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4 year old ski lesson question

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I'm after advice. I'm going to Les Arcs 2000 with Esprit Ski in January.

My lad will be 4 /1/2 (5 in July) and I have booked him into Esprit Sprite Beginners for 5-9 year olds. This is for beginners and is 2.5 hours from 9am ish. I think they use ESF. I know kids are all different but is 6 months a big deal.

He will have been to Hemel Hempstead twice.

Esprit do have a spritlets class for 3-4 year olds but this is an afternoon class so not great for me and my wife.

Esprit warned me when I booked that if he can't keep up we'll have to take him out and it will be too late to put him in another class as they'll likely be full.

So, do I.

1. keep him inn the 5-9 class and hope he's ok. Or
2. Change to the 3-4 class.

Any ideas or experience out there?

Mally
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
mally, you need to know the child. I have one grandchild who was a cautious and apprehensive learner at 6. Had private lessons (cheap, where we stay). She got on fine, but only after a very gentle start. She would have sunk without trace with a bunch of more gung-ho kids. But other kids sail in, all guns blazing, at 4.5.

Why not do an introductory lesson or two at a fridge? If all goes well, the older class should be OK and he'll have a bit of a headstart which will give him confidence. If you're still in doubt, go for the little ones class. If this is his first go at skiing, his feelings about it all will colour your family holidays for years to come.

Is your lad a skateboarder? I always feel that's a good guide to their motor skills and courage! Scooting is not such a good indicator, unless he does tricks on a half pipe. wink
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
My daughter was too young at 4, but then she was only just 4 and they were proper lessons. The next time (nearly 5 now) she had a great time in the little ones snow park thing with the magic carpets and all the play things etc. Those were all day Austrian lessons with lunch as well.
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Hi mally, I've had some experience of Esprit / ESF with both of my boys..... It's my understanding that Spritelets is not a specific ski lesson program, more 'an introduction to skiing and snow in general'..... If you want your boy to go to ski school proper ( sounds like you want him to if you have taken him to Hemel twice ) then I would go for option 1. As you say, if this doesn't work out, then there is always the option to change after a day or two. I suspect that it might be harder to go the other way if Spritelets isn't enough for him........The caveat here is that he is an "up 'n' at 'em" kind of kid who is eager to get on and ski.

Let me know if you need any more info. The boys have have done 7 trips with Esprit between them snowHead
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meant to say, one of those trips was to Les Arcs 2000 - so i might be of further use to you wink
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pam w, +1

My daughter did Spritelets at 4yrs 4months she was very happy in that group as we went the first week of the season there was only 3 of them in the spritlets group. However I know she is a very cautious nervous girl and softly softly with lot of encouragement is perfect for her. Howevere her 3yr old sister who will be joining spritelets in April has no fear throws herself at anything, if we are able to go again in 2014, I may be considering doing the same as you when she will be 4yrs 7months - also my three yr old is phsyically as tall as the 4yr olds in nursery.

However i have noticed at 4 - 5 yes 6 months can make a big difference. Remember 6months is 1/9th of a 4.5yr olds life!
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Quote:

The next time (nearly 5 now) she had a great time in the little ones snow park thing with the magic carpets and all the play things etc.

5 - 9 with ESF won't be like that though, will it, it'll be tougher; no snow garden, straight out on the slope, and nobody picking them up when they fall over and wiping their noses! Can you wait to make up your mind till after the Hemel experiences?
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pam w wrote:
Quote:

The next time (nearly 5 now) she had a great time in the little ones snow park thing with the magic carpets and all the play things etc.

5 - 9 with ESF won't be like that though, will it, it'll be tougher; no snow garden, straight out on the slope, and nobody picking them up when they fall over and wiping their noses!


Sorry pam w that's just not the case. Based on my experience of Esprit, they employ 'snow rangers' to join the ESF classes to do exactly that.
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Hey, that last post number was the year of my birth ........ snowHead
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Thanks to all,

Timberwolf, I'm staying in Chalet Fitzroy in Les Arcs 2000. I think Esprit did mention snow rangers. My concern is that if he can't keep up with normal lessons the spritlets may not have room for him. If the spritlets were in the morning I'd go for that. He's not cautious and throws himself into most things but I don't want to taint the experience for him. I'd even thought about roller blades or skates to get used to balancing and rolling,sliding. We're off to Hemel in November, he's having a lesson so I'll ask the instructor for advice also.
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mally, Aaah OK, we were in Aravis, which is exactly the same Chalet layout in the same building. Pretty good accommodation IMHO. Don't forget your swimmers, as the pool is a great way to break up the skiing....... as no matter what he does, your lad will get very tired. One factor that has just occurred to me is that it could be pretty cold up there in January. This might be a factor in your decision ? My opinion, FWIW, based on what you have said so far, is to go for the lessons. You say he's quite adventurous, plus you're going to Hemel for a lesson before you go. He probably won't get much out of Spritelets as it is just a snow taster 'experience' rather than a ski 'experience' and he will not be impressed if he is the eldest in a group of toddlers, rather than the youngest of group of skiers wink Children in lessons are grouped according to age/ability anyway so it's not likely he'll be skiing with nine year olds ( unless they're complete beginners )

I'm sure you have already, but read carefully what Esprit's website says ............

Spritelets

This class is for 3 & 4 year-olds and is orientated towards fun and play, whilst introducing the youngsters to wearing ski boots and skis. During Spritelets classes, one of our Snow Rangers stays with the group to help the ski instructor with the youngsters’ non-skiing needs (noses, clothing, cuddles!).

We run most of our Spritelet classes in the afternoons, as it is generally warmer in the afternoons than first thing in the morning, the children (and parents!) will be less rushed after breakfast and can slowly prepare themselves for their skiing, the nursery slopes will be less crowded and the morning Snow Club will be dedicated to the younger age group.

Please note that in order to join Spritelets, children must be permanently out of nappies during the daytime and capable of taking themselves to the toilet because there are no slope-side nappy-changing facilities.

Sprite Beginners

Morning ski classes of 2-21/2 hours tuition are available in all of our resorts, and are for 5-9 yearolds who are complete beginners or who cannot yet do basic snowplough turns.

An Esprit Snow Ranger accompanies the Sprite Beginners all week to provide additional support and help with any non-skiing needs.

Beginners will start with a gentle introduction on the resort’s nursery slopes to learn the basics and gain confidence, and will then venture on to start using the ski-lifts. They will normally be confidently skiing blue runs by the end of the week, before receiving their ski medal and certificate to take home with pride!

As I said earlier, if he really isn't getting on with the lessons, I'd wager it's easier to go from lessons to spritelets, than the other way around. Either way, have a great holiday, and in my experience, you're doing the right thing starting them young. It's tough to learn, and it doesn't get any easier the older you get snowHead
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Cheers for that......
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It very much depends on the child; the variance at that age is far more than 6 months. Also remember that between 4 and 5 most children are starting school, and so their ability to take part in a group activity develops very quickly. This for me, as an instructor, is the key thing: can he listen to instructions and have a go at following them? For some 4 year olds this isn't a problem, for others they just don't get it.

I would make sure you choose the group where your son will have the most fun, as if he's having fun the chances are he's learning something and you'll find it easier to enjoy yourself too. If neither of the Espirit options suit you there are plenty of other ski schools to consider.

If you want him to go into the 5-9 group I'd make sure you give him a head start and get some lessons in the UK before you go.
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Thanks, he'll be having a lesson in November (private) and that will be his second lesson.
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I think motivation is a big issue here. Most kids of that age have not autonomously expressed a wish to learn to ski, they are simply going on a skiing holiday because their parents ski/board and naturally they want the kids to do it too.

However if a child has seen their parents skiing/boarding and was actively interested in trying it out this makes an enormous difference when it comes to teaching them how to ski. They will try harder for longer and will not try to give up at the first excuse.

Really young kids you can get a true reflection of what they want to do as they are very 'self-centred' ('the world revolves round me' - this is a normal element of the development of a personality and a stage everyone goes through) so you often get the truth by just asking the question, beyond a certain age (which varies, but around 7-9) they become aware of peer pressure and may offer an answer that they think will please the person asking the question. So it becomes more difficult to judge their level of motivation or where it stems from. Do they want to do it, please their mum/dad etc.

As regards your own child only you know what they are like. If you have been getting them to be active from the get-go and let them try out risky things without protecting them too much then that will help them pick it up. If they are 'couch potatoes' then the opposite will happen. I've taught kids at both ends of the spectrum and it makes a massive difference to their capabilities. One lad of 5 who I taught managed a whole day lesson and wanted to carry on when we finished (a couple of years later it was reported on the local news that he had become the youngest person to top out all of the scottish munros ever! So very active).

On the other side of the coin I've taught flabby teens who gave up after a couple of hours because they couldn't cope with physical activity and though they'd try skiing as it seemed easy on a playstation!

I'd do your sessions at a snowdome and see how they are, that should give you the info you need to book the correct lessons. At the end of the day take it at their pace, let them have breaks when they want as at 4.5 they have their whole life ahead of them and plenty of time. Also bear in mind that kids obviously grow quickly, this can causes issues with co-ordination as they are experiencing big growth spurts so things that we see as simple like side-stepping can take a while to learn properly for younger kids.
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Timberwolf wrote:
pam w wrote:
Quote:

The next time (nearly 5 now) she had a great time in the little ones snow park thing with the magic carpets and all the play things etc.

5 - 9 with ESF won't be like that though, will it, it'll be tougher; no snow garden, straight out on the slope, and nobody picking them up when they fall over and wiping their noses!


Sorry pam w that's just not the case. Based on my experience of Esprit, they employ 'snow rangers' to join the ESF classes to do exactly that.


Yeah Esprit send "snow rangers" out with all the kid's lessons. There's a certain ratio of children:adults they keep, I can't remember what it is though. Also they have far fewer kids per instructor than you normally see out on the hill.
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mally,

I think that what skir67 says is very true. They have to either have a lot of fun, or really want to do it to last a full day lesson. Aged 5 I doubt there will be a burning desire to master skiing, but if there are big boys doing it then he might just be spurred on to emulate them. The mixed ages may work to your advantage. I know junior always wants to do what his big boy cousins are up to.

Still, hopefully your instructors will be good and make the learning fun anyway.
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mally, you're right - really plug in to what your instructor at Hemel advises. The difference in capability between children aged 5-9 is huge. Hemel splits 5-6 / 7-10 which is far more appropriate in my opinion.

Personal aptitude and attitude will be your best guide in this instance. I'd also suggest that you do a lot more at Hemel than just a couple of lessons and try to get him in a group session to see how he keeps up with others, before you go away. Seek to get him to strong level 4 in their model for confidence that he'll keep up on holiday..... and enjoy himself snowHead

Wishing you all a fab holiday.
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Quote:

Esprit warned me when I booked that if he can't keep up we'll have to take him out

Bear in mind that that could be a bit ego-bruising.

I remember one session at Hemel, when there was a lot of little kids - it was mayhem in the changing area, with weeping kids and arguing parents. One father stomped off in a huff, like a 6 year old. The wailing of one little pink tot was heartrending.

One big difference I noted with my boys, 2 years different in age, was that although the younger one had far more athletic ability, and was a lot less of a wimp, he couldn't take in verbal instructions, when we all did beginners lessons at a grim dry slope in the Ayshire coalfield (no lift - very good for the legs Shocked ). The 8 year old could listen to the instructor and try to do what he was being told. The little one couldn't, though once in a group of kids, out in Austria, he was fine. The other kids in his group were mostly younger - 4 years old to his 6, as few Austrian 6 year olds are beginners! He was fine even though the group was entirely German speaking, because he could just follow and copy. He loved it and soon became the best skier in the family.
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I think I'm gonna throw caution to the wind and stick with the 5-9 year old classes. I'll still ask the Hemel instructor for an opinion though. He'll be 4.5 in January. He's got more conversation skills than most in his school class and he's one of the youngest. He'd much rather be knocking around with bigger kids so the older element might encourage him. Fingers crossed anyway. I'm also toying with getting one of those straps for stopping his skis crossing.
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mally,
Quote:

He'd much rather be knocking around with bigger kids

I that's true then defo stick him in the 5-9 class. It will probably work wonders for his skiing, especially if he has done a few sessions in a fridge.
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Probably not what you want to hear but after a season of not really getting on with lessons at all, an instructor I know (who also teaches kids - and ex Canadian National team coach!) recommended not putting our son in lessons at all this year, but just going skiing with him myself.
littleh_v1 is 4, very outgoing, super adventurous, and not too shabby on his skis already (would ski anywhere if I let him - we jumped a cornice at the end of the year!), so I don't necessarily think that whether they are outgoing or not is a good measure of how they'll cope in lessons
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Quote:

I don't necessarily think that whether they are outgoing or not is a good measure of how they'll cope in lessons

whether or not they can focus, listen and concentrate is maybe more important. Young boy twins in our family - very sporty, bouncy, were absolutely hopeless in private lessons, at 7. Just mucking about, competing with each other, absolutely not listening. Extremely annoying. Neither would try properly to do a snowplough - just wanted to bomb down.
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The thing is we as instructors, parents or both often apply adult values to what kids do on skis e.g how good is their technique, how is their basic posture etc. Kids below the age where peer pressure becomes important (varies, sometimes 10-11 sometimes younger and becoming increasingly so) do not care what they look like, they are only interested in having fun.

So trying to get them to aspire to adult values for their skiing is tough. You can only do it by the 'back door'. That is to say getting them to do stuff which they find fun and has the bonus from our point of view of teaching them good skills.
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flowa wrote:
I'd also suggest that you do a lot more at Hemel than just a couple of lessons and try to get him in a group session to see how he keeps up with others, before you go away. Seek to get him to strong level 4 in their model for confidence that he'll keep up on holiday..... and enjoy himself snowHead


+1 for this. Been in this same situation and this ^^^^ is your best chance of ensuring he stays in the 5-9 proper classes and doesn't get demoted to the garden. If you really want this to work, put in a bit of time letting him do a kids course at Hemel or wherever first.
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mally, definitely do as much at Hemel as you can. My daughter did 2 hours a day proper ski school in Austria at 3 years old but there is a limit as to what they can do at that age and it was restricted to 3-5 year olds (not a snow garden though). She then had about 6 private half hour lessons at Hemel at 4 years old, followed by 3 hours a day in a Swiss ski school where she was fine skiing with children up to 9 years old. Since then (she's now 5) she does Snow Stars at Hemel every week with children aged up to 9 (they no longer split by age but rather ability for Snow Stars) and loves every minute Very Happy
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I think everyone has more or less covered everything but here's my take on it.

Our eldest turned 4 last November - he spent a total of 5 hours at the CF in Manchester before our 3-week trip to Whistler in March where he joined the 3-4Y Adventure Camp.

His time at the CF was invaluable - he got accustomed to the snow underfoot, the feel of ski boots / skis etc. It was also a very cost effective way for us to establish whether he would enjoy skiing in the long term / before we splashed a fortune out on the Whistler trip. For us and him it worked a treat.

Someone mentioned going for the group lesson option at Hemel - couldn't agree more.

Hope it works for you and him.
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Have been with Esprit twice. First time our younger was just under 4. He was the only Spritelet so had a private instructor and an Esprit helper to himself. Second time, when he was nearly 5, he was in the Sprite group which was large enough to split in half acording to appitude. In truth, there was not a huge difference in what they did v the Spritlet course. This was in Austria -approach may be different in France.

His skiing really blossomed the following year when he had a private instructor (at a sensible Italien price) and a terrific long blue to practice on served by a gondola (Miara run in St Vigilio). Much better than going up and down the same short hill served by a button lift. Partly of the improvment was due to being older too -better listening skills and strength.

Well worth asking Esprit how many kids of what ages are with you for your week -may guide the decision.
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 You know it makes sense.
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On those clips to hold the ski tips together that also prevent them crossing the instructor supplied them for the children when Ellie was with sprirelets when we were in Courcheval
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mally,

echo a lot of the comments here, getting some time on the indoor slopes will get some or all of the basics out of the way. In my experience, unless they are really causing an issue they are unlikely to be moved down a group, its just the TO sensibly covering themselves.

Us skiers and boarders are in my experience generally a little on the "push em" side of things (particularly Dads) and we tend to put them in a group slightly harder than they perhaps on some occasions should be. This can be an issue but as mentioned does depend on the child. In the beginners esprit class they will most likely be going up and down the same slope for the first day or two and its as much about the instructors judging the overall ability of the group so they know where they can go teaching wise.

If your 4 1/2 year hold has grasped the basics, standing up, basic sliding, falling down (which covers the stopping for some of the little ones) then i think you will be fine.

I think its almost as bad to not put them in a group high enough as they may get bored. As an example my eldest daughter (10 at the time) couldnt get into the advanced group as due to numbers they weren't running it. Whilst she wasnt bored she missed out on her Bronze etoile during the week because the instructor couldnt take the whole group on sufficiently difficult runs.

fortunately the esf instructor agreed to take her away for an hour and give her the bronze test, which she passed.
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mally, another tale - make of it what you will. Apologies in advance for the novel-like length.

My son started skiing last winter, having just turned 5. My wife and daughter (7) also were absolute beginners, so we booked family lessons with an instructor. After the first three lessons, my wife and daughter were ready to take a real lift and try a blue run. My son wasn't, and didn't seem interested in further lessons - just in going up and down the baby slope. The instructor (who is a mature person, a father and a PE teacher in the children's primary school - not a 20-something ex-racer) said it was best to let my son "grow at his own pace", and he wasn't advising us to continue with the lessons for him; he simply was too young (not paying enough attention, not enough muscle power or coordination, getting a bit bashful/frustrated because he could not do what his sister could...).

Fortunately the resort has a crèche/minder at the baby area, and my son didn't mind being "left behind" for a few hours (i.e. days of skiing - we only went one day each weekend). He made some friends with other kids, skied a bit and played in the snow a lot. We developed a routine where mum, sister and dad would go up a lift together, dad would come down quickly, check on son, go up again and join mum and sister half way through the descent. Then we'd all go to the baby slope together, take a couple of baby lift runs (carpet or rope) with him or we'd be shown snowmen or whatever else he'd been playing on, and after 10-15 minutes we'd go up again leaving him to play. Everybody happy. My son kept slowly improving his control over the skis, but didn't want to move off the playground and baby area.

About a month into the routine, when mum and sister had just started taking their 2 hour lesson, I came back for my periodic "inspection" to find him crying his head off in the arms of the minder. He'd been trying to ski a small jump (about 18 inches high), he'd fallen and hurt himself (more in his pride than anything else). After drying off the tears, inspecting the jump, skiing it together, agreeing that it was very high etc. I asked him if he wanted to come with me on a real run. Much to my surprise he agreed. We got on and off the chairlift without a problem, went down the first 200 metres or so with him "inside" my snowplough, and then I let him go on his own. He's never looked back since - we went skiing another 5 or 6 times (good snow until late April), he restarted lessons with mum and sister and while he hasn't "caught up" technically yet, he can ski down pretty much any slope keeping control and has started to take parallel turns on gentle, smooth slopes (which with 95 cm skis is almost never, but he's growing too!).

When I asked him if he wants to go skiing again this year the answer was "Yaaayyy!!!"

In all - what do I take out of this that may be relevant for you:

1. Don't force him. Wherever he starts, if he's uncomfortable, let him get out. Even if you feel you have wasted money because he can't have another place, it's a lot better than having him come to dislike the activity because it's been forced.

2. Get him at least a couple of "tester" lessons in Hemel H and trust the instructors' judgment

3. A little time growing up makes a LOT of difference. In three months my son went from "only doing this because I have to, but I'd rather be playing in the snow" to "when do we go skiing again?" Part of it is technical; part was maturing a bit and understanding that some things will happen only if you focus on making them happen. Could he have done it 1, 2 or 3 months earlier? Probably not (and of course each individual varies in their attitude, ability to concentrate and willpower).
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So much good advice here it is incredible.! I don't have a 4 year old anymore (boys are 7 1/3 and 10 tomorrow) but this brings back memories of teaching my youngest to ski in April 09 when he wasn't even 4.

mally, thanks for raising the issue and bringing back fond memories. The key to making it enjoyable for me was to relax and let my son learn at his own pace, which proved to be much faster than I thought. stuarth, has a good point. At a young age they pick things up by watching and doing, not by listening so just skiing down small slopes will be enough. Don't forget to video some of it as it makes for a memory to see how small and how capable they can be!
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Thanks for the postings, we're off to HH for the 2nd time for a private lesson he did well the 1st time, bit of sliding, quite a bit of falling and was keen to go to the top of the teaching slope (in between instructors knees). I will trust the judgement of the instructor. Just seen the a company in Les Arcs 1950 called Spirit that do 2.1/2 hour morning lessons/play for 4-5 year olds and can include lunch supervision. This will be an option if the instructor thinks he's not quite ready for the 5-9 group. My biggest fear is forcing the issue but fingers crossed he'll like it. He spent time walking around the house in his plastic toy skis yesterday and is very excited about going to the 'indoor mountain' as he calls it. I spent quite a bit of time polishing out the scratches in the floor!

Thanks for all your suggestions and help!!

Mally
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Hi
I know I am reviving an old thread, but my question is relevant to it.
We have a 4 year old boy and are looking to go with esprit next February, where he will be 2 weeks before his fifth birthday.
We went with esprit to les gets this year where he had a week of spritelets lessons and did tremendously well (came down a gently blue by the end of the week and got an ESF Garalou badge). We have carried on taking him to the local dry ski slope since the holiday and he is progressing very well and currently doing the snow life badges.
My question is do we put him back in the spritelets as that will fit with his age range, or do we put him in the beginners as that is more likely to fit with his ability but risk the kids being older?
Advice would be appreciated as I am sure others have been in the same boat.
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Our eldest was only just 5 when we went away this year and he was in Sprites (the 3yo was in Spritelets). Your Jnr will do fine, someone is always the smallest and the Espirit ranger will be on hand to help out too.
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@stu330, I'd go with beginners as long as you think he will cope well (emotionally) with being the youngest in a group of bigger kids. Sounds like his skiing will be plenty good enough.
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I have skipped all the way down to the bottom so apologies if I've missed something.

Why not just book directly into ESF for time that suits you. Whatever his age or "level" they will put him in appropriate group
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stu330 wrote:
Hi
I know I am reviving an old thread, but my question is relevant to it.
We have a 4 year old boy and are looking to go with esprit next February, where he will be 2 weeks before his fifth birthday.
We went with esprit to les gets this year where he had a week of spritelets lessons and did tremendously well (came down a gently blue by the end of the week and got an ESF Garalou badge). We have carried on taking him to the local dry ski slope since the holiday and he is progressing very well and currently doing the snow life badges.
My question is do we put him back in the spritelets as that will fit with his age range, or do we put him in the beginners as that is more likely to fit with his ability but risk the kids being older?
Advice would be appreciated as I am sure others have been in the same boat.


Book him into beginners, but have a word with the ranger and head instructor on day 1 and explain that you are happy if they need to move him Up or Down groups after the first day if required. Having said that I think that there is a lot of positives with the Esprit model as if the children are of similar age groups as they tend to bond and play outside of the lessons and this has the possibility of either challenging some children or not sufficiently challenging others.
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@jedster
Thanks, we have been thinking the same thing as my wife made the good point that the 5 year olds in the beginner class will be in the same school year as he is anyway.
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stu330 I would actually look at Sprite Improvers:

Quote:
Esprit Sprite Improvers (6-10 Year Olds)

Improver morning classes (2-2½ hours tuition) are for 6-10 year-olds who can cope easily with all types of ski-lift and execute confident snowplough turns on blue runs. We can accept 5 year-olds only if they have previously attended our Sprite Beginner classes (or equivalent ski-school lessons).


Your son matches the description of skiing ability. It says they will accept 5 year olds (same school year as your son). Even in Sprite Beginners then the kids will be complete beginners and your son is not and will spend two days waiting for the other kids to grasp turning and stopping. I would give that a go. Especially as he is going regularly to the dry slope and working through Snow Life.
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