 Poster: A snowHead
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Dunk, thanks, but not sure I understand. If I want to slip do I reduce my edge angle and let momentum slip me out of the radius I would otherwise follow if carving? Can you still follow a curve if slipping, or will you always slip down the fall line?
By BASI's definition, is skidding actively breaking the edge 'bite' you get when carving? Do you break the bite by rotation or by pushing the ski?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar.org.uk, Skidding = edged ski loosing grip (skidded turn). Sliding = flat ski. Hope that helps !
So skidding - (just like a car) happens when you have overcome the skis ability to grip the snow - which happens when you don't have the correct balance of pressure, edge and rotation.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Here is my take on how to execute a jump turn.
You are on a slope steep enough to require a jump turn, a narrow enough to force you to do one. You are in a comfortable position, with your skis perpendicular to the fall line and your upper body (i.e. chest) facing down the fall line.
There exists in your core muscles some energy stored since your core is twisted. If somebody picked you up, your lower body would rotate and your skis would face down the fall line. The jump turn involves utilising this stored energy by taking the pressure off your skis and whislt allowing your skis to assume the more natural position, completing the turn and having your skis perpendicular to the fall ine again. You don't have to leap into the air, or force yourself up off a pole, but if you don't relieve the pressure from your skis they won't move. The pole plant, as with most pole plants, is used as both a mental stimulus and that by placing the pole down the fall line, it ensures you are in the right position.
When you jump turn, lean towards the fall line, plant your pole down the fall line, not in front of your ski tips, bend, extend and turn your hips. Don't concern yourself at first with getting 180 deg straight away, make sure you get past 90 and that you control the landing, i.e. you dictate how you land rather than hammering the snow. Double pole planting can help you by preventing your uphill arm from trailing.
I don't believe the 'rotating around the tips' thing will give you a jump turn. I use that a lot on steep terrain, it gives really smooth execution, but not jump turns. You should only been jump turning when things are narrow or sketchy, even the steepest terrain doesn't necessarily require jumps.
There. Easy. 50 degree couloir here you come.
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flicksta, That's a really good explanation but
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Double pole planting can help you by preventing your uphill arm from trailing
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Where exactly do you plant the other pole? (No rude answers please  )
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Both down the fall line, one either side of it. You only really need to do it if you trail your upper arm, which keeps your body away from the fall line, Once you get used to it, you can stop. However, if you imagine planting both your poles down the fall line, your body must be facing down.
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Rotating around the tips will give you more of a hop but it is still a good turn to add to your armour. The more the merrier..!!
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| flicksta wrote: |
| Both down the fall line, one either side of it. You only really need to do it if you trail your upper arm, which keeps your body away from the fall line, Once you get used to it, you can stop. However, if you imagine planting both your poles down the fall line, your body must be facing down. |
wouldn't this cause you to be facing up the hill at the end of the turn? or do you try to jump between the poles? sounds like a recipe for tangled limbs!
i've only ever seen jump turns executed with the poles either side of the skis at the beginning of the turn. always thought this would cause the uphill arm to be left behind
as you may guess, I'm not a big fan of the double pole plant!
other than that, i reckon flicksta is spot on. using the your core a bit like a spring IMO is the key to (relatively) effortless and accurate jump turns. and jump turns are rarely really necessary
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sounds like a recipe for tangled limbs!
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To me too
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| wouldn't this cause you to be facing up the hill at the end of the turn? or do you try to jump between the poles? sounds like a recipe for tangled limbs! |
Interesting, I've had to mentally turn a few (never a shame) to think why that doesn't happen. Essentially, you plant your poles down the fall line, jump turn, at the same time lifting your poles from the snow, almost turning underneath them. In the same way that a pole plant on the piste doesn't end up with your pole behind you, because you lift it up and carry on. For me, the pole plant in any turn is really just for inititation, almost like a catalyst, it plays a part, but only in facilitation rather than actual function.
These days, I don't double pole plant when I jump turn, I don't think you should if you can do it without. It was something taught to me when I was struggling on some steep stuff and trailing my upper arm.
I believe it would be better to learn without if possible, but it did help me for a while.
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Double pole planst are best used to rescue a position where you may have got caught on the back of the skis. Mogul skiers and jumpers used to set the position this way. If I need a committed jump turn then I want support of the pole plant as well as the turn initiation.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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flicksta's description is very good. personally I don't like double pole plants but, as he says, they are an option not a requirement. I'd add one more suggestion: when I first tried jump turns I tried to use a lot of turning force and a high jump to clear the skis from the snow. Flicksta points out this is not necessary (actually very unhelpful!). One guy I skied with told me to concentrate on lifting my tails towards my backside (tips lowered down the hill) - this is much less tiring, clears the tails from the uphill and allows the skis to move parallel to the slope. It's a jump down the hill.
By the way, on the carving point, I think 10% is a big overestimate of the proportion of skiers that really carve. A couple of years ago I skied down that red run from the Grand Montets to Argentiere (you'd have thought there would be a good standard of skier there) and few were carving railroads. I actually got into trouble because my line kept taking me up the hill at the end of the turn and so many skiers were skidding more directly down the hill that someone nearly hit me from behind.
J
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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flicksta's description is very good. personally I don't like double pole plants but, as he says, they are an option not a requirement. I'd add one more suggestion: when I first tried jump turns I tried to use a lot of turning force and a high jump to clear the skis from the snow. Flicksta points out this is not necessary (actually very unhelpful!). One guy I skied with told me to concentrate on lifting my tails towards my backside (tips lowered down the hill) - this is much less tiring, clears the tails from the uphill and allows the skis to move parallel to the slope. It's a jump down the hill.
By the way, on the carving point, I think 10% is a big overestimate of the proportion of skiers that really carve. A couple of years ago I skied down that red run from the Grand Montets to Argentiere (you'd have thought there would be a good standard of skier there) and few were carving railroads. I actually got into trouble because my line kept taking me up the hill at the end of the turn and so many skiers were skidding more directly down the hill that someone nearly hit me from behind.
J
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jedster, an interesting point re the home run from GMs.
IRC correctly it's quite narrow (?), bumpy (?) and generally often in poor condition (?). I like to think I carve quite a lot but suspect I'd spend most of that descent skiing very very defensively.
Also, if it's home run after spending the day ziplining the bumps then having the energy to do anything bar sideslip would suggest you shouldn't be on the way home yet!
Maybe we're back to that "carving" definition argument again? 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| IRC correctly it's quite narrow (?), bumpy (?) and generally often in poor condition (?). I like to think I carve quite a lot but suspect I'd spend most of that descent skiing very very defensively. |
I don't remember it as being that narrow or bumpy, although parts of it are I think, but it's definitely been in poor condition most times I've skied it. It's also often VERY busy which would impact people's approach. I agree - I've probably skied it defensively in the past as well.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| alan empty wrote: |
| David Murdoch wrote: |
| IRC correctly it's quite narrow (?), bumpy (?) and generally often in poor condition (?). I like to think I carve quite a lot but suspect I'd spend most of that descent skiing very very defensively. |
I don't remember it as being that narrow or bumpy, although parts of it are I think, but it's definitely been in poor condition most times I've skied it. It's also often VERY busy which would impact people's approach. I agree - I've probably skied it defensively in the past as well. |
it's a great run IF you do it before everyone starts using it to go home. almost all of it is eminently carveable when it's quiet
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Arno, alan empty, ski, I will confess I've only done it maybe 3 times, mostly towards the end of the season when it most certainly was narrow, lumpy, slushy, full of people, etc. Not one to take aggressively. So maybe not enough observations to make a full and firm judgement!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The only time you can hack the Pic is in the morning when it is in the best condition of the day and empty, but who wants to do that often when the GM is up top and waiting. My abiding memory of that run is a very fast side slip - because it is always bare of snow late in the day. Too much hassle to bother - and too tired - to ski it last thing so a mammoth slide from top to bottom. It cracks me up just to think of it. This huge scraping sound of me and my buddy just side-slipping past people....!!!
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Anyone tried the coulours from the chair..?? That would take the hassle out of the 4 o'clock run...!!
You can see it from the bars at the bottom by the cable car - can't recall the name...!!
Scoped it a few times and I'd love to do it but I have only seen tracks a few times so snow condition must be an issue, as of course, must be the skiing. If the locals aren't doing it that must be a pointer...!!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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JT, there are two or three from memory. I've done one which goes under the telecabine and joins the piste near the bottom. Quite steep near the top and not great snow when I did it. Lots of side slipping around protruding bushes at first. Fun, and certainly better than taking the piste last thing in the day. Not the most memorable run tho
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Arno, reminds me I think of the run to the car park from the Glencoe plateau. Very old memory though...
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It's narrow at the top (below the cable-car station) and generally bumpy but when it turns hard left it opens up and is plenty wide enough for carving. You actually don't need that much space to carve if you get enough angulation. Yes it's normally in crappy condition but you can carve slush too! (I guess as long as there's something a bit firmer below it). The time I was talking about was a monday afternoon in early Jan. The whole valley was pretty quiet and had been at the weekend when quite a lot of lifts were shut for high winds).
I'm not a headbanger. The skiers who caused me problems were not skiing defensively (those are easy to avoid) they were skiing pretty directly down the fall line, at a fast rate of vertical descent, but skidding to control speed rather than carving and using gravity.
J
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JT, having thought further, I think I know the one you mean. i was going to do it last time i was in chamonix. a guide we hired said it was a good idea to take crampons in case you got into it and it was icy. was all set on the last day of the trip to do it, then suffered a severe case of hangover-induced apathy and decided I couldn't face it.
a sorry tale...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Arno,
We have looked at it everytime recently but apart from that first time when we noticed tracks we haven't seen anyone else in it.
We have had a look over the lip and it looks ok and will need a bit of slipping here and there but the snow wasn't good enough to just do it. But bearing in mind the locals aren't in it all day every day ought to tell you something.
Best take those sort of hints...!!
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JT, seem to remember our guide saying you could get into two couloirs there. they both look pretty good from the valley. however, one actually is good but the other is all rocky and unpleasant
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Arno,
Best take the crampons and a guide then if we get back there but there are other places to visit so not sometime soon, I feel.
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