 Poster: A snowHead
|
| DB wrote: |
| My best skiing advice comes from the people at resorts/mountains, ....... |
I can quite understand that in the context of your post. I could advise on Halifax cycling trails better than they could, which is the same point in reverse, but they could have an opinion on how they compared to other areas.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
All: sorry, I got a bit carried away. A late night and a bit of hassle on another front coloured my thoughts. But essentially I feel my sentiments were right, you can have fun on any hill with snow (whatever its quality) on it. It may not be 'challenging', but that shouldn't be all you're looking for. I believe that a beginner can have a great ski holiday at pretty much any resort (well maybe not MK - but Madrid might be fun) and ferocious intercine argument over the merits or otherwise are counter productive for the questions asked at the top of this thread.
I may be seeing it wrong and if so I apologise wholeheartedly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Masque, I'm starting to come to the same conclusion; if you enjoy sliding on snow, then there is no such thing as a bad hill covered in the stuff.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| gregh wrote: |
IMHO most opinions on here are very biased, look at the huge anti Salomon threads, and other such OTT threads on the benefits of certain hardware.
|
And this is a case in point. Why is it bias? I can't detect any anti-Salomon bias, in fact rather the reverse on a forum wide basis. Are other people opinions on what's clearly a fairly subjective matter not valid purely because you don't agree?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Masque,
I agree with you on your main point - a beginner skier would probably be happy in a resort with a couple of T-bars. Beginner skiers tend to like quieter pistes, flatter terrain and something else to do as their ski legs don't normally keep them going all day yet. There are loads of little village resorts all over Austria (and the rest of the Alps apparently) that fulfil this criteria and would be great for beginners providing they have snow. They tend to be lower and are where the locals take their youngsters to learn but being low they are not so snow secure.
A resort without much (and slushy) snow could be enough to put any learner off skiing for life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Is snowHeads more truthful than the Government, would you say? [skipping back a few postings]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads is a Weapon of Mass Destraction.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Masque, This is true, as I mentioned on the original topic about smaller resorts being overlooked - a beginner doesn't need a large resort.
DB, Some learners could indeed be put off by any bad condition; fog, ice, extreme cold, high winds, lifts,slush, rocks, grass, high winds, blizzards etc etc. Some of these hazards you'd encounter in some of the larger resorts and not the smaller ones, and vise versa.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
DB, The quality of your posts will speak for themselves. The lack of quality of some others' posts will speak for themselves. Responsible posting is to be encouraged, but I can see no way of regulating/ensuring this without discouraging people from posting generally. I'd rather see it stay friendly with lots of carefree posts of very variable quality than have it feel repressed, restrictive and prescriptive with only very few people feeling free enough to post their high quality posts. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how little its factual basis or how unobjective it is. This is a public forum and I assume they have the right to express that opinion here unless admin says they can't (or it breaks some other rule). If you see something you perceive to be wrong, correct it constructively and positively and I for one will be grateful to you for that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I will freely admit I have never been to Austria, although we have nearly gone twice. We didn't go for reasons other than the snow (cash mainly), but ended up relieved we didn't as friends said snow was poor, ski bus unreliable and walk for the kids too long. Probably just a bad choice of resort,and a poor year, we've had them in France too I'd still love to visit Austriasometime, and yes Switzerland too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| slikedges wrote: |
| DB, The quality of your posts will speak for themselves. The lack of quality of some others' posts will speak for themselves. Responsible posting is to be encouraged, but I can see no way of regulating/ensuring this without discouraging people from posting generally. I'd rather see it stay friendly with lots of carefree posts of very variable quality than have it feel repressed, restrictive and prescriptive with only very few people feeling free enough to post their high quality posts. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how little its factual basis or how unobjective it is. This is a public forum and I assume they have the right to express that opinion here unless admin says they can't (or it breaks some other rule). If you see something you perceive to be wrong, correct it constructively and positively and I for one will be grateful to you for that. |
By pointing out that it's a public forum, you've hit the nail on the head. It's the equivalent of a pub conversaion - some people will happily talk beyond their experience, while some will limit themselves to areas thay have definite knowledge of. That's why the number of postings from a particular contributor shouldn;t be taken as a guide to the reliability of the contribution. (No offence intended to our regular contributors by this comment, by the way, as sometimes those who talk at length are experts in their subject) In practice, people grow to know whose contributions are worth listening to. It's tricky for those who walk in not knowing the people they're chatting to - but that's life!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Alastair wrote: |
| By pointing out that it's a public forum, you've hit the nail on the head. It's the equivalent of a pub conversaion - some people will happily talk beyond their experience, while some will limit themselves to areas thay have definite knowledge of. That's why the number of postings from a particular contributor shouldn;t be taken as a guide to the reliability of the contribution. (No offence intended to our regular contributors by this comment, by the way, as sometimes those who talk at length are experts in their subject) In practice, people grow to know whose contributions are worth listening to. It's tricky for those who walk in not knowing the people they're chatting to - but that's life! |
I think analogies are always a little suspect, in this case, it's more unlike a pub conversation than alike. To say that in practice people know what's likely to be correct may be true although by no means certain, but, doesn't help when first timers are looking for information.
A lot of this stuff is just simple repetition of a narrative by people who've heard it so often they believe it to be true or use it as a means of demonstrating their insider status. Use of narrative in this way is a well documented social practice used by groups to establish their identity and exclude outsiders.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| DB wrote: |
It's also a lot easier for others (esp newbies) to read {a post you think is wrong} and come to the correct conclusion (esp. when you politely ask {the poster} to qualify it and they don't play ball)
|
Like I said before, if you believe a post to be wrong it might be better to say
| slikedges wrote: |
I'm not sure you're right. I have lived/done whatever and my experience is x so I'd recommend y, despite what numerous books, articles etc say as they may have a vested interest.
|
Most people don't have the time to spend looking for the references - hence the vast majority of everyone's posts were and still are unreferenced. If one wishes to reference one's opinion, go ahead, it might add authority to one's opinion, but most won't have the time/be bothered to do it.
What I have started to notice over the last several days though, is people saying, "imho, i'm no expert but, in my personal experience, it's just what i think" etc for fear of being flamed. I've just put all that jazz down as my signature, so I don't have to keep typing it, and actually I just think it should be taken as read on a public forum.
| DB wrote: |
Having said all that I have only as much right to post here as most others members, if you want to post complete ballcocks there's absolutely nothing I or others (except the Forum police) can do about it (other than flame you).
|
I know you posted that tongue in cheek, but that is exactly how the war begins.
| slikedges wrote: |
| In the most general of terms Austrian resorts lack height (not so snow sure) and ski convenience (ie you usually need to catch a ski bus to get to the slopes) but gain in alpine atmosphere and the friendliness of the locals. |
This is the line that has spawned all this. From all the discussion surrounding it, it is obvious that if indeed it is wrong, it is a very widely held misconception by other snowHeads and much of the media (whether or not in good faith). You and ise may have extensive personal experience of Austrian skiing but I'm afraid that is very far from proof that what I have stated is wrong. Objectively, I still find it difficult to see how what I stated could be that far from the truth that the statement deserved flaming. In retrospect however, I can see that it may not have been very diplomatic, but I really hadn't thought about that beforehand. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
This is a fuller quote
| slikedges wrote: |
In the most general of terms Austrian resorts lack height (not so snow sure) and ski convenience (ie you usually need to catch a ski bus to get to the slopes) but gain in alpine atmosphere and the friendliness of the locals.
French resorts offer the opposite. I ski mostly in France because I go to ski. I want pretty much guaranteed good snow and near enough ski-in ski-out convenience from my door.  The big resorts in France are Val D'Isere/Tignes (Espace Killy), Les Arcs/La Plagne (Paradiski) and Val Thorens{-Les Menuires}/Meribel/Courchevel (Trois Vallee). These are the ones in France the average skier in the street mention most often and are the most popular. There are a zillion others though and many experienced skiers favourites are often not the big ones I've listed above!. |
I didn't flame you, just tried to see how you had come to that conclusion. Noticed that you didn't say where you had skied in Austria so I asked you but you didn't reply to that.
If you want to make your mind up about Austrian resorts without even visiting them yourself then fine. I don't comment on many French/Swiss resorts because I've only skied a few and others here know them better than I do. I certainly wouldn't comment on a resort I hadn't visited without qualifying it. Even when people send me PM's about Austria resorts I let them know if I or someone I know has skied it. Where possible I certainly advise them if it has a good/bad snow reliabilty history and don't say it's a good resort just because I'm in Austria.
Over the last 5 or so years I've had friends in Geneva and Zurich and have always been comparing the snow. They have often said "if the snows no good your end of the Alps then come over". I've never been in a position where there was much more snow in France or Switzerland than in Austria. Often we all had much the same levels (good or bad) but often Austria had more.
It's no skin of my nose where you ski - I have no financial interests in any Austrian ski resort. What perhaps deserved flaming was the fact that you were trying to make out it was black and white that France was much more snow secure and hence better than Austria. I don't believe this to be true and neither do others who actually live or have lived in the alps.
Never forget ski guides contain a lost of advertising, brochures are designed to get punters to resorts and most of the resorts in the brochures for the UK market are French.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| DB wrote: |
What perhaps deserved flaming was the fact that you were trying to make out it was black and white that France was much more snow secure and hence better than Austria. I don't believe this to be true and neither do others who actually live or have lived in the alps.
|
I agree it was put badly, hence still on Page 1 of the original "Advice" thread
| slikedges wrote: |
What I am prepared to say is that re-reading my original post it would sound like I think France is the only place worth skiing. I don't think that. I just think as I don't have a lot of time a year when I can go skiing, France is the most expedient and efficient for my requirements. It's nearer, has big, high areas and generally more ski convenient accommodation so I can choose more easily without having to try too hard. I appreciate that I could go to Obertauern, Obergurgl, maybe Ischgl, Lech, a place with a glacier Hintertux etc but France is just easier for me. I apologise for appearing to be dismissive of what may be your favourite areas.
DB, you can probably go when you know there's snow. I'll stick to high, snowy and soul-less buildings, I'm afraid.
|
I do take your very first point but I don't believe that going to Austria more than the once I went 12 or so yrs ago will cause me to reposition it in my list of places to consider, just because of how I prioritise my selection criteria.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
What seems to be completely missing in this thread is any mention that in ANY resort, in ANY country, at ANY altitude and at ANY time of year you can have good or bad conditons. Those of us who are lucky to ski a lot (or as a profession, or linked to one) see how variable the patterns are. I can't count how many times I've heard people say "I went to ********* but it was icy all over - I won't go there again" or similar about snow, sun, wind, rain, lack of any of the above! In Les Oisans we have an average 300 days sunshine a year (Sarah@Alpe D'Huez will attest to this also), but that does not mean we don't get enough snow, neither does it mean that in YOUR week's holiday are you pretty much guaranteed sun. Anything can happen anywhere in the mountains, and usually does. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
easiski, true. I went to Val Thorens in late January one year - boiler plate - and that was in the good spots.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
slikedges,
When a newbie has to read through the first advice thread he/she might not get further than the first couple of pages. People said you were wrong, and that is what you are asking people to do in later posts. I don't see what your problem is and this thread could go on for ever.
Noticed that a few people are now changing their posts where better info comes to light leaving an easy to read mostly non-conflicting thread produced from the input of many here. That's going to make it easier for newbies and easier for us if we go back to the thread some time later.
Ski where you want but if you only stick to the big resorts in one ski country there's a lot you will be missing. It's possible that another country or area of the same country will have much better snow conditions. Generally it's much the same across the alps (good / bad) and timing becomes more important than location (book late).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| slikedges wrote: |
I do take your very first point but I don't believe that going to Austria more than the once I went 12 or so yrs ago will cause me to reposition it in my list of places to consider, just because of how I prioritise my selection criteria. |
No, nor should it, that's your prerogative obviously. It should clearly stop you telling other people not to go or making sweeping generalisations though.
So in summary, the advice given was based on a one visit 12 years ago and someone who read it in a book 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ise, it's also my prerogative to tell people my opinion and many sweeping generalisations are, in a general sweep, correct - no one has yet in any way come close to proving mine wrong either - I'm still looking forward to that. As far as advice without personal experience goes, lots of what I do, tell people and teach everyday, is from a book or some other kind of second-hand source. Personal experience is very helpful, but except where multiple repetitions are involved, is ultimately just anecdotal and a drop in the ocean of representative facts and figures.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| slikedges wrote: |
| ise no one has yet in any way come close to proving mine wrong either - I'm still looking forward to that. |
Arrrgh, the hole just gets deeper ....
No one who lives in the Alps (me, Ise, PG or Easiski) has backed your view. We have politely tried to tell you it's not correct but you still take this stance based on ski guides brochures and one trip to Austria 12 years ago.
Spent too much time bickering about this - you made the point you prove it correct on your time. Come back to us with snow reports that prove France is so much better and is much more snow secure than Austria etc.
Let me put it another way if an Austrian or Frenchman tried to tell you about Britain based on one trip and a few guides/brochures when you had lived there for years. Where would you tell him to shove his paperwork and advice?
By all means have the last word but unless you come up with real proof I won't bother replying.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| slikedges wrote: |
| Personal experience is very helpful, but except where multiple repetitions are involved, is ultimately just anecdotal and a drop in the ocean of representative facts and figures. |
Which bit of "we live here" is causing you a problem? Having lived in Southern Germany, France and Switzerland I can speak for France, Austria and Switzerland. Anyone that wants to tell me I'm missing out by not skiing in Italy too much would be completely right 
Your "ocean" of facts and figures isn't in much danger of drowning anyone just yet either, in fact only Ray Zorro posted any figures at all which are a long way from supporting your point whereas you've supplied none at all unless I missed them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
DB, This isn't about the last word. This is about that everyone else believes their opinion to be true, and yet you know that yours is correct (sorry, Kramer). I made a point. It may be wrong. It is received wisdom and the general (mis)conception. Many believe it because they regard the sources as relatively impartial. You disagree. You express that. I'm am not convinced. That's it. I have nothing to prove because I was simply stating the general opinion. You're the one who disagreed with it, so you're the one to disprove it, if you are to set us all straight properly. Otherwise it will be for other users to decide for themselves purely on their own subjective judgement.
I reiterate, I did not say all Austrian resorts are low, snow unsafe and not worth going to. I said that in the most general of terms Austrian resorts lack height and are not so snow sure. Even you said book late and pick the ones where you know there is snow. This is real mountain molehill stuff.
ise, the personal experience v. representative data thing is a general statement. See my response to DB.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Ok a little bit from me, as a WengenHead I've been going to Wengen for over 30 years at various times of the season, now I keep reading in various publications how Wengen is unreliable for snow, well I'd like to say this, in all the time I've been going there I've had more time unable to ski due to too much snow than I've had being unable to ski due to too little snow.
As with any resort in the world you are dependant on the weather, yes higher resorts will be more likely to get snow but they need more of it as the higher you go the more snow the underlying ground tends to need on it in order to be able to ski over it, low lying resorts mainly in Switzerland and Austria tend to have wide open fields of grass which only requires a covering of arround 30 cm or 12 inches of snow to be able to ski over happily, although obviously more snow tends to be better, in higher areas rocks on the ground can be over 50 cm in height so snow must be sufficiently deep to safely cover these rocks so a piste machine can pass over the top.
In addition lower resorts have other potential benefits, treeline skiing helps you ski in blizzard conditions as it gives you better visability, lower resorts often mean warmer resorts which makes going out for apres ski activity more comfortable, some people also seem to suffer with altitude related problems in higher resorts, in the end you pay your money and take your choice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
easiski,
It's just my opinion but I live in Austria not France 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Oh, for god's sake...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
I've skied since 1959, but never lived in the Alps (though worked on Cairngorm for one winter).
For the Sunday Times I once commissioned extensive historical research of snow reports, though this was limited to the report sources available (from memory, Flaine and St Anton were well up there in terms of historic snow reliability).
Any correspondents based in the Alps are, of course, absolutely invaluable - particularly if they're able to report on snow (or consistent snow reliability) based on their own observations. Independent national sources of data from daily resort measurements are also very useful ... plus any objectively-located webcams (not so easy to find!).
The one general rule that holds true is that (north-facing) slopes above 1500m tend to accumulate snow well into March, and (north-facing) slopes above 2000m tend to accumulate snow well into April. The northern Alps tend to lose their snow some weeks later than the southern Alps.
Thus, if you've got to book well ahead, it's safest to be in the northern Alps in a high resort well into the spring for the deepest snow (and best weather). If you don't have to book well ahead then follow the advice of our Alps-based snowHeads and others to check out the resorts you might not otherwise ski - capturing them in prime condition.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| D G Orf wrote: |
| Ok a little bit from me, as a WengenHead I've been going to Wengen for over 30 years at various times of the season, now I keep reading in various publications how Wengen is unreliable for snow, well I'd like to say this, in all the time I've been going there I've had more time unable to ski due to too much snow than I've had being unable to ski due to too little snow. |
Actually, what you're saying there goes to the heart of my immense irritation with this topic Those of us poor ignorant saps who live round the corner and can see the Jungfrau out of our window are under the impression it's very reliable for snow.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Quote: |
slikedges,
Oh, for god's sake...
|
Now that's more like it, let's have a theological debate. What particular aspect would you suggest we discuss ...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| For the Sunday Times I once commissioned extensive historical research of snow reports, though this was limited to the report sources available (from memory, Flaine and St Anton were well up there in terms of historic snow reliability). |
The snow record in Flaine is superb actually, I was dubious, in fact I suspected it was one of these pieces of folk lore with vague references to snow shadows and micro-climates, but it's true, it does get a remarkable amount of snow.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Which given the big holes in parts of the domaine, it needs. Was it once a mining area? I think La Plagne was also once mined. I've never been in the summer to see the underlying terrain but there are some parts of LP (not usually skied) which look seriously lumpy even after huge snowfalls.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sat 2-07-05 15:11; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Ray, please, no! Not again!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| kuwait_ian wrote: |
| Which given the big holes in parts of the domaine, it needs. Was it once a mining area? I think La Plagne was also once mined. I've never been in the summer to see the underlying terrain but there are some parts of LP (not usually skied) which look seriously lumpy even after huge snowfalls. |
No, it's porus limestone, it takes a major amount of snow to fill the holes above Flaine, the rest of the domain doesn't suffer from the same problem though.
Like this :
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Here we go again .....
Sorry Charlotte, dropped off again 
. I 'll just conclude with this shot of me the last time I was in Pitztal...
