 Poster: A snowHead
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easiski, mmm quite. I'm sure you've heard about the person in my group last year who fell at the top of the only black in Crest Voland, and slid off the side of the piste, down a hill, and into a stand of trees. And the girl who slid all the way down the race piste on her ass.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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mark_s, getting back up on your feet, side stepping up the hill to fetch your ski(s), and being able to put it (them) on again without sliding back down is even more so 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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maggi, isn't that what instructors are for?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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mark_s, Maybe on a school trip. Usually they just light up a fag, roll their eyes and call someone on their mobile to pass the time whilst they're waiting
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, especially if the mode of falling involves sitting down backwards. A rather ineffective way of stopping until you hit the inevitable obstacle...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I remember someone trying to put their ski back on facing down the fall line too, once 
(Needless to say, they didn't have the time to put the 2nd one on too...)
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easiski, Why is the snow plow the base of every other turn to come? I think it has nothing to do with a good turn. For a start, a now plow sets both skis on their inside edges. WRONG. When is this a good movement pattern to have when skiing?
It teaches the way to turn is to pressure the outside ski first. WRONG.
How about forgeting about snow plows for a minute. Think about releasing the downhill ski first, something i have yet to see mentioned in 2 weeks or so of reading this forum.
If people continue to use snowplow movements in their skiing, all they end up doing is refining a wedge entry to a parallel turn.
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bejes, you are slightly right in fact the progrssion is (from memory) snowplough, stem, stem christie, parallel, however the question was should snowplough techniques still be taught, in general the conclusion from the experienced skiers is yes.
P.S Welcome to snowHeads
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| bejes wrote: |
...It teaches the way to turn is to pressure the outside ski first. WRONG.
... Think about releasing the downhill ski first, something i have yet to see mentioned in 2 weeks or so of reading this forum.
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which has the effect of pressuring the uphill/outside ski at the same time.... or am I missing something?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Right - I will attempt to explain: A gliding/braking plough in a straight line uses to pressure weight on both skis. Turns do not.
First turns,: From a traverse, if you plough with both feet the skis turn automatically into the fall line, you then turn your chin to your left/right shoulder which shifts the weight slightly to the outside ski - you go round. This teaches the beginner that the ski turns on it's own, and they do not have to "help" it. From here you then add a weight shift to the outside ski, then add forward pressure against the tongue of the boot on the outside ski and the turn improves again. At this point the student is beginning to put most of their weight on the outside ski. If there is no weight on the inside ski it's position is irrelevant. Some people have problems committing to the outside ski. While they don't they will never become parallel. However, when learning like this the student learns to trust the ski right at the beginning, and as their confidence improves and they put more and more weight on the turning ski, the inside ski just drifts parallel on it's own. It's more comfortable for your legs to be next to each other, so when no effort is made to keep them apart they end up in a natural and comfortable position about hip width apart.
The progression into basic swing, etc is not longer necessary - snowplough to parallel is now a ntural evolution.
bejes, How would you go about initiating the turn on the inside ski? Of course as Arno, says, doing what you suggest has the same effect anyway.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski, bejes's response will be to use the "phantom move" (I think that's what HH calls it, it's the way PMTS teaches turning).
As far as I know, it is done by picking up the inside ski and tipping it. Similar to starting a turn by pointing your inside knee into it.
The funny thing, as I see it, is that this is almost identical to how a snowplough turn is made - from the wedge, you flatten the inside ski, so it is NOT on it's inside edge, and keep the outside ski on edge, which makes the turn.
This flattening movement is closely related to taking the inside ski and tipping it, except you are doing it from a braking position to a flat position, rather than from a flat to a tilted position. (if you see what I mean)
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bejes, welcome to  !
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You know it makes sense.
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| Arno wrote: |
| bejes wrote: |
...It teaches the way to turn is to pressure the outside ski first. WRONG.
... Think about releasing the downhill ski first, something i have yet to see mentioned in 2 weeks or so of reading this forum.
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which has the effect of pressuring the uphill/outside ski at the same time.... or am I missing something? |
Exactly what I thought.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Wear The Fox Hat, In order to pick up (or unweight) the inside ski you must have your weight on the outside ski. In other words HH is using two movements and two complicated explanations to describe what is actually one simple movement! Why bother to invent all the complicated names/moves to describe simple things? Marketing is not teaching people to ski.
Releasing the downhill ski puts weight on the uphill ski for the same reason. If you release the downhill ski before weighting the inside edge of the uphill ski you have a "dead" phase in the turn when both skis are flat on the snow (or sideslipping) - result = loss of control. Weight transfer should occur first,.
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski, you should tell that to Harald! He's building disciples based on it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Cheers,
If any thing PMTS simplifies skiing. Breaks down the turn to 3 stages. Release, transfer and engage. The phantom move is one exerise/ part of PMTS.
Terms like steering, rotary, blending pressure and steering arent used.
I have watched total beginners learn PMTS, and they get the concepts very easily as opposed to normal teaching where people learn a different thing from every instuctor. And get taught movement patterns such as the snow plow, only to be told that they have to unlearn that movment pattern. The beauty of PMTS is that beginners use the same movement patterns as expert skiers. The problem i see with most skiers is they don't have a proper release, and I think this is because of the empasis on learning the snow plow, and skiers always trying to get on the Big toe edge of their new outside ski.
Result? Skidded turns and a wedge entry, and unnecessary upper body movements.
Anyone going skiing in December? im off to Ried glacier from the 1st for a few days. Any idea of what to expect?
Good thing to have a PMTS instructor on here now eh!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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So, bejes, what is the PMTS way for a beginner to make a turn?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Depends if they have had lessons previously and are snow plowing or a complete beginner.
Probably use a fan / garland progression and get them learning to flatten their downhillski to turn, rather than emphasising the big toe edge of the uphil ski.
We learnt to split the turn in 2 parts, top of the turn and bottom. Work on each part then combine them.
Top of the turn you work on the release, bottom of the turn work on engagement.(tipping of the inside foot).
I'm no expert teacher sorry, only green level. WTFH, I didn't make it to the last SIC. Perhaps a beer one evening...
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bejes, beer sounds good. Less of the downhill/uphill ski, since that changes during a turn. Which one is on the inside of the turn, which one is on the outside.
Explain it as if I am a complete novice skier.
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Well...I feel like saying my view too!
Snowplough, sideslipping, ski evolutif...whatever you feel confortable with is the most important part, oh by the way also the best way to get to the bottom of the slope safely too! The philosophy of skiing is not to show off on the pistes on how good you are...look mum I can ski backwards now! why? I ask. Some people would do anything to be noticed in the slopes...  ...from wearing outrageous outfit to skiing on one ski backward maybe (honest I have seen one...but he was about to fall though  ). Sking is for enjoying the outdoor, see the beautiful mountains around you and breathe in the fantastic fresh air....and of course share all the above with loved and friends alike. If you can do that by parallel sking the better....but I have nostalgia of those days when I was learning the art of skiing and my teacher shouting "open the F*****ing ski"....I never listened enough I suppose, too eager to show off...but when necessary both snowplough and slideslipping come back to my legs without even thinking...blue, red, black slopes, on or off a lift, in crowed space, when I want to feel in control! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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bejes, do I smell ski system dogma? there is more than one way to skin a cat, my friend 
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bejes, I think you're making the mistake that is often apparent in HHs writings. American methods and European methods are not always the same, and as he constantly insults all other instructors, he does actually accuse us of doing things that haven't been done in Europe for some time (and certainly not in BASI). I think you should read my post again, more carefully, and desist from suggesting that I use words such as "steering, rotary, blending pressure and steering. A lot of this stuff is completely unnecessary. Listen - ski-ing is a really simple thing to do (physically) stand on the edge of one ski and wait for it to go round. Of course there are refinements - but none of it needs to be couched in complex or invented terms like "phantom move" etc. Every ski-ing movement can be described in simple everyday language, and the more the beginner realises that all the movements are simple everyday movements the more confidence they acquire and the less problems they have. Why doesn't PMTS like the big toe? It's simple, people can relate to it, and they pretty much all achieve it - contrary to what you say it puts the ski on the edge right at the beginning of the turn, not flat, not skidded, you just have to ride the edge.
There are 3 basic types of turn (if you want to get into instructor training stuff): EPT (Edge,pressure, turn=result) PET (pressure, edge, turn = result, more common) and TEP (turn, edge, pressure, which is a flat ski rotation of the foot - very old fashioned, but a good skill to have at higher levels). EPT is a carved turn, PET is the normal sort of turn most people will make, and TEP would only be used where space was very limited (bottom part of LG for instance).
At any rate, the average person doesn't need(and probably doesn't want) to know all that. This stuff is for very high level skiers. Most people just want to have fun as alpski, says, and improve a little bit each time. K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple, stupid in case you don't know that one).
This whole thread is about how important it is NOT to forget how to snowplough - forgetting or unlearning something is plainly stupid! More tools in your toolbox = better skier. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If I may despatch my unskinned cat into the pigeons, out of curiousity I had a brief look at the PMTS/Harb Ski systems website and all it did was confuse me. I'm easily confused however.
I do like the idea of explicitly decomposing turns into start and finish/top & bottom/whatever as it seems to me that while carving skis have made it easier for people to learn to initiate the turn, the problem has simply shifted to many people being unable to finish their turns properly. A small net gain but as usual no free lunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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David Murdoch, for me, the problem of completing a turn was because I relied on the edge, and relaxed the pressure, causing a scarve turn (skid/carve) By maintaining and controlling my pressure as well as edge, meant that I could complete a turn in a carve, and have a lot more control through it.
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easiski, I learnt about the big toe and was probably the single best thing anyone taught me. Got me from snowploughing to parellel turns in about 5 mins. Thank you Masterclass (Alpie D)!
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You know it makes sense.
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David Murdoch, Precisely my point - I've read loads of his stuff and watched several of his videos. I KNOW what he's talking about and I still have to read every paragraph twice at least to make any sense of it.
Wear The Fox Hat, Ah! You see no-one ever told you that you go on turning until you're pointing back up the hill!! Actually I once did a lesson in a BASI exam on this sort of thing. Where must you have most pressure on the skis, and what most novices actually do. I made all the candidates try turning by varying the pressure at different points of the turn to discover what the novice skier felt. OK it was a long time ago, and BASI hated it (I failed), but I thought it was an interesting concept for an assessment!
I should say, that the name Easiski is not a random choice - I really believe in making the whole experience of ski-ing as easy as possible, while inspiring my students to want to go on learning, and to regard being in control as normal. Over the years I've picked up loads of new ideas (or remembered long forgotten ones), sometimes from students, which means that the exact way I teach tends to change a little every year. You discover something new that works, or a new phrase, or find that the emphasis shifts as the equipment changes etc. Having said that, I've never changed my feelings about snowplough and snowplough turns because I find that's what works best. I've tried every other method ever invented, and found the students didn't progress as well. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| easiski wrote: |
Wear The Fox Hat, Ah! You see no-one ever told you that you go on turning until you're pointing back up the hill!! Actually I once did a lesson in a BASI exam on this sort of thing. Where must you have most pressure on the skis, and what most novices actually do. I made all the candidates try turning by varying the pressure at different points of the turn to discover what the novice skier felt. OK it was a long time ago, and BASI hated it (I failed), but I thought it was an interesting concept for an assessment!
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Yeah, day one lesson one Breckenridge a few years back...
Me: "What do you mean by completing the turn?"
Inst: "Keep going until you're up the hill"
Me: "What?"
This was what then led to the exercise which showed where I was taking the pressure off.
My only explanation: It was my first proper lesson since I'd been taught by the ESF.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wear The Fox Hat, interesting - do you move your pressure "backwards" along the ski as the turn develops?
It's funny, one of the addictive elements of this site is that so many folks spend a lot of time thinking about what one does while skiing. I do too, but find it rather difficult to articulate, which almost certainly would make me a bad "natural" teacher. Whereas there is a great deal of fine description on SHs.
easiski, too true, why should learning be difficult? Or, at least, not any harder than it intrinsically needs to be.
Have good weekends all! (Time to go get train to Glasgow as BA seem to have rather made a mess of the All Day Deli today. All Day pain in the erse I think...)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Murdoch, I don't think I move my pressure back - get my skis onto edge, and get the pressure on the centre of the ski, and just keep it there.
Sometimes I guess it does start towards the tip, and move back to the centre, but those turns never work out as well.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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easiski,
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| Why doesn't PMTS like the big toe? It's simple, people can relate to it, and they pretty much all achieve it - contrary to what you say it puts the ski on the edge right at the beginning of the turn, not flat, not skidded, you just have to ride the edge. |
Well look at how most people ski. They start their turns with a wedge entry. Maybe people think there is nothing wrong with that. I think its intermediate skiing.
That's why I looked at PMTS, and it is the only thing to me that makes sense and gives real skiing progress. (Granted I am not familiar with the european offerings, and HH usually attacks PSIA.)
So why PMTS focuses so much on the inside foot/leg is because that tipping movement to the little toe edge is much more difficult and less natural than getting to the big toe edge on the other ski. Which explains why people don't usually have a problem getting on to their big toe edge, unless they have poor alignment and are bowlegged but thats another story)
The thing is, you concentrate on the inside foot tipping, the other foot takes care of itself on getting to the BTE.
If you get a clean release from your old downhill ski, you can get a high c or early engagement of the new stance foot(downhill ski) without skiding. However, if skiers focus on jamming on the new big toe edge of the new downhill ski, chances are the old downhill ski will still be on its big toe edge also, and then you get a wedge and the classic 'pick up the inside ski and pull it parallel to the new downhill ski', which you see skiers doing everywhere.
Seriously, you guys have to check out PMTS. I see SCSA was here a few months ago, did he interest anyone in pmts?[/quote]
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 12-08-05 17:11; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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He just posted and left. No sign since, unfortunately.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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So, bejes, back to my earlier question. Explain how to turn to me, as if I am a complete novice...
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Wear The Fox Hat, Well I think i would do better if i was demonstrating at the same time.
trying to explain jut in words is more difficult. When you can demonstrate it's clearer.
I would be talking about tipping movements, free foot and stance foot which people understand when you are standing on a slope and you have explained it to them.
There is a whole progression from never ever to linked turns on a green slope, which covers the green level cert. BUt thats too much typing for me to do now.
And its friday and my head is full of junk.
Better yet ask harald or dianna for their ideas which will be better than mine.
Over beer is better. Bear in mind the PMTS material on line isn't so up to date. WTFH, where are you goign skiing this year? Im thinkin of italy, maybe some utah action.
I think i saw a photo of you skiing on ski.com.au, and from a pmts view would say, pull your free foot back, get a narrower stance and use counterbalance. That would fix a lot of your problems. Ill explain when we have that beer.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Well, I am a very satisfied PMTS customer, and I don't believe it's all marketing. There are huge communication problems though!
I was taught the snowplough, stem, parallel(ish) progression twenty five years ago. It left me with a pronounced step from big toe edge to big toe edge - a wedge entry.
How is this avoided today?
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bejes, Wow, I'm impressed you can tell if someone has specific ski problems from 1 photo. That's amazing.
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