 Poster: A snowHead
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Snowy,
OK, I understand your point.
I normally undo the top buckles of my boots when teaching beginners so I can get a visible flex at low speed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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beanie1, I suppose my feeling is that turning using just (or as near as possible to just) rotation isn't something that one ultimately aspires to. So getting people using the edges early seems like a good idea.
That said, I'm just an interested amateur and you and ski have clearly got a lot more experience of what works and what people can get wrong when using the various techniques.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Arno,
I don't have that much experience! Only a part time teacher, unfortunately...
I think you're right about using just rotation - but as Ski said edge control and pressure are pretty difficult concepts to teach to a beginner.
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Arno, beanie1, Rotation of the leg (in the hip socket) = good = steering. Rotation of shoulders = less good. Don't forget our clients need to be able to skid ! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ski, totally agree about the need to be able to skid - just questioning whether edge should come before rotation or rotation before edge
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Arno, Rotation first works the best for me - it's too easy for beginners to jam their knees together if you ask them to edge, it also gets them used to controlling the ski by moving it. The important things to feel, IMHO, are the ski running flat, and the ski gripping (just) on an edge - and being able to control that grip by pressing, absorbing, rotating, tilting, flattening etc.
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ski,
Absolutely.
Nowadays though "rotation" and "skid" seem to have become evil words to some people"!
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Well now, the discussion has become a lot clearer. There's been a clear misunderstanding of the term snowplough, which has now been resolved.  To join in the rotation or edging discussion. I don't like to teach skidding (and this introduces rotation) in any way shape or form at the beginning, as all beginners skid enough anyway. My focus is always on teaching the beginner to use the ski and ski technology right from the start. This does not, however, mean that I'm 100% in the "carving only" camp, as there is a place for edging or not as appropriate. I did take this up with BASI on my last revalidation, and had support from Ali Ross, but we were unable to change the trainer's mind!!!  There are always more than one way to skin the cat, and it seems to me that whatever works for any particular teacher is probably OK so long as we don't go back into the world of flat skis and skidded turns that we had in the early 80s or the lifting of the inside ski that we had even earlier than this.
I find that once people are turning on easy slopes then learning to edge the ski or flatten in can be done in traverse, and this helps all round. Also with side slipping. The collapsing of the knee inwards is relatively easy to stop if you have people from the beginning, and I've never had a problem with people getting stuck in snowplough for ever. This is something I find more when taking people over who've done a week or two, and not understood (probably never explained) that the snowplough turn is a phase you go through en route to being a skier. These students are normally nervous, and frightened of the fall line, and I find it's often because they've been rushed thrugh the first couple of days, and not had sufficient consolidation time before moving on. They also tend to lean back and rotate their bodies in the turn.  OK generalisation, but that's my experience.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski,
My experience with BASI was that there is much debate amongst trainers on this. During my trainee instructor course the trainer (who shall remain nameless!) got us all doing very carvy snowploughs. A week or so before my instructor course a BASI 2 who was doing some training with us said no no no all wrong trainer Y will want to see nice skiddy snowploughs. Sure enough this was what trainer Y wanted. Anyway, we all demonstrated our ability to be versatile, and it's always useful to explore different methods as an instructor - I'm sure as I become more experienced I'll find what works best for me!
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So, back to the hips at the start of this thread, I had my first ski experience at Knock Hatch yesterday and felt like my hip bones were trying to pop out of their sockets - my pizza was not far off as fast as my chips!
I’m going again on Friday, so will take on the advice of hips over balls of feet, less sitting posture and less bending of the knees. Also starting a lot of 90/90 stretching. Any other tips for hips? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Clicked on the us and started reading with my morning coffee, not really paying attention to the dates. @BoldSeagull, do you realise yours is the first post on this thread for 19 years! How on earth did you find it? Lol
Anyway I’m a big fan of the snowplough as a teaching tool, so thanks for the read! Back when I did my BASI 1 it was the only element I have any trouble with, having never learnt it properly. I really struggled to get it right. But that was a great foundation and learning experience that I continue to draw on.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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@under a new name, I thought the post by @BoldSeagull was both sensible and comprehensible! They probably found one of the more comprehensive discussions of snowploughing!!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@BoldSeagull, good for you! And thanks again for the reread.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@BoldSeagull, unless you intend to become an instructor, your skiing will soon progress beyond snowplough and it'll be reserved for occasional use approaching lift queues.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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All good. I’ve just watched a video back, I go very knock knee’d in the plough, lack of flexibility in my hips appears to mean my knees are trying to do the plough while hips and thighs aren’t joining in. Think I need to keep my legs straighter and hips more forward as an early post suggests.
I’m going to KH again on Friday so will be something to work on.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| adithorp wrote: |
| @BoldSeagull, unless you intend to become an instructor, your skiing will soon progress beyond snowplough and it'll be reserved for occasional use approaching lift queues. |
Thank you, so no panic really, but I am starting some exercises. It was my first ever ski, so expecting all the joints to comply straight off is probably ambitious.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@BoldSeagull, Are you having lessons? Your instructor will be a source of valuable feedback. But, a bit like getting on a fat pony if you haven'r ridden for a while, your joints will want to voice their concerns....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| adithorp wrote: |
| @BoldSeagull, unless you intend to become an instructor, your skiing will soon progress beyond snowplough and it'll be reserved for occasional use approaching lift queues. |
That's an attitude shared by many, but there are lots of situations where the ability to snowplough effectively is a very useful tool, even at the most advanced levels.
I recall watching the Wengen Men's Downhill on the Lauberhorn a couple of years back and noting that more than one of the top skiers used a snowplough to check their speed just before the kink at the emd of the fast flat section next to the railway; others did a quick left-right shimmy, but one could see that a bit of a plough was a less dynamic movement and seemed equally effective, if not more so.
It's also incredibly useful on breakable crust to help get the outside ski moving sideways across the snow to build up a slight platform to resist you without forcing your weight downward through the crust, before bringing the other ski round in classic stem turn stylee, or indeed for use on the first cautious turn at the top of a steep narrow gully.
If you can't snowplough you're missing a very important tool from your toolbox.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I had a recent lesson with ski zenit, where improving short radius turns by starting each turn with weight fully on the outside ski in a snowplough position was the basis of the drill, very very hard to do and also super beneficial for my skiing.... its a fundamental skill if done correctly, most people don't understand what a proper snowplough is... you should be shifting weight as you do it., not just putting legs in a snowplough position
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@Chaletbeauroc, I agree it's a useful tool in many different circumstances.
Having practiced the pre-KernenS plough I'm not sure its more use to us mortals than a traditional speed check; it is high jeopardy fun though.
A wedgie/stem first turn off piste, hardly needs days of perfecting linked snow plough turns to be able to deploy when needed.
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| coddlesangers wrote: |
| I had a recent lesson with ski zenit, where improving short radius turns by starting each turn with weight fully on the outside ski in a snowplough position was the basis of the drill, very very hard to do and also super beneficial for my skiing.... its a fundamental skill if done correctly, most people don't understand what a proper snowplough is... you should be shifting weight as you do it., not just putting legs in a snowplough position |
I run a “Building Blocks” clinic which does just that: uses a variety of ways of performing accurate snowplough turns to improve performance at higher levels of skiing. It’s a terrific way to focus on the fundamental skills. The snowplough is the foundation of parallel skiing, if performed correctly. You don’t have to learn to snowplough and then forget that technique when you start to do “proper skiing”. You simply build on that foundation.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| adithorp wrote: |
| @BoldSeagull, unless you intend to become an instructor, your skiing will soon progress beyond snowplough and it'll be reserved for occasional use approaching lift queues. |
That's an attitude shared by many, but there are lots of situations where the ability to snowplough effectively is a very useful tool, even at the most advanced levels.
I recall watching the Wengen Men's Downhill on the Lauberhorn a couple of years back and noting that more than one of the top skiers used a snowplough to check their speed just before the kink at the emd of the fast flat section next to the railway; others did a quick left-right shimmy, but one could see that a bit of a plough was a less dynamic movement and seemed equally effective, if not more so.
It's also incredibly useful on breakable crust to help get the outside ski moving sideways across the snow to build up a slight platform to resist you without forcing your weight downward through the crust, before bringing the other ski round in classic stem turn stylee, or indeed for use on the first cautious turn at the top of a steep narrow gully.
If you can't snowplough you're missing a very important tool from your toolbox. |
Couldn’t agree more. It’s far more than just a learning technique.
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| ski wrote: |
| @BoldSeagull, Are you having lessons? Your instructor will be a source of valuable feedback. But, a bit like getting on a fat pony if you haven'r ridden for a while, your joints will want to voice their concerns.... |
Went for a second session last night, much better for me and a case of not tensing and relaxing everything. If anyone has done yin yoga, it was like that for me, I had to mentally try to let all the tension go, once that happened I was able to progress.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@BoldSeagull, Well done! Carrying too much tension does cause all sorts of issues, I hope you continue to enjoy the journey
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| coddlesangers wrote: |
| I had a recent lesson with ski zenit, where improving short radius turns by starting each turn with weight fully on the outside ski in a snowplough position was the basis of the drill, very very hard to do and also super beneficial for my skiing.... its a fundamental skill if done correctly, most people don't understand what a proper snowplough is... you should be shifting weight as you do it., not just putting legs in a snowplough position |
I run a “Building Blocks” clinic which does just that: uses a variety of ways of performing accurate snowplough turns to improve performance at higher levels of skiing. It’s a terrific way to focus on the fundamental skills. The snowplough is the foundation of parallel skiing, if performed correctly. You don’t have to learn to snowplough and then forget that technique when you start to do “proper skiing”. You simply build on that foundation. |
And that's before we get into the utility of stem turns.
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| Kramer wrote: |
And that's before we get into the utility of stem turns. |
Ahem.
| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
...
It's also incredibly useful on breakable crust to help get the outside ski moving sideways across the snow to build up a slight platform to resist you without forcing your weight downward through the crust, before bringing the other ski round in classic stem turn stylee, or indeed for use on the first cautious turn at the top of a steep narrow gully. |
But yeah, there are other situations where it is useful, even invaluable.
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You know it makes sense.
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Back when I used to ski off piste regularly the first thing the guide often wanted to see was what everyone’s stem turns were like.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think the key to slowplowing is to keep your legs straight, and to feel the kinetic-energy of the most uphill-ski build up to the right-degree to set the edge and turn.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@GinaMae, hmmm, I don't think you ever want your legs straight?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@under a new name, And not just for snowploughing. A straight leg while skiing in almost any situation means that you've got no more ability to adjust and control that ski, a locked knee means you can't absorb even the slightest compression.
@GinaMae, I'd love to watch.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Chaletbeauroc, and you massively increase ACL injury risk
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Like any varient-technique, the straight-leg snowplow is something you do when it fits the circumstances. You don't do it on bumps, or where there is room to make turns. At the bottom of the hill, shedding speed while making a last-turn into the lift line, and on narrow connecting-trails that are a bit too steep to glide through, but a bit too narrow to make safe-turns.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@GinaMae, but you don't mean an actually straight leg do you 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Yes. It feels to me like there is less pressure on the knee that way, because the line of vector-force misses the knee to the outside, because the toes are pointing in. I repeat, I almost never actually snowplow, but when the circumstances call for it to be briefly used mostly for braking, I find it works better with straight-legs.
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@GinaMae, that’s very interesting. I don’t think I ever have straight legs but I do see your point. I’m not in the mountains for the mo but I will have a look at myself when I am. I anyway ‘plough quite often e.g. as mentioned on approach to lift queue.
Also c.f. Racing snowploughs, racing sideslips
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FAQ
When knowledge has already been imparted, why start a new thread. I think advance search “hips snowplough” threw this one up. 
