bit of healthy competition if you like), but I am hoping that I can play catch-up by sorting out my skills even if my metaphorical balls aren't as big.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Megamum wrote: |
| finestgreen, that is exactly the side of things that I wonder about. Will my metaphorical lack of 'balls' mean that I'll never ski as well as my friend here, or can I compensate by the development of good technique (or at least doing my best to develop it). |
Is your ambition to ski steep terrain? If it is, you will need to develop a psychological comfort level to match the terrain, as well as the necessary skills. |
I'm not sure I agree with that as a general statement. Throughout my skiing development, I've noted from time to time that I didn't blink at something where a few years back I'd have been breathing hard, girding my loins and generally psyching myself up. I don't think I've become any braver over the years.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Megamum, it sounds as if (to pluck numbers out of thin air), your friend is happy to test himself 5% outside of his comfort zone, while you may be happy at 2% outside yours. I wouldn't worry about it unless you feel you've stopped progressing.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Megamum wrote: |
| finestgreen, that is exactly the side of things that I wonder about. Will my metaphorical lack of 'balls' mean that I'll never ski as well as my friend here, or can I compensate by the development of good technique (or at least doing my best to develop it). |
Is your ambition to ski steep terrain? If it is, you will need to develop a psychological comfort level to match the terrain, as well as the necessary skills. |
I'm not sure I agree with that as a general statement. Throughout my skiing development, I've noted from time to time that I didn't blink at something where a few years back I'd have been breathing hard, girding my loins and generally psyching myself up. I don't think I've become any braver over the years. |
I don't think your example is a perfect counter - surely all you're saying is that your confidence is proportional to your technical progression/experience?
It's if someone gets out of sync that problems can arise - I've seen perfectly technically capable skiers freeze in unfamiliar enviroments (and to a certain extent I ski far more conservatively then I need to in high consequence places) and equally seen ballsy people pinballing down big mogul fields (As I did in my yoof on more than one occasion)
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Coming to this a bit late but I'm a bit perplexed about why people are surprised by FC skiing NF of the Bellecote with an instructor in those conditions. I've not skied the line so appreciate it may look different in the flesh but I saw - great weather, pretty benign snow (not gorgeous powder obviously but quite easy to ski), nothing too steep, too narrow or with nasty run-outs. Noone in the video looked in real difficulty. Now I appreciate it is not the ideal environment for teaching intermediates or technical practice but as a fun, stretching and new experience it looked great. I wouldn't describe it as particularly ballsy.
On the question of balls versus technique my view is this
- excess balls to the extent you are out of control and a danger to others is unacceptable, grow up
- insufficient balls to the extent that you are unwilling to try things which might cause you to fall is going to stunt your development
It's a balance but I'm a firm believer that if you don't fall a bit you are not pushing yourself forward. I remember reading something that pointed out that gold medal gymnasts and ice skaters fall MORE OFTEN in training than other competitors. Because they practice difficult things until they dont fall anymore.
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You know it makes sense.
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fatbob, I wasn't aiming for a 'counter' or 'perfection' - just adding my perspective namely, that for some people, fear of heights (to use a loose description) is not an independent factor to be worked on alongside technical progression. As you say, for these people (including me) at any rate, confidence is proportional to technical ability.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
Throughout my skiing development, I've noted from time to time that I didn't blink at something where a few years back I'd have been breathing hard, girding my loins and generally psyching myself up. I don't think I've become any braver over the years.
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That's how I feel, too. But the point about balls/risk-taking leading to skill development is also valid. When we skied as a family my younger son fell as much as the rest of us put together - because he would try stuff. He was the one that went out with the BASS Val D'Isere instructors on their day off - and learnt very fast. He was always by far the best skier in the family but just took off in that company, with a few hints and tips flung at him. He is athletically able but no kind of genius - it was the balls that enabled him to progress so fast. He'd be a hopeless instructor, though. He routinely overestimates my ability and I don't trust, for a moment, his saying "You'll be fine on this, Mum". He doesn't realise how much better he is, having felt like a beginner with his BASS mates.
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Poster: A snowHead
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laundryman, I think we're in violent agreement.
I think there is a certain element around being an adult learner rather than first learning as a child. Kids certainly don't have a fear of falling or getting hurt as they spend their developmental years experimenting and (mildly) failing. It's probably the holy grail for instructors to get a bit of regression going in their students.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
Throughout my skiing development, I've noted from time to time that I didn't blink at something where a few years back I'd have been breathing hard, girding my loins and generally psyching myself up. I don't think I've become any braver over the years.
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That's how I feel, too. But the point about balls/risk-taking leading to skill development is also valid. When we skied as a family my younger son fell as much as the rest of us put together - because he would try stuff. He was the one that went out with the BASS Val D'Isere instructors on their day off - and learnt very fast. He was always by far the best skier in the family but just took off in that company, with a few hints and tips flung at him. He is athletically able but no kind of genius - it was the balls that enabled him to progress so fast. He'd be a hopeless instructor, though. He routinely overestimates my ability and I don't trust, for a moment, his saying "You'll be fine on this, Mum". He doesn't realise how much better he is, having felt like a beginner with his BASS mates. |
I agree with your point too. I would say though that if a recreational skier is comfortable with pushing her boundaries by 2% at a time rather than by 5% or 10%, then I'm not sure that attempting more anxiety-inducing feats is necessarily a good thing for development.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| fatbob wrote: |
laundryman, I think we're in violent agreement.
I think there is a certain element around being an adult learner rather than first learning as a child. Kids certainly don't have a fear of falling or getting hurt as they spend their developmental years experimenting and (mildly) failing. It's probably the holy grail for instructors to get a bit of regression going in their students. |
Yes, I think so.
I had an instructor a few years back who was into neuro-linguisting programming. He got us to intone the word 'playful' on steep powder pitches. I think it actually worked to produce a more relaxed me. I still do this sometimes!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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laundryman, I like powder bouncing or "walking" swing your poles forward down the slope and turn wherever they land. Also helps you feel out where the snow gets funky a split second before you hit it (credit to an old Wozzer Smith video for that).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Megamum wrote: |
| finestgreen, that is exactly the side of things that I wonder about. Will my metaphorical lack of 'balls' mean that I'll never ski as well as my friend here, or can I compensate by the development of good technique (or at least doing my best to develop it). |
Is your ambition to ski steep terrain? If it is, you will need to develop a psychological comfort level to match the terrain, as well as the necessary skills. |
I'm not sure I agree with that as a general statement. Throughout my skiing development, I've noted from time to time that I didn't blink at something where a few years back I'd have been breathing hard, girding my loins and generally psyching myself up. I don't think I've become any braver over the years. |
I don't think we're disagreeing - I frequently say to people that I'm teaching that confidence and control grow hand in hand. You're right to say that it's rare for someone to suddenly grow a pair overnight, metaphorically speaking of course, so I think you're typical in gradually becoming accustomed to more challenging conditions until you one day realise that you're comfortable on all slopes that you are might find yourself on. But that's not to say that the "confidence:control ratio" is a fixed proportion in every skier. Obviously some people are naturally more adventurous than others, some people have more capacity to manage their technique when the going gets tough. Maybe I didn't explain it well (I wrote it on my phone at the end of a long day in the middle of my favourite train terminal ), but it seems self-evident that you need to have sufficient confidence when skiing challenging terrain that you can use your skills to control your speed and line. If you are so scared that you can't ski as well as you normally do then you will have problems, and probably won't enjoy it. Conversely, "no skills/no fear" isn't going to serve you well. I think it's great that FC was taken down that route (which I think was the Canadien route, and the easiest way down) - although he didn't ski it well, as he said himself, he skied it safely and with enjoyment. It will have helped his confidence and given him an idea of the skiing that he might like to aspire to.
IMO the best way to develop a capacity to ski steeps is to develop your technical skills on non-challenging terrain (we run a day on skills for steep terrain on an indoor slope!) and then develop your tactical approach and increase your comfort zone by skiing increasingly steep terrain (whether guided or not).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| I want to achieve the point where I can ski any of the pisted mountain in any degree of snowfall |
I think that's a very sensible ambition: to be able to ski everything on the piste map.
| Megamum wrote: |
| I know I am not there yet, but I don't know if it is a lack of skills or a lack of balls that is stopping me at the moment. |
I think it would be better if you didn't see those factors as two separate things. Confidence and control grow hand in hand. You are now confident to ski slopes well (rather then just "getting down") that a couple of years ago you wouldn't have been happy on. What's that if not an increase in confidence...?
| Megamum wrote: |
| In that respect my friend here completely out skis me with far less time on the snow than I've had. I have to say that I am envious of his metaphorical balls - though I am sure I don't want the real things!!! As I think they are what allowing him to ski what he is doing and are possibly more responsible at this moment in time than the overall skills that he has - by his own admission these are still developing. Mind you he has certainly given me an impetus to want to do as well (a bit of healthy competition if you like), but I am hoping that I can play catch-up by sorting out my skills even if my metaphorical balls aren't as big. |
Everyone is different, so I'm not sure that comparing yourself to someone else is terribly productive, especially in regard of something as intangible as the "size of his balls".
(And that's the last time I'm going to use that metaphor, not least because IMO bravery and confidence are two different things. I'm happy on terrain that most skiers wouldn't be able to ski, but I am not, in any way, brave. I am not a ballsy skier. But I am confident that I have the ability to enjoy reasonably steep terrain.)
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franzClammer, thanks, I get a better impression of it from that than from some of the earlier videos. Could see some instruction going on there. Did you find you learnt much or would you say it was more of an experience?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
And that's the last time I'm going to use that metaphor, not least because IMO bravery and confidence are two different things. I'm happy on terrain that most skiers wouldn't be able to ski, but I am not, in any way, brave. I am not a ballsy skier. But I am confident that I have the ability to enjoy reasonably steep terrain
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I think that's a very useful distinction.
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Late Reply I know, my thoughts on fear, Balls, There are Three groups of people,
Those who understand fear, Respect it, uses it to keep them alive and yet able to stretch there comfort zones,
Those who recognise fear its control its restraints, it keeps them from stretching themselves, scared to try, stays in a comfort zone.
and those who do not understand the risk therefore have no fear, children and Iddiots 
overcoming fear is an individual thing, as we have a different prospective of what we class as fearful, the key is as long as you respect fear but do not let it dictate to you, your on the right path to succeeding and over coming your fears, simples
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FAQ
After watching it, I have a few questions, was there any instruction given? At times it really looked like a follow me, and at one point you seemed to be leading the way, picking your way through and no sign of the leader in front. Also at times the group looked huge, how many were there? I tell you I have never been more pleased to see a flat track with kids and dogs playing on it and I wasn't even there 
