Poster: A snowHead
|
Someone ducked an obvious thread segue some days ago but I'm afraid I can't resist.
IIRC and IMHO I reckon I carved most of my turns before "carvers" hit the scene. And carved through pretty much the whole of the turn. At least when I made the effort. Sometimes laziness almost certainly got in the way!!
Clearly now modern skis mean carving has been brought to the masses. Or, at least, turn initiation has been. I think my observation is that while your average skier now starts their turn properly, I'm not convinced they're finishing them. The problem has simply changed.
What do you think. Do you carve "properly"? Do you complete your turn every time? If not, why not? (203cm SL skis are not an excuse... )
[Obviously, bumps, powder, extreme steeps, etc. can be excluded from the discussion]
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
David Murdoch,
Naughty,
As I don't spend a lot of time of piste, carving doesn't hold a great deal of interest to me.
My second private lesson was all about carving and I got enough from that to refer back to it again and again.
It was in 1987 and I was on 2m Course GS skis. That was damn hard work and I wouldn't like to boast I even managed good complete carved turns. In fact I'm sure I didn't. I then started to use Superforce 3s off-piste (61mm waist..!!!) but could get them to dig in on-piste. Not exactly a carvers ski tho'.
After that I spent most of the time on the Grand Montets so needed a good all-rounder..Xscreams, again not best for carved turns. I only really bother now when I have slalom skis out and reckon to stay on edge pretty much throughout the turn, otherwise a turn is a turn to me, to be used when and how I want. If I want to look posey I can do ok but I'm more interested in the steeps as that really sorts you out.
The number of times we've been joined by a very good piste skier who has totally lost it to such an extent they have left us by lunchtime makes me chuckle about the nature of your question.
Don't get me wrong I am not saying we are the masters of the hill...not in a million - but there is a world of difference carving reds and other skiing and my emphasis is on the more steep stuff. Once you have skied a bit and know what actually turns a ski then getting them on edge isn't the problem, completing the turn successfuly is more difficult. But I repeat I see very few people carving great turns, in fact you are more likley to see a boarder really laying them down than a skier in my recollection. You tend to notice people when they can do that.
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Honest answer, I'm not sure. Sometimes I look back and see well defined tracks and sometimes it's felt right and I look up and hmmm. Some people are amazing. John Thomas of Vallandry JohnNewGen can do a pure carve at low speeds on the flat barely turning his skis, if his tracks are anything to go by!
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Once you are into a carved turn isn't it easier to complete it than to rotate the ski and skid? I've always thought that initiating a purely carved turn was more difficult than completing it.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sat 17-09-05 18:08; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
Once you are into a carved turn isn't it easier to complete it than to rotate the ski and skid? I've always thought that initiating a purely carved turn was more difficult than completing it. |
I think most people find it easier to start than finish in fact. Modern carving skis should drop into a carve fairly easy, most people bail towards the end of the turn mostly for more instinctive and psychological reasons than technical ones. Look from a chair lift at the people on the slopes and it's very, very rare to see a pure carve turn. Mostly there's no real point though, it's pretty hard to find slopes with the space to carve the whole slope, but, if you can do it then railing down at speed is pretty cool.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sat 17-09-05 20:17; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
I agree with ise - it's easier to start in a carve than finish in one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Why is it difficult to finish a carved turn?
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
slikedges, because a properly carved turn will accelerate your momentum and unless you're prepared to use that and roll to initiate the next downhill turn . . . you will wash-out the tails to reduce speed.
Don't ask me to do it 'cos I's a wuss who, by some accounts, should not be allowed on the hill.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Masque, I agree, but not if you turn uphill a bit, which is what I do if I'm picking up too much speed. As a self-confessed old-style skier, I've always had difficulty with the pure carve initiation. I've climbed back up the hill with a BASI I, to be shown how my tracks show a clean carve thru the whole turn except for a blurring just at the point of initiation. On a difficult slope I've noticed that blurring does indeed translate to a momentary but crucial loss of carved control whilst trying to get back into the groove.
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
David Murdoch,
If I go through the valley we would rather do Envers and the like than the GM. I'm a bit fed up with the crowds so we will normally pass through on our way to Monterosa. Even though the Midi can get silly on a good day, they all go down the classic vallee blanche so I would rather spend a couple of days there as you know the variations you can get. Envers du plan in good snow is my most favourite route it has everything, we even saw a Norwegian telemarker fall off an ice bridge into a crevasse. He was ok, his guide pulled him out. I love the couloirs after the Requiem Hut for example, all that type of stuff really excites me and it teaches you to be prepared and not take liberties. I would like to do more high alpine skiing. I know people will say the this is what Chamonix is all about but we just need a break. I love the stuff Phil Ingle does but as a group we wouldn't be upto it.
As my skiing emphasis is on the above, carving doesn't hold too much interest for me.
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
JT, cool. I am really, really keen to get into more of that kind of stuff. Debating whether my next pair of boots should be the new hybrid tourers. Aha, gear thread coming up...
|
|
|
|
|
|
David Murdoch,
I agree, I would like to do more but although the rest of the group could do the climbing bit some would struggle with the skiing. I would back go to Chamonix tomorrow if someone would prep me for the likes
of the Couloir Cosmiques.
I think I could do it but you never know about the conditions etc. I could easily get talked into it tho'.
What would be on your list?
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
David Murdoch, JT, have either of you bought yourself Anselm Baud's guide to the Chamonix valley? I've spent many happy hours gawping at that - I'm sure you could too
Can I join in on the list too?
Realistic - Armancette Glacier from Domes de Miage
Semi-realistic - Glacier Rond (Cosmiques looks pretty good too...), Mont Blanc by Aiguille Grises
Not- v realistic - Couloir Infernet (Oisans region)
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Arno, David Murdoch,
Since this thread is hijacked I will open up another with the title along the lines of "Skiing wish list"
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
If I am riding down the piste I can just relax and let them run. I am most likely to do this when my legs are shot from the day and I want to get down on the home run. On most other slopes I will probaby ininiate the turn. Whatever it takes, for me.
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Arno, Do you mean the "hundred best descents of the northern alps?" If so, yes I do. The sad thing is that many of the descents are now pistes, especially round the PDS. One fun point is that Anselme's brother is still the lift operator of the Fys chair from Nyon to Pleney. A very pleasant chap, even if he did refer to me as one of "les anciennes" last season. Git! - I'm not THAT old.
JT, wish list? Helis - as in 360 spins. Park - inverted tricks. Off-piste? to be bombproof in everything (I am not at the moment!)
Generally? I would really like to get ISIA qualified but as a major motivation is free lift passes (and an over inflated ego) and I have no interest in teaching probably not the best aspiration. More interestingly, I am interested in getting qualified enough to ski patrol at weekends. I reckon french pisteurs are some of the most awesome skiers.
Furthermore... the better 0.5 and I are planning to relocate to Geneva in the next 12 months meaning that's maybe a more realistic ambition.
Others? Chile. Argentina. Much, much more randoneee. Haute Route. Getting my head round couloirs you have to drop more than 3 feet into. A kit manufacturer who will make shell pants in colours other than black. Lime green and sherbert orange would be much appreciated.
All I can think of right now, except winning a major lottery and being able to ski more than the paltry 60 days I managed last year.
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Arno,
Haven't seen that, I'm stuck on the 'Hors Piste' book which is interesting enough for me.
But thanks for the tip, I'll go and look for it...!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
JT, it's v good. it has all the bigger descents from Hors Piste, but with better pictures and descriptions. it also has loads of crazy stuff which you can just look at in awe
|
|
|
|
|
|
Arno, Interesting, muct acquire for Bro-in-law's Xmas, if not for myself!
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Having spent a lot of time in lessons I think I know what a properly carved turn looks like (in progress, and in the resulting tracks). Not that I can actually pull one off, mind.
But I have noticed that a lot of standard recreational slope users "think" they can carve when they really haven't a clue about how modern skis work, or the finer points of the technique. I've been present when someone in my group announced they were going to "carve" down a nice big wide hard blue piste and proceeded in only crouching down, going fast and skidding most of her turns.
Having carver skis is not automatically going make you "carve" if you don't ready know how to....
slikedges, wouldn't there necessarily be a blurring because of the split-second during the cross over (i.e between changing from one edge or t'other) when the ski is technically flat on the snow? Surely this must cause at least some fractional blurring, even for a very proficent skier.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Er, yes, if the snow's deep enough, even a straight line when the ski is not on edge would show "tracks". But assume you are carving properly, and not intending to have a straight run in between turns. If the surface's nice & hard, technically the ski wouldn't leave tracks during the (albeit remarkably breif) transition phase, because by definition there'd be no edge in contact with the snow. My guess is the idea is that one becomes so proficent at the transition, that the distance of unmarked snow becomes so small as to be almost impossible to identify.
Sorry, am I being pedantic again?
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Manda wrote: |
Surely this must cause at least some fractional blurring, even for a very proficent skier. |
I believe (therefore it will be wrong) that the point is there is no blurring - as you go from one turn to another, there will be a stage where the skis are both flat - but still not skidding - the direction of travel will still be purely in the direction of tip to tail.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 19-09-05 17:38; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Manda,
It is for me, but thats why I 'ducked' this thread
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Sorry, I meant to mean that there would be no "track" at all (c.f. a blurring as such).Doh!
as in
"carve" (tracks in snow)
moment during transition when no edge is in contact (no tracks in snow)
carve (tracks in snow again).
Although if there was enough snow, you technically would see the "track" of the flat ski during the transition.
Am off to think up more pendantry....
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Manda, On the kind of slope one has a lesson on, I've been shown how I've had two nice smooth progressively rounded carving tracks over a couple of turns except at the point of transition when there is a blurring of maybe 50cm (nevertheless with a smooth and continuous arc extrapolated between the 2 disconnected segments). This compared to the instructors tracks which are seemingly uninterrupted. I conclude that a) he's better than me and b) properly executed, an edge change does not generate a big enough disturbance in the snow to leave a track significantly different from a continuous carve. I'm not skidding. The blurring of the track was because my skis weren't pressured as I did a subtle old style initiation, which hopefully I've now overcome.
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
easiski wrote: |
Perhaps I could have a magic measuring machine at the PSB to measure how much of everyone's arc is carved, and what percentage of the time on what percentage of slope they managed this???? Puzzled Puzzled |
Simplest thing in the world.
Trim some touring skins to about 50mm width and glue them on backwards.
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Quote: |
Carving down blacks is just lunacy!
|
Yes, but possible. Depending on snow quality, carved turns can be executed on steeps. Takes a good degree of balance and precision tho. The very idea scares the living cr@p out of me - have only ever seen it done on film.
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
I'd say I carve all the way on nearly all the turns I try to (which is most turns on piste). The challenge is the transition from the end of one turn (when you're going up hill) into the next turn when the process is quite subtle* and beyond 90-odd % of skiers I see. Without getting this right, you skid after releasing the old downhill and before the new downhill is fully engaged.
*progressively realeasing the pressure on the old downhill ski, tipping and allow your CM to fall down the hill.
I'd not claim that I used to carve most turns on old 200cm slalom skis - it was only the new technology that really gave me the confidence to get this technique reliably right. Now I find that I can carve quite steep and narrow pistes (not couloirs!) by angulating hard and pressuring my ski - certainly sections of black runs.
I'd agree that while I don't carve many turns off-piste IN FULL, carving is still and important technique. On fairly hard, steep off-piste I tend to finish a short-turn with a carve and use the pressure that builds up to bounce me into the next turn - not really jumping, just using the energy in the tails. The other time I sort of carve is when I'm taking big GS style arcs through moderately angled crud. I say sort of because lots of the time I'll use a little bump to get my skis unweighted rather than carve all the way round.
J
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
jedster, why are you going uphill?
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
David Murdoch wrote: |
jedster, why are you going uphill? |
To complete the turn/take off speed often means going back uphill when your really hooning it. I think that sweeping back uphill is one of the joys of carving. You have to watch for traffic though
|
|
|
|
|
|
KInda defeats the object tho'.
I think carved turns on a lot of runs would involve way too much speed after a few turns and you would have to scrub it off with a few violent short ones..!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Who knows?
If you'd asked me 10 years ago if I carved I'd have thought that I did most of the time (when conditions were appropriate).
If you'd asked me 5 years ago I'd have realised that I was wrong and that I was only just getting it.
Now I realise that I wasn't quite as good as I thought I was 5 years ago, but I think I'm really getting the hang of it now.
So basically I'm clueless
|
|
|
|
|
|
JT wrote: |
I think carved turns on a lot of runs would involve way too much speed after a few turns ... |
Not if you complete the turn!
If you are increasing your speed as you make a series of turns, then that may well point to you coming out of the turn too early. Complete the turn and maintain the speed.
|
|
|
|
|
|