Does the "Intermediate Plateau" really exist?

A snowHead

maggi, it's also how some people try to ski powder.

A snowHead

easiski, Sounds so easy .... will just have to keep trying Sad

it will come one day

maggi, Don't know how long that fear really lasts ... instructors soon demonstrate how difficult it is to fall 'forwards' ... so I can't even use that one anymore ..

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

maggi, sometimes it might be but not always, there's a whole host of reasons for a bad stance, a good instructor howver will be able to ascertain what's wrong and put it right, a bad instructor of course will do nothing Mad

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D G Orf, the funny thing is, I had been skiing maybe 15 weeks in Europe and North America before anyone even mentioned stance to me.

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Wear The Fox Hat, not having seen you ski I don't know how good or bad your stance was

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Wear The Fox Hat, Ski teaching, like everything else in life is never static. Stance was less important with straight skis as we all pretty much stood on our heels and pushed the skis around anyway. Only the very best skiers in the world were really able to "carve" on those skis. Look at old films of heros like Stenmark - it's quite shocking!

However, as we're learning more about sport science, physiology and biomechanics, and with equipment now being designed to work WITH the human body, we're changing emphases all the time. With carvers, we're using the ski to work for us, so standing on the right part of our foot to allow this to happen has become much more important.

Basic stance problems now affect us in ways that it never used to, we've begun to realise it, and we've begun to address it.

Maggi, Leaning back can be caused by fear, but this fear can be overcome by technique. Once you stand correctly and in balance on your skis you feel so safe that you never look back. Having said that, any change in the way you ski must be practised on easy slopes until comfortable and then on a gentle progression of steeper slopes. If you learn something on a green, you can't immediately tranfer it to a black.

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Leaning back... ? I generally think if my shins are complaining that is ok. Bend zee knees, flex the angles, drop the hips, should all be getting the skier into the right position but if they can't recognise the right position it may not help much. I actually think it is easier to 'cheat' on carvers as the skis are turning machines by comparison, hence no poles for lots of people. On old 2m planks you had to work the ski. And of course, they were pretty crap by today's standards. I would hate to be on them now but it would be interesting to see how I now skied on them. I would probably bin them after 1 run..!!! Although I maintain great memories of the old Superforce 3s as it started me on the road to what I do know...!!

And race stiff boots are no joy for everyday skiing so forget about them unless you race...!!
They will harm your stance as much as anything else IMO.

JT, Dropping the hips is out nowadays! Hips over centre/ball of foot - stand on your BALLS!!!

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easiski,

Yes, I just included them as sayings of the day, and as for the other, I can just hear you screaming that all over the mountain...!!!!

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[quote="easiskiHaving said that, any change in the way you ski must be practised on easy slopes until comfortable and then on a gentle progression of steeper slopes. If you learn something on a green, you can't immediately tranfer it to a black.[/quote]

I know what you mean. My stance seems to vary from ok to totally crap with no inbetween. I just wish that I could sense it when I sit on my heels hehehe

Easiski said <Telling people to lean forward, without explaining HOW to lean forward is not remotely helpful. The ususal result is shoulders forward and down and bottom back and down - worst thing possible. You need to keep your hips forward and stand up as D G Orf, says, but flex the ankle. >

That's my problem. So what you are basically saying is lead with our genitals? hehehe Laughing

You know it makes sense.

Scarpa, not exactly Laughing

, starting at the ski, your ankles should be bent foward so that your knees are more or less above your toes, then your knees should be bent so that your hips are above your ankles (not behind them which is the sitting on the toilet position wink

) now for relaxed skiing your body should be roughly upright from the hips so looking from the side you could draw a line perpendicular to your skis from your ankles through your hips to your shoulders, for faster skiing you compress your body more so that your knees ankles and hips are bent more dropping the body closer and closer to the classic "egg" shape used by the down hill racers, at all times your center of mass should be above your feet.

I'm sure if I've got that wrong Alan or Charlotte will correct me wink

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

D G Orf, That's fine, but knowing Scarpa, thinking about leading with his genitals will probably work!!!

Alan Craggs, Yes but ......... If you walk down a very steep slope you'll find that although you lean back the pressure in on the balls of your feet if you wish to walk slowly. You also flex your ankle quite strongly. Most leaning back skiers have the pressure on their heels which = no control. To run faster down the hill you'll find that you lean forward, keep perpendicular to the slope and still have the pressure on the balls of your feet (and now your toes as well). Now, try to run down the hill in loops and you'll find that the slower you wish to go the more pressure you put on your balls (of feet) and the more you flex your ankles. When you attack the turns you lean more down the hill and project more into the turn. Try it (but not on the dendix)! Very Happy

Beginners and their arms ...... had one at the weekend who held them as though he was taking a picture with a camera! Puzzled

brian

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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brian, No-one could call you an intermediate skier! You're definitely in the advanced category. Your reasons for not having addressed your "old schoolness" are valid reasons and not excuses. Very Happy

I do think that WTFH, is using the term "intermediate plateau" in a slightly different way from the majority. most of the time when you hear someone say they're stuck on it, upon questioning it turns out that they haven't had lessons for a good while. When you're a novice, to a certain degree you'll improve with just getting in some miles and lifting your comfort zone. However there comes a point when you don't have enough technique to do more difficult things and need to learn the next stage. Sadly, many holiday skiers never understand (or are not told), that there are new things to learn to enable you to ski safely on more difficult pistes. they believe that week one is all you need. In consequence we get large numbers of poor skiers doing blacks and putting the rest of us in danger!

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easiski, In the true spirit of the intermediate plateau, do you not think there is a natural level for each person where the pace of progress slows, maybe a sort of naturally enforced consolidation period, before they can once again improve significantly?

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Arno, I don't think there is an absolute limit, but eventually you get to a point where the marginal improvement per hour spent becomes very small. One point of the thread was that I wanted to make sure that my opinion was not unique - that people using the IP as an excuse for not getting better, while claiming that they wanted to improve - was bogus. So your statement is absolutely correct.

slikedges, I would guess there's a lumpy learning curve, I'm now looking for my next "breakthrough" moment to get over my current flat spot.

easiski, I still agree with your opinion. I'm just pleased that I can be quite firm in my responses when someone tries to use "it" as an excuse for not getting better, not taking lessons, etc.

I don't agree that only the best skiers in the world (BSITW) could carve on skinny skis though. I humbly submit that I carved some really sweet non-skidding arcs out of my 7Ss in 1989...and I'm certainly not one of the BSITW, etc. Admittedly a bit more control input was required...

brian, I see your point, but wonder whether just one little hours instruction might not reap terrific rewards. I know some teachers will do an hours private lesson from 0800hrs which might not get in the way of anything else (except the alpine hangover)??

Wear The Fox Hat, I have to comment, sorry. Just how much adjustment do you do to your kit? Crikey, don't you think it suggests you should buy kit that works straight out of the shrink wrap? snowHead

JT, why would race boots do anything to your stance? My race boots are totally joyous for everyday skiing. maybe you have funny feet? wink

(apologies for the compound response)

After all it is free

slikedges, No-one's learning curve is smooth. It's as previously mentioned on this thread, a series of terraces. Where and when the "leaps" come varies a lot as well. Re: carving - do try to look at the old videos. It was very rare to see the beginning of the curve carved. The end, yes, but almost everyone actually "turned" the skis to some degree. I thought I carved too - until I got carving skis!!!

David Murdoch, I think there is an absolute limit for most people in terms of skill. Not everyone has the actual ability to ski to top level, after that there's the question of time and dedication which is a bit different. I will never be as good as, say Rosie Mittermaier (someone of my generation) because, sadly I don't have that much talent (and not enough dedication etc either). I'd like to be, but goals must be achievable.

Race boots are generally very stiff and not particularly comfortable - in fact if they're the real thing they bl**dy well hurt all the time. I'm currently on Flexon Pros (which could be considered a race boot, but having skied on the real thing I know they're not!)

Brian did exactly that when they were out here - one run down the glacier pinched from the kids' lesson to give him some idea of where to go - but he's a pretty good skier anyway.

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brian

easiski, thanks. I was kind of mentally putting myself on at least a semi-advanced plateau Very Happy

David Murdoch, easiski has pointed me in the right direction and I will be doing an hour or 2's instruction this winter once I've had a chance to practise a bit. It's not just the time for a lesson though, when you set out to improve something you require a fair bit of mental concentration and sometimes a couple of painful backward steps to go forward. I remember getting some golf lessons a few years ago after years as a happy hacker and while it did pay off, getting used to a "correct" grip and something more like a decent swing felt completely alien for a good while and I had to think hard every time I picked up the club.

Sometimes you just want to ski, if you know what I mean. It's a freedom thing.

brian, I do know what you mean!

Wear The Fox Hat, adjustable seats in cars is a bit like adjustable buckles on boot, non? I see what you mean but frankly hadn't heard of ramp angles until this forum. Maybe that's why I don't like my girlfriends P60s with Marker bindings? Fair point re getting things perfectly right though.

easiski, re carving, OK you might have a point. I can't visualise how I turned 8 years ago well enough to argue, but I'm sure you're judgement on this is better than mine!

Although, are we talking about slightly different things? Properly carved turns on skinny skis vs hanging on for the ride and letting shaped skis do all the work? wink

You know it makes sense.

David Murdoch,

I think very stiff Race boots would not work for a recreational skier as they may not be able to generate enough pressure to drive through the boot and this could hinder your ability to set your stance.

If you can't flex the ankles or bend the knees - whichever you prefer, because the boot is too stiff then that will set you back in your stance or hinder it.
Of course, if you ski fast enough then you may well generate enough force to ski a race boot. I tend to use the term Race to apply to professional racers and their kit, not what I call the marketing term 'race'. But if you can bend a race boot then no problems with using them.
I need a balance between comfort and peformance and my old Lange's were not at all comfortable...so I don't use very stiff boots anymore

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Wear The Fox Hat, What you say about ramp angles and so on is perfectly valid, and adjusting everything to suit you personally is definitely a bonus, especially when you ski a lot (I have conformable inner boots in the Flexons - cost an arm and a leg, but great). However all this stuff helps, but does not replace correct stanace etc. It may help you to achieve it, but if your stance and balance are good enough you should be able to pick up any boot/ski/binding mix and do it! (I don't say I'm in that league though!)

Years ago I remember Iain Finlayson ski-ing down the Cas on absolute sheet ice, soing beautiful turns when the rest of us were barely able to stand up. It later transpired that he was using an old pair of downhill skis that hadn't been sharpened or waxed for at least 3 years!! Wow!!

A snowHead

What is this with the female 'centre of gravity'? Is it proven to be different to a man's ? By how much ? Presumably they used a girl with a big bum and a nice slim guy ? What about a guy with a beer gut? Little Angel

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erica2004, the female CoG is lower and forward of the male, due, mainly to the pelvis.

Here's a slightly exagerated picture which shows it...

http://biomech.ftvs.cuni.cz/pbpk/kompendium/biomechanika/images/teziste.gif

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easiski, ooooh, that must have been fun to watch. Big grins in front of my screen at the thought of it!

Wear The Fox Hat, nope, the bindings are mounted as normally directed. But... I feel centred on my Rossis whereas I have to move the sweet spot a bit forward on her P60s. No big deal, just not automatic (but then I've skied "centred" on Rossis for ages). Had no issues (as it happens) on Stocklis SL and GS skis last season with Vist bindings which I THINK have no added ramp angle (???)

And OK, take your point about fully adjustable seats, just not all cars have em. What you're doing is removing the seat, replacing the rails in a different place, moving the dashboard, etc... (I think). But, you're right. If you were optimising your car for performance and could do those thing, then you would wouldn't you... I guess I just haven't got round to it.

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Wear The Fox Hat, I see from your diagram that the boy's centre of gravity is just where you'd expect it to be!!! Laughing

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Wear The Fox Hat, who's in the picture? I think it's Betty Rubble and Elvis Presley.

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After all it is free

My problem is that I can 'let go' and go fast on milder slopes but put me on a steep slope and I am always in snowplough trying to go slowly and not 'letting go' and it is the fear that's holding me back, fear of going faster and steeper. It's the fear of getting outside the comfort zone, and for me, fear of the unknown.
I think fear is a real problem and I wish there was a magic way to make it go away - it really does hold me back in all areas of life when my 'fear of the unknown' stops me from doing things I want to.
Just my little view on things there
julia snowHead

crazy_skier_jules, get someone to show you how to traverse a steep slope, that should make it easier for you

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D G Orf, thanks

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Does the "Intermediate Plateau" really exist?

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