Poster: A snowHead
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I know it's one that crops up quite often, but do I :
a) Ski school
b) Private lesson
c) Wing it
I have been to ski school for the last 2 years (Pas de la Casa then Livigno) and I still regard myself as pretty much a newbie
I have taken to it quite well, but I was wondering if it is worth my while going to ski school again for another week (Madesimo booked for Feb) or would I get more out of a one day or 1/2 day 1-to-1 or alternativly should I just break the habit and wing it for the week with the rest of group I am heading out with (they are a mixture of advanced and intermediate).
Whilst I got loads out of the Livigno ski school and would have no fear of attempting most reds, last year I was in an intermediates group and felt a bit frustrated at times waiting for the other members of my group to get their back bottoms down the hill and it does take up quite a bit of your week.
How do the costs compare (figures would be nice) and do you get 1-to-2 (i.e. me and my wife), and does it affect the cost?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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would certainly recommend private lessons
we've done 1:2 and 1:3
i'd say 3 or 4 hours of private lessons with a good instructor is far better than a week at ski school
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ditto the above, but maybe mix of the two.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Brian Barrett, if you still get "loads" from ski school then keep with it. But there will come a time when you start to get little or no gain for all those hours. In a perfect world you'd be able to see that time coming and switch to private lessons, 1:1.
A couple of two hour sessions twice a week works wonders, and comes out at a similar price to class lessons but with loads more free ski time.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Brian Barrett, I don't recommend ski school if the groups are more than 8, and preferably no more than 6. No ski teacher can actually teach 12 people at once - instruction is all you'l get and that's not the same thing at all. I should think after 2 weeks of ski school you're ready to take private (or small group) tuition. How more than one person in the lesson affects the cost will depend on the ski school, so get on the website and check it out. Also look for alternative ski schools. They should all be on the tourist office website if they're serious in that area.
DON'T wing it! It's much too early to start razzing around, you'll get dreadful habits which will cost you a fortune and ages to put right later!!!
ps: nothing to gain as I don't work in Madesimo
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Brian Barrett, as easiski says, you're best advised to continue with lots of lessons for a while yet, lest you pick up bad habits which get entrenched then take years to sort out later. While you'd benefit from private lessons they're relatively expensive and you're probably still at the stage where you'd get a lot from ski school. But go to the ski school only if it is good. If it isn't, arrange something else yourself.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 6-09-05 20:30; edited 1 time in total
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easiski wrote: |
DON'T wing it! It's much too early to start razzing around, you'll get dreadful habits which will cost you a fortune and ages to put right later!!! |
Sound advice (he said, speaking as someone who is spending lots of time and effort to put things right after years of too many bad habits )
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Following on from what easiski et al mentioned re: group sizes....
Something to remember: the better your skiing gets, the smaller the class size tends to get (as skiers decide they're "good" enough to stop bothering with ski-school) e.g. when I was around about your standard I enroled in a week-long group class - group size totalled a measely 4. Count em. 4 people. All week. I'd never received so much instruction before.
So, if possible, find out how many other people are ACTUALLy enrolled for your standard. With any luck you might find yourself paying group lesson money for what is essentially a private lesson...
(sorry easiski!)
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Manda,
This may work occasionally more frequently I think you will find 10 people in a class , with half the class either bored waiting for people to catch up or terrified that they are going down something they cannot ski properly.
Brian Barrett,
My only contribution is to suggest that where possible you take several shorter private lessons rather than one longer one as you can practice techniques inbetween and go back and ask questions about things that are not working.
PS whilst winging it may ultimately limit your progress as a skier it has never stopped my enjoyment of a holiday, occasionally poor lessons have detracted from my holiday.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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T Bar, no, it works more often than you'd think. Certainly 10+ pupils is normal in a "never been on skis before", and frequently the case for 2nd weeker classes. But for Brian Barrett's level, chances are there won't be any where near the same demand for lessons.
Granted, if a group class is basically a lesson in how to waste your time, then definately see about converting your money paid into a private lesson.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Manda,
We must have been to different ski schools
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Last four ski schools I've used have made clear what the maximum number is in each class. I wouldn't use a ski school if the max size was more than 8 per class.
I think private v. class depends on what you're looking for in your lessons. Sometimes consolidating your technique under the watchful eye of an instructor is better in a class situation where you get 15 hours of instruction in a week, compared to the 2-4 hours that you might get with a private instructor. On the other hand, if you are trying to learn as much new technique as possible from an instructor who can adapt to your needs than a private lesson or two is probably best.
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You know it makes sense.
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Wing it; spend the cash you save on a longer holiday; enjoy yourself; get some lessons another year - if you can be bothered.
I've never taken lessons in chucking snowballs, but I still have fun doing it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It depends largely on what you want to get out of skiing. If you want to be the best and most stylish, then it is lessons, lessons, lessons. Personally, I would be tempted to not bother with organised lessons out there from day one. Ski with your mates, if you can keep up and do all that they do great, if not have private lessons on the areas where you are weaker.
After the first 3 or 4 years, one thing that I used to do was get some lessons in at a dry slope before I went (mostly as part of a larger group session) and then enjoyed the holiday and practiced what they'd taught me. That way, you get to the slopes with some recent experience under your belt and don't have to worry about being in certain places at certain times when you are away.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Ray Zorro, Naturally I couldn't disagree more. I spend a very considerable amount of time every winter trying to put right several years of disastrous "winging it". Almost all people who do that end up with massive rotation, leaning back, and unable to progress. Don't give these faults a chance. consolidate good basic technique first and then go off on your own. After all, 2 x 2 hours during a week is hardly a major hassle. I'm all for people doing lessons on dry slopes too, but there's lots you can't learn on them because there's no variety, no space and no speed!
ps: don't say it's good for my business to do this - I'd rather people learnt well and enjoyed every moment. You can enjoy learning more, and the more you learn the more you enjoy ski-ing. - honest!
Manda, Group lessons are more profitable! If I have 3 in a group of 4 I break even, if 4 I'm earning more per hour than private lessons!!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm still a little confused
Obvoiusly, 1:1 is going to be better from a learning point of view, but what about costs
Assuming group lessons are 120 euroish for 5 days, how much are the recomended 2x2hrs likely to cost me.
Most of the ski-school sites are down for the summer so I cannot see many costs, but I'm guessing about 40 euro per hour + 10 euro for an extra person is that accurate?
And if it is more, is it really going to be worth the excess in only my third year / week?
On second thoughts, I just did the maths again, and if my assumed costs are accurate, it would actually save me money with a 2:1, would't it?
Do you need to book in advance or just it book there (for either)?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Brian Barrett, as an idea this lot have their site up for next year.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Brian Barrett, at your stage I would go for you and your wife having a private lesson for a morning, either once or twice during the week. The cost is in effect the price of 'hiring' the instructor for the period, so you and your wife will split the costs between you. With regards to actual costs, that obviously varies, but I normally find having a private lesson for just me is roughly the same as having a week with ski school. I think you will benefit greatly from having individual instruction, especially if you and your wife are at a similar level. You can normally just book it there except if you are going at a partuclarly busy time such as half-term, then I'd probably book in advance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Lots of people I have spoken to used to do group lessons but feel they have progressed beyond getting much benefit from more group lessons. Many of then still take the occasional private lesson and generally they report back that they learnt an awful lot, so their private lesson was worthwhile. I do not recall any particular ski school or teacher getting special praise, or the opposite! This suggests to me that all of their teachers were good teachers.
One lady beginner I know hated group lessons and was on the point of giving up skiing. She was persuaded to have a private lesson on day 4, she found that so useful that she returned to group lessons and enjoyed them.
Private lessons give the client the chance to tell the teacher what aspect of skiing they want to concentrate upon and how they want to be taught. Some like lots of demonstrations, some like exercises, some like explanations of technique, some want many miles under their skis.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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My own very experienced friends in Les Carroz continue to have private lessons every now and again just to correct bad habits and brush up on skills. Having learned as much as I have in private lessons, I would be dubious that ski school could be any better than private lessons although I may yet be proved wrong. With one to one or one to two private tuition, the lesson can presumably be more easily adapted to suit the needs of the pupils.
Cost wise it will probably work out dearer to get private lessons but on the other hand, as private lessons are usually more intensive, it would probably be the case that you would need less of them.
It all seems to indicate that private lessons are always the better option. Are there any instances when ski school is the better option (apart from simply being cheaper)?
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Quote: |
Are there any instances when ski school is the better option
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Yes. In Tignes last (early) December we met a group, one of whom was a complete beginner. Now there were, at that time, no group lessons for absolute beginners - apparently she was the only one in the resort! (Her friends had been to all the ski schools and tourist info and asked.) She therefore had to have private lessons and hated them. She felt she was the only person in the resort who was totally rubbish, whereas if she had been with 10 other newbies she would have had a laugh and realised everybody is rubbish on their first week! After the first 2 days, she wouldn't ski at all.
So, I think sometimes group lessons can be better.
(Off topic - Tignes in early December is full of really good skiers. I usually feel "intermediate" after Christmas but that week I felt useless! If you want to feel good about your skiing - don't go early )
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snowshine wrote: |
Are there any instances when ski school is the better option (apart from simply being cheaper)? |
I think there are instances when 15 hours of good quality classes might be better than 2 hours of private. For example, when you don't need 'breakthrough' teaching of new techniques, but need lots of feedback from a qualified eye to ensure you consolidate your learning. Last instruction I had was in a class of 6. I knew the theory of what I was trying to achieve, I just needed to try to put it into action while I was being observed to make sure that everything was happening as it should. On the spot feedback, videoing and then more feedback in the evening for 5x3 hour sessions in a class was a better way to achieve this than 1x2 hour session by myself. It meant that I could see my performance in a range of snow conditions, on a range of slopes and at a range of speeds. The fact that the instructor needed to divide his attention between six people wasn't a major factor as far as I was concerned.
Last edited by After all it is free on Thu 8-09-05 14:11; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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maggi wrote: |
(Off topic - Tignes in early December is full of really good skiers. I usually feel "intermediate" after Christmas but that week I felt useless! If you want to feel good about your skiing - don't go early ) |
I know that feeling!! You shopuld try Tignes in early November if you want to feel truly inadequate. Lots of junior and full national teams around. I've never felt so intimidated riding a cable car, with people carrying true DH skis (and able to use them properly). The resort has a completely different atmosphere to the season regular!
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The Term "group" lessons can be misleading, depending on the ski school. ESF, Austrian Ski school etc. have classes normally up to 12 people - this is pretty pointless, even if you are complete beginner as individual correction just doesn't happen. Private lessons are much better, but small groups can be just as good. The main thing is to allow consolidation time in between lessons. I recommend 2-3 private lessons of about 1.5 hours with a day in between each one.
My site is up with 2006 prices BTW, and always has been, but I don't work in Madesimo!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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In descending order of most rapid improvement
1. private lessons at say 2:1
2. skiing with people who have pretty good technique, know why they do what they do and can explain it (not trained instructors)
3. reading books and watching videos and practicing (if you have a reasonable feel for mechanics and are fairly aware of how you are moving
4. ski-school
actually a combination of 1, 2 and 3 is pretty perfect.
disclaimer:
I had two weeks of ski-school and have had 4 private lessons. I've been lucky enough to do a lot of 2 (during a full season) and enjoy 3. I also just work pretty hard at my technique (seldom not working on something). The private lessons tend to inspire me and leave me with a set of new things to work on. THe real improvement comes in the days of practice that folllow.
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i'd say 3 or 4 hours of private lessons with a good instructor is far better than a week at ski school
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I totally agree, provided you work at it afterwards.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar.org.uk, very good point!
How do you feel about feedback by observation of other students?
One of the tests of athleticism, I think, is the close awareness of one's own body. A match of mental body-image to the actual performance, and use of sensation and feedback to modify that body image.
Trouble is, I'm not really all that sure of how close I get. It isn't that I think the ski instructor is being patronising by finding _something_ to give me positive feedback on (there is some of that, yes. Some of it unfounded suspicion I'm sure). More of, as nolo put it, a Johari's Window between what we observe and what others see (but don't tell us).
I find that that window gets narrower with other students present.
Yes, a competitive comparison element enters into that, but there is also being witness to someone actually learning something, as well as the plain fact of more feedback from more people.
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comprex wrote: |
rob@rar.org.uk, very good point!
How do you feel about feedback by observation of other students?
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I think it's a positive thing, once you get past the competitive fears of "not being good enough" (or "am I too good for the group" if you're conceited about your ski ability ). Seeing other people trying to make the changes that you are perhaps struggling with might well help with addressing the mis-match of performance and body-image.
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